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how the hell could anyone be in support of tenure for school teachers?

the last-in-first-out system is pure BS.
how can ANYONE be in favor for a system where an employee is not judged on performance but on how long he/she has been working there?

It took the Los Angeles school district five years at a cost of $3.5 million to fire six teachers for poor performance, an investigation by a L.A. area weekly newspaper found.

In Washington, D.C., 75 teachers were dismissed for alleged incompetence in 2008. One teacher was let go for playing DVDs in class, another missed 20 days of work in two months. All ended up being reinstated by an arbitrator.

The story is similar in New York City where hundreds of teachers considered too inept to teach are kept out of classrooms, but continue to collect full salaries and benefits.


"The administration there has decided that it's actually harmful to children to have them in classrooms and yet the public is still responsible for continuing to pay full salary and benefits for these people year in and year out," said Michelle Rhee, former Chancellor of D.C. Public Schools and Founder of StudentsFirst. "That's absolutely a waste of taxpayer dollars."

An even louder chorus of critics is attacking unionized public school teachers for their tenure and seniority rules, job protections that make it difficult to remove bad teachers.

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie is a vocal critic of the union rules.

"Really there are two places left in America where there's a profession where there's no reward for excellence and no consequence for failure. We all know the first one is weathermen -- unfortunately the second one is teaching," the governor said.

Yesterday, the head of the largest national teachers union responded to the continued criticism by offering a major concession, a proposal to make it easier and faster to fire even tenured teachers who are not making the grade.

"Under the proposal, a teacher deemed 'unsatisfactory' would be required to submit to an improvement plan which could last anywhere from a month to a year," said Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers. "If administators and peer experts thought the teacher had not improved, they would refer it to an arbitrator who would decide within 100 days to keep or dismiss the teacher."

Under the new proposal it would still take as long as 15 months to remove a teacher who's ultimatley determined unfit to be in a classroom.

Many of the teacher's union protections have already been eroded and thousands of teachers are being fired as states and cities cut their budgets to close deficits.

In Providence, Rhode Island, all 1,900 teachers just received termination notices, ahead of what are expected to be massive layoffs. The city's mayor says state law will alow the dismissals outside of seniority rules.

One veteran teacher from Providence spoke with ABC News, but requested to remain anonymous out of the feat that if she was identified, she would be targeted.

"We're already fearful for our jobs. We have tenure and we've all just been fired. Honestly, what else can they do?"

Across America, teachers and the unions that protect them are under fire.

LMAO, but I had tenure, how could they lay me off?

WTF is this ****? If I perform poorly at work, I'm fired instantly. None of this BS where I have a year sitting on my ass collecting a paycheck + benefits, and a high probability of getting my job back after that probationary period.
 
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And people question why Wisconsin, Ohio and Indiana are going after collective bargaining.
 
People are starting to wake up on this issue...but it's going to take a while as tenure is considered a sacred cow among the unions. And if WI is any indicator...it's going to be a very long time before this can get fixed.

Meanwhile children suffer the consequences and America keeps losing ground compared to other nations...and many continue to wonder why.
 
I think people piss on teachers unions a bit too much, but yea there needs to be some degree of oversight in their performance. As it stands in Alabama, pretty much all first year teachers are fired regardless of their ability so they can always hire cheap teachers and cook the books to a degree. There's tons of other bullshit going on with school adminstrations, but yea suffice it to say the unions are needed to a degree.
 
In the city's funny math, you get only one teacher for the price of two.

The Department of Education pays about 1,500 teachers for time they spend on union activities -- and pays other teachers to replace them in the classroom.

It's a sweetheart deal that costs taxpayers an extra $9 million a year to pay fill-ins for instructors who are sprung -- at full pay -- to carry out responsibilities for the United Federation of Teachers
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/union_classic_le_en_jrQKCmKdjWQbMAtzqHASxI
 
And people question why Wisconsin, Ohio and Indiana are going after collective bargaining.

Collective bargaining should be a right everyone should have when it comes to important benefits like healthcare or retirement funds, but tenure is complete bullshit. The system should reward smart and skilled workers whilst guaranteeing decent wages/benefits for everyone as long as they perform adequately.
 
I hope you guys don't have your hearts set on a long, drawn out fight over this:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011...0037997.shtml?tag=cbsnewsTwoColUpperPromoArea
Last week, Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, a union with 1.5 million members, proposed new rules to evaluate and fire incompetent teachers. Any teacher judged "unsatisfactory" would get one year of guidance called an "improvement plan." Teachers who fail to improve would then face a dismissal hearing within 100 days.
 
Collective bargaining should be a right everyone should have when it comes to important benefits like healthcare or retirement funds, but tenure is complete bullshit. The system should reward smart and skilled workers whilst guaranteeing decent wages/benefits for everyone as long as they perform adequately.

And yet, by design, any union is there to protect its most senior members.
 
It's a total perversion of the university professor's tenure who was often fired or cut out of funding for independent research.

HS & Elementary teachers don't do research. Not needed.
 
People are starting to wake up on this issue...but it's going to take a while as tenure is considered a sacred cow among the unions. And if WI is any indicator...it's going to be a very long time before this can get fixed.

Meanwhile children suffer the consequences and America keeps losing ground compared to other nations...and many continue to wonder why.

starting to?
i want to know how and why this was ever put into place?
who the hell thought it was a good idea?
 
I think people piss on teachers unions a bit too much, but yea there needs to be some degree of oversight in their performance. As it stands in Alabama, pretty much all first year teachers are fired regardless of their ability so they can always hire cheap teachers and cook the books to a degree. There's tons of other bullshit going on with school adminstrations, but yea suffice it to say the unions are needed to a degree.
The unions should work on the administration waste in the education systems. Even with our state's budgetary woes, the school system gets $8400 per kid. Prior to, it was $11K with only $5500 making it to the local districts.
 
I don't think tenure rules are worth a shit and should be removed...and on top of that, kids that have special needs (i.e. learning issues - some so severe that they cannot even feed themselves at times) should not be allowed into a regular classroom, therefore penalizing the teacher that has to attempt to teach them. No child left behind needs to be repealed.

Also, the idea that teachers cannot punish children effectively needs to be removed. Paddle their sorry little asses if they get out of line. This is a huge problem in schools and effectively holds teaching and learning back tremendously.

Other than that, I think you'll see a drop in teachers coming out of college and, regardless if wages are dropped now, will be picked up at some point trying to attract more and better qualified teachers.
 
Collective bargaining should be a right everyone should have when it comes to important benefits like healthcare or retirement funds, but tenure is complete bullshit. The system should reward smart and skilled workers whilst guaranteeing decent wages/benefits for everyone as long as they perform adequately.

really? what's so bad about negotiating salary and benefits on your own?
esp. for public workers. is the govt really going to impose unfair and unsafe working conditions on you?
 
A biased article with a definite anti-union slant. "100's" in NYC? 3.5 million over 5 years in LA? Sources please.

I was talking to someone from NJ last week. He claimed that "tenure makes it impossible to fire a teacher." 60 seconds later, he was describing how a local teacher had just been fired for some particular incident.

Tenure does not make teacher's permanent. Tenure is NOT automatic - tenure is granted after 3 years of successful teaching by the school board and administration. If an incompetent teacher is granted tenure - that's because someone else (not a teacher) wasn't doing their job. During the first 3 years, a teacher may be let go or not have their contract renewed for any reason at all.

After 3 years, and tenure is granted, then the teacher is entitled to due process. That's the difference - the teacher gets due process before being removed. Without tenure, a teacher can be penalized for trying anything different at all in the classroom. Many new things that might be tried are quite successful; but if something didn't work out as planned, that teacher could be fired.

Last year, I had a student teacher who wanted to do a video project with the students - the students had to make movies about loci. My tenure allowed me the freedom to take such a chance. I actually didn't think he'd be that successful with the project. I made the test. The grades were stellar on that unit compared to previous years. So good in fact, that I already have the video cameras reserved for that unit this year. There was a good chance that the lesson could have backfired and resulted in lower grades. Without tenure, all it would take is one unsuccessful unit & a principal or administration who didn't like the teacher & that teacher would be fired for "incompetence." Without tenure, we'd all still be using the lecture 100% of the time (despite it being proven to not be the best method of teaching for much of the curriculum in most subjects) because no one would be allowed to take any risks. Tenure is necessary for educational innovation.

Again - tenure is NOT automatic - it requires an evaluation by the administration, multiple observations, unannounced observations, and generally, scrutiny of scores on standardized assessments. If incompetent teachers are being granted tenure - you're looking at the wrong source of the problem.
 
I don't think tenure rules are worth a shit and should be removed...and on top of that, kids that have special needs (i.e. learning issues - some so severe that they cannot even feed themselves at times) should not be allowed into a regular classroom, therefore penalizing the teacher that has to attempt to teach them. No child left behind needs to be repealed.

Also, the idea that teachers cannot punish children effectively needs to be removed. Paddle their sorry little asses if they get out of line. This is a huge problem in schools and effectively holds teaching and learning back tremendously.

Other than that, I think you'll see a drop in teachers coming out of college and, regardless if wages are dropped now, will be picked up at some point trying to attract more and better qualified teachers.

agree with everything, esp. the bolded.
 
Wait, so they get to keep their job for 1.5 years while they fail at it?

LOL

They should be fired and told they need to get training if they want to come back to work. No reason to let them leech off the tax payer for another 1.5 years.
This, exactly. Still, kudos to the union for moving in the right direction, even if only because a chill, strong wind is blowing in that direction.
 
Why is that move a good thing?

It still pay a bad teacher 1.5 years worth of taxpayer $$$ when they are a failure at their job and should be fired immediately.
As the saying goes...it's better than a sharp stick in the eye. I'm resigned to the fact that nothing will ever be "perfect".

I'm a pragmatist and value positive change.
 
A biased article with a definite anti-union slant. "100's" in NYC? 3.5 million over 5 years in LA? Sources please.

I was talking to someone from NJ last week. He claimed that "tenure makes it impossible to fire a teacher." 60 seconds later, he was describing how a local teacher had just been fired for some particular incident.

Tenure does not make teacher's permanent. Tenure is NOT automatic - tenure is granted after 3 years of successful teaching by the school board and administration. If an incompetent teacher is granted tenure - that's because someone else (not a teacher) wasn't doing their job. During the first 3 years, a teacher may be let go or not have their contract renewed for any reason at all.

After 3 years, and tenure is granted, then the teacher is entitled to due process. That's the difference - the teacher gets due process before being removed. Without tenure, a teacher can be penalized for trying anything different at all in the classroom. Many new things that might be tried are quite successful; but if something didn't work out as planned, that teacher could be fired.

Last year, I had a student teacher who wanted to do a video project with the students - the students had to make movies about loci. My tenure allowed me the freedom to take such a chance. I actually didn't think he'd be that successful with the project. I made the test. The grades were stellar on that unit compared to previous years. So good in fact, that I already have the video cameras reserved for that unit this year. There was a good chance that the lesson could have backfired and resulted in lower grades. Without tenure, all it would take is one unsuccessful unit & a principal or administration who didn't like the teacher & that teacher would be fired for "incompetence." Without tenure, we'd all still be using the lecture 100% of the time (despite it being proven to not be the best method of teaching for much of the curriculum in most subjects) because no one would be allowed to take any risks. Tenure is necessary for educational innovation.

Again - tenure is NOT automatic - it requires an evaluation by the administration, multiple observations, unannounced observations, and generally, scrutiny of scores on standardized assessments. If incompetent teachers are being granted tenure - you're looking at the wrong source of the problem.

Depends where you go. Some places tenure is quid pro quo others not. Like wise due process if afforded by many states already generous state employee labor law.
 
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