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How the Record Industry should change?

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Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: spidey07
That's always the reasoning pirates use. You can't have it free to distribute legally - it's copyrighted work.

1) it should be free
2) pirating is really advertising!

How should the record industry change?
1) Stop the crappy recordings dead in their tracks
2) Continue radio as that is really the advertising to sell the product
3) When you buy a song or album it is yours listen to on any device you own
4) Online distribution option

i understand it's copyrighted work. and thus, the artists or copyright holders are entitled to be compensated their fair value for their expended effort in creating the song.

but how much is fair? and for how long should they be given that compensation? because reproducing the song is free, distributing the song should be free as well.

Fair is whatever the market will bear.

And if you don't want to pay for it that doesn't give you a right to have at it either.

the current prevalence of internet piracy as the MAIN distribution point of music has proven that the market wont bear the current legal prices of music.

the implicit costs of pirating music (chance of getting caught * penalties, implicit cost of guilt, etc) are vastly outweighted by the explicit cost of actually buying the music.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: spidey07
That's always the reasoning pirates use. You can't have it free to distribute legally - it's copyrighted work.

1) it should be free
2) pirating is really advertising!

How should the record industry change?
1) Stop the crappy recordings dead in their tracks
2) Continue radio as that is really the advertising to sell the product
3) When you buy a song or album it is yours listen to on any device you own
4) Online distribution option

i understand it's copyrighted work. and thus, the artists or copyright holders are entitled to be compensated their fair value for their expended effort in creating the song.

but how much is fair? and for how long should they be given that compensation? because reproducing the song is free, distributing the song should be free as well.

Fair is whatever the market will bear.

And if you don't want to pay for it that doesn't give you a right to have at it either.

the current prevalence of internet piracy as the MAIN distribution point of music has proven that the market wont bear the current legal prices of music.

the implicit costs of pirating music (chance of getting caught * penalties, implicit cost of guilt, etc) are vastly outweighted by the explicit cost of actually buying the music.

There should, then, be a substantial penalty those who unjustly enrich themselves
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Fayd
the current prevalence of internet piracy of music has proven that the market wont bear the current legal prices of music.

the implicit costs of pirating music (chance of getting caught * penalties, implicit cost of guilt, etc) are vastly outweighted by the explicit cost of actually buying the music.

Yeah, and I can shoplift stuff all the time and not get caught and the penalties are much less.

The only reason the market won't bear the legal price is because of you reasoning - that it should be free. The only way to combat this needs to be severe and immediate punishment. No civil suits - full criminal prosecution for copyright infringement. Once we can get copying music into all states law the problem will be taken care of.
 

schneiderguy

Lifer
Jun 26, 2006
10,801
91
91
Originally posted by: mugs
It's a good thing the record industry has you to tell them that they should give away albums for free and make money off their concerts. That's a brilliant idea considering that they're currently making money on both albums and concerts. :confused:

Artists make very little off of CD sales. With the internet there is no need for record companies. Distribution can be done via P2P or on the artists website. Advertising can be done through social networking sites or youtube. Artists could have a free digital download option and then a option to order a CD with lossless quality for $10 or something.

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
The mentality of those who are always trying to steal other's works and then try and justify it are quite disgusting.

I have around 23gb of music on my computer. 95% of it is pirated. I don't need to justify my "stealing". Whenever an artist I likes comes around me to tour I go see them and buy a t-shirt or other merchandise. The money they receive from that is more than if I would buy 10 of their CD's from which they make a few cents.

edit: Without illegal downloading I would not know 99% of the artists that I now love and go to see and support them. Without my horrible and unjust action of stealing of their works they would have never received a dime from me.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,611
13,816
126
www.anyf.ca
The "record" industry should just go away and artists be free to do what they want with their music. Seriously who buys CDs anymore? When they do, chances they're ripping them so you can have them on your PC, ipod etc. It's 2009, everything is on computers or computer-like devices. The record industry is WAY behind the days.

Making music easier to get = more chance of an artist being exposed. True fans will support the artist by donating or they'll go to the concert.

Also lot of people dont want to buy a cd knowing it's going to the same company that sues grandmothers, children, people with cancer, etc. IF the money actually went to the artists, I bet some people WOULD buy.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
OP,

You are forgetting that for some artists, the ALBUM is the ART. They may not even DO concerts. The Beatles stopped playing concerts pretty early in their recording careers because they wanted to focus on their albums as their art form. And that brings me to the next point:

What about artists or groups that are retired from active playing or are deceased? They get nothing?

As for ticket sales, merch, and endorsement deals? Many modern record contracts force artists to give up percentages of those now, making album sales more important to artist compensation than ever in order to be compensated.



The industry's main problem is this: I love music, prefer to buy CD's (and would prefer higher-quality physical media above even those), and listen to music forms that are relatively commercial. Yet when I turn on the radio, there isn't a single damn song I want to hear on any of the for-profit stations. I am simply astounded by the lack of taste of the programming directors and the labels that pay them to play their shit. When the most exciting current songs are being made by fashion princesses like The Bravery and Katy Perry, things are bad. I have to believe that even the lowest common denominator likes better music than that, because there have been periods when music was comparatively creative and challenging, and was also massively successful (late 60's/early 70's, early-mid 90's). There's decent music being made, but if I only get to hear it in one-hour blocks from a college radio station DJ, it doesn't have much chance of selling a million records and making lots of money for the industry.

If you look at the top sellers of 2008 (Lil' Wayne, Taylor Swift), they all sold less than 3 million records. That's shit. In the 90's, there were records selling more than 10 million copies. 3 million would have been considered "just ok." And I think that speaks very strongly to the fact that people just don't like the music that is being pushed.

The other problem is a reduction in music promotion venues. For all the talk of the internet, it does not have nearly the power for labels to push a specific act. When MTV was at its peak, a label could pay to play an artist there and be guaranteed that millions of people who liked music would hear the song. But MTV, VH1 and their spin-off channels are no longer promotion tools because they don't play music anymore. Most of the content isn't even RELATED to music. That means no one watches those channels because they like music. And since no other channels have sprung up to replace the mostly-music format, people who like music are left to their own devices to find new music (as mentioned, radio is a joke). They'll find some new music on their own on the internet or by word of mouth, but without having it force-fed on the couch, they aren't going to find as MUCH of it as they did before. And so they're going to hear less new music they like, and consequently have less desire to buy anything.

If the labels are smart, they will start their own television stations and use them for nothing but music promotion. Music television worked for labels in the 80's and 90's, but MTV figured out they could make more money doing other things and left the business. That doesn't mean it couldn't still work for the LABELs. So why not do it again, this time owned by the labels themselves? If they doubt the power of TV, look at iPod and similar advertisements that have made their background songs giant hits, often without even showing the name of the artist in the commercial. What comes after "1,2,3,4?" Anyone under the age of 50 can say "Tell me that you love me more," and its thanks to TV.
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
What about artists or groups that are retired from active playing or are deceased? They get nothing?

not to sound cold-hearted, but no, they get nothing.

if they have no incentive to continue producing music, then they get nothing. music they've already produced is a sunk cost, and not relevant to the decisionmaking.

or rather, the lack of an income creates an incentive to continue producing music.

there's another option, that limits the time of a copyright for music to something relatively short. (patents are what...7 years? something like that, in theory.)

er.... i'll get back to this.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,611
13,816
126
www.anyf.ca
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
What about artists or groups that are retired from active playing or are deceased? They get nothing?

not to sound cold-hearted, but no, they get nothing.

if they have no incentive to continue producing music, then they get nothing. music they've already produced is a sunk cost, and not relevant to the decisionmaking.

or rather, the lack of an income creates an incentive to continue producing music.

there's another option, that limits the time of a copyright for music to something relatively short. (patents are what...7 years? something like that, in theory.)

er.... i'll get back to this.

This makes sense.

If Microsoft decided they want to stop producing products, they'll stop making money too, once all their existing stock has sold.

Also what people forget is that music is ART. It should stop being treated as a product to make tons of money. It's an art, you do it because you have a passion not because you want to be millionaire. Then again, in today's world it's all about who can make the most money the fastest and easiest.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
What about artists or groups that are retired from active playing or are deceased? They get nothing?

not to sound cold-hearted, but no, they get nothing.

if they have no incentive to continue producing music, then they get nothing. music they've already produced is a sunk cost, and not relevant to the decisionmaking.

or rather, the lack of an income creates an incentive to continue producing music.

there's another option, that limits the time of a copyright for music to something relatively short. (patents are what...7 years? something like that, in theory.)

er.... i'll get back to this.

This makes sense.

If Microsoft decided they want to stop producing products, they'll stop making money too, once all their existing stock has sold.

Also what people forget is that music is ART. It should stop being treated as a product to make tons of money. It's an art, you do it because you have a passion not because you want to be millionaire. Then again, in today's world it's all about who can make the most money the fastest and easiest.

That's crazy talk. If I had a skill that could make me millions of dollars, I sure as hell wouldn't give it away for free. I'm sure Fayd the economist would agree with that.

 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
What about artists or groups that are retired from active playing or are deceased? They get nothing?

not to sound cold-hearted, but no, they get nothing.

if they have no incentive to continue producing music, then they get nothing. music they've already produced is a sunk cost, and not relevant to the decisionmaking.

or rather, the lack of an income creates an incentive to continue producing music.

there's another option, that limits the time of a copyright for music to something relatively short. (patents are what...7 years? something like that, in theory.)

er.... i'll get back to this.

This makes sense.

If Microsoft decided they want to stop producing products, they'll stop making money too, once all their existing stock has sold.

Also what people forget is that music is ART. It should stop being treated as a product to make tons of money. It's an art, you do it because you have a passion not because you want to be millionaire. Then again, in today's world it's all about who can make the most money the fastest and easiest.

That's crazy talk. If I had a skill that could make me millions of dollars, I sure as hell wouldn't give it away for free. I'm sure Fayd the economist would agree with that.

No but I bet if the world had changed to the point that you no longer needed the resources to record and distribute your music that only a large recording company could provide you would figure out how to make those millions for yourself rather than sign away your rights to a label.
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: RedSquirrel
Originally posted by: Fayd
Originally posted by: thomsbrain
What about artists or groups that are retired from active playing or are deceased? They get nothing?

not to sound cold-hearted, but no, they get nothing.

if they have no incentive to continue producing music, then they get nothing. music they've already produced is a sunk cost, and not relevant to the decisionmaking.

or rather, the lack of an income creates an incentive to continue producing music.

there's another option, that limits the time of a copyright for music to something relatively short. (patents are what...7 years? something like that, in theory.)

er.... i'll get back to this.

This makes sense.

If Microsoft decided they want to stop producing products, they'll stop making money too, once all their existing stock has sold.

Also what people forget is that music is ART. It should stop being treated as a product to make tons of money. It's an art, you do it because you have a passion not because you want to be millionaire. Then again, in today's world it's all about who can make the most money the fastest and easiest.

That's crazy talk. If I had a skill that could make me millions of dollars, I sure as hell wouldn't give it away for free. I'm sure Fayd the economist would agree with that.

there must be some reason for you to continue to produce with that skill...

if the music is already made, then you dont need a n incentive to produce the music. it's about new music, new artists, etc.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Fayd
there must be some reason for you to continue to produce with that skill...

if the music is already made, then you dont need a n incentive to produce the music. it's about new music, new artists, etc.

OK, I'm calling bullshit on you having any degree in economics or even knowing anything about it. It's not manufacturing.

Do you believe in patent laws? Or should I just copy your idea and make less than you off of YOUR work?
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Fayd
there must be some reason for you to continue to produce with that skill...

if the music is already made, then you dont need a n incentive to produce the music. it's about new music, new artists, etc.

OK, I'm calling bullshit on you having any degree in economics or even knowing anything about it. It's not manufacturing.

Do you believe in patent laws? Or should I just copy your idea and make less than you off of YOUR work?

yes, it is manufacturing. you are PRODUCING something. you are PRODUCING music. if you have already produced that music, then you dont need an incentive to produce THAT music. however, there might be an incentive for you to produce NEW music.

and willing to put your money where your mouth is?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Fayd

yes, it is manufacturing. you are PRODUCING something. you are PRODUCING music. if you have already produced that music, then you dont need an incentive to produce THAT music. however, there might be an incentive for you to produce NEW music.

and willing to put your money where your mouth is?

*sigh*
You just don't get it. The entitlement mentality is strong with you. To equate arts and entertainment with actual manufacturing makes my point.
 
Dec 10, 2005
28,806
14,005
136
If anything, copyright laws need to be reworked first.
-None of this life + 90 years (or whatever it is now) bullshit or anything like that. It should be 20-30 years that you can hold the copyright, and then it enters the public domain. If it's something like Mickey Mouse, you can still protect it through trademarks. There is no reason why music made in the 40s, 50s, and 60s should still be under copyrights. 20-30 years gives enough time to make back costs and make money on the product. It also keeps people from buying an artist's catalog as an investment to sit on for 50 years.

As far as the music industry is then concerned -
1) Stop playing the same 200 songs on the radio. Allow more variation and stop pushing crappy music.
2) Clean house and streamline the management.
3) Embrace digital distribution, but don't give up on physical media. I personally enjoy buying CDs from artists that I like. I'd rather have a hard copy for the most part (unless it's some single, etc...).
3a) Stop pushing restrictive DRM schemes; it only hurts the consumer.
3b) Offer music in lossless codecs and keep them the same price. Something in flac should be cheap to distribute too since it is open source and free to use. Though, you would need media programs that could convert flac to a portable audio player format.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
If anything, copyright laws need to be reworked first.
-None of this life + 90 years (or whatever it is now) bullshit or anything like that. It should be 20-30 years that you can hold the copyright, and then it enters the public domain. If it's something like Mickey Mouse, you can still protect it through trademarks. There is no reason why music made in the 40s, 50s, and 60s should still be under copyrights. 20-30 years gives enough time to make back costs and make money on the product. It also keeps people from buying an artist's catalog as an investment to sit on for 50 years.

As far as the music industry is then concerned -
1) Stop playing the same 200 songs on the radio. Allow more variation and stop pushing crappy music.
2) Clean house and streamline the management.
3) Embrace digital distribution, but don't give up on physical media. I personally enjoy buying CDs from artists that I like. I'd rather have a hard copy for the most part (unless it's some single, etc...).
3a) Stop pushing restrictive DRM schemes; it only hurts the consumer.
3b) Offer music in lossless codecs and keep them the same price. Something in flac should be cheap to distribute too since it is open source and free to use. Though, you would need media programs that could convert flac to a portable audio player format.

Very sensible. Gimme the "in the studio" sound I want and I'll pay handsomely for it. But I know I'm in the severe minority on this aspect and will still hunt it down and pay for what I want.
 

Fayd

Diamond Member
Jun 28, 2001
7,970
2
76
www.manwhoring.com
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Fayd

yes, it is manufacturing. you are PRODUCING something. you are PRODUCING music. if you have already produced that music, then you dont need an incentive to produce THAT music. however, there might be an incentive for you to produce NEW music.

and willing to put your money where your mouth is?

*sigh*
You just don't get it. The entitlement mentality is strong with you. To equate arts and entertainment with actual manufacturing makes my point.

entitlement mentality? you dont get it. arts and entertainment IS manufacturing, IS production, IS any other industry. it doesnt matter. all that exists is that which is produced, and the incentive to produce. inability to see that is blindness.