How the Economy Was Lost

[cw42]

jindal says they want to empower and "strengthen individuals and businesses"... arnt these the same people that got us into this whole mess?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: Atreus21

America?s 20th century economic success was based on two things. Free trade was not one of them.

Stopped reading after that.

Straight to denial, ehh? Figures.

From JS80-

There is no "arguing" about sides. It's fact that free trade benefits both nations that participate at the macro level, not opinion.

If it's balanced, certainly. But that's not the case, now is it?

Nor does your theory account for the effects of so-called free trade on different segments of the populations, either. Yeh, yeh, I know, why all that money concentrating at the top of the pyramid will "trickledown" to the rest of us, sometime RSN- wait for it, right?

From Double Trouble-

Hey, hot deal on tinfoil hats! I hear the newer model protect you from such evil cabals as the "economic elite" that are plotting nefariously to destroy the world

Nice hyperbole- Standard Right-think approach into total denial. Has it occurred to you that the long-running trade deficits have placed greater and greater control of the fate of our currency in the hands of leaders who aren't American, who're looking out for the welfare of their own people and interests, while our own leadership has been interested only in making a profit? Do you think that trans-national capitalism actually *cares* about which populations benefit and which do not?

Which is not to say that I agree entirely with the article, at all, but the abject failure of Free Market Rah! Rah! should lead reasonable people who aren't blinded by that failed ideology to consider alternative views...

See now that is debatable effect of free trade - partial wealth transfer from the workers to the capital owners. (since the upside of free trade is lower COGS, but only part of that gets passed to the consumer, but at the same time the downside is jobs lost and all of that is bourne by the consumer)

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Vic
The economy is coming back and faster than most of you realize. Granted, a lot of the mess is going to take many years to clean up, and some people are pretty much screwed for life now, but even that is an industry in itself.

As for the recovery, as the Roma Nova, the US has an unique way of collecting tribute from its vassal nations by masking it as debt, and much of the stimulus, etc. is coming from that.

But the real way to know the economy is poised for a rebound is that the gloom has penetrated throughout. Think of it as being like the opposite of the boom, when the irrational exuberance had shoeshine boys buying million dollar houses. We're on the flip side of that now. Just about everyone who bought high has sold off low, so the recovery is nigh.

Vic - How can the economy recover when American's are tapped? There was a thread here on some Harvard economist who said personal credit is maxed out. Add to this, banks are very dubious about lending in the first place even for people with excellent credit let alone people they financed last time (ARMs). Added to that is real incomes, and jobs, are decreasing. I don't share you optimism and I have not even got into the deadbeat problem we have. Who the wants to hire a American anyway? Are they even up to the task?

You're next point I've made myself. We are like the Godfather in world mob only way to get out is via body bag yourself so you better invest in US treasuries. So what? All that means is Obama can spend like crazy, usually bailing out the haves in the process, while the fundamental problems from above are still there. You have not addressed our production capability but instead every dollar in taxes we pay in future gives us less benefit due to higher debt load, higher payments. At this rate UHC is really impossible.

Going long in a market against an economy entering into a Depression is truly a recipe for disaster. If you think we are going to turn this ship I'd like to hear why other flow and fulcrums.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: Atreus21

America?s 20th century economic success was based on two things. Free trade was not one of them.

Stopped reading after that.

Why? That part is true. Protectionism works.

sorry, nop

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Zebo

How the Economy Was Lost



The American economy has gone away. It is not coming back until free trade myths are buried six feet under.

There is another thread by some dumbass that says wealth distribution in other than moderate terms is bad. If you buy into any of that, and tie it with the view of the economy in your op, then we have a long way to go (DOWN).

We need to know what the goal of free trade is before we can determine if it is a success or failure.

In the terms of the AMERICAN economy, absolutely, it is a failure.

 

[Pocatello]

I agree with the article. Unless the US government changes its policy, same with the big corporations, we are in big trouble. The stimulus package will only last a short time, after a 2-3 years, then what? Right now we're seeing the transferring of wealth and technology from the US to China and other parts of the world.

 

[First]

The consensus is that free trade with small import tariffs are good for an economy. The data is more convincing than the counter-argument, not debatable there really.

 

[retrospooty]

OK. OK, Zebo... Take your panic button hat back off now. The world isnt over and the country will move on...

What that short sighted article doesnt point out is that the American economy is strong. Its like Pizza - Even when its bad its still good. How many Iphones sold last quarter? still 92% of us are working and this is the worst recession in a long time... The American economy will always rebound - it re-invents itself when previous ways arent working.

You watch... 2-3 years from now, you will feel like a fool for beleiving what was entered in this post.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Wait until we find another bubble to inflate!

With the size of govt outpacing the economy. I am going to go with a govt bubble soon.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Zebo

How the Economy Was Lost

By Paul Craig Roberts

The American economy has gone away. It is not coming back until free trade myths are buried six feet under.

America?s 20th century economic success was based on two things. Free trade was not one of them. America?s economic success was based on protectionism, which was ensured by the Union victory in the Civil War, and on British indebtedness, which destroyed the British pound as world reserve currency. Following World War II, the US dollar took the role as reserve currency, a privilege that allows the US to pay its international bills in its own currency.

World War II and socialism together ensured that the US economy dominated the world at the mid 20th century. The economies of the rest of the world had been destroyed by war or were stifled by socialism.

The ascendant position of the US economy caused the US government to be relaxed about giving away American industries, such as textiles, as bribes to other countries for

cooperating with America?s cold war and foreign policies. For example, Turkey?s US textile quotas were increased in exchange for over-flight rights in the Gulf War, making lost US textile jobs an off-budget war expense.

In contrast, countries such as Japan and Germany used industrial policy to plot their comebacks. By the late 1970s, Japanese auto makers had the once dominant American auto industry on the ropes. The first economic act of the "free market" Reagan administration in 1981 was to put quotas on the import of Japanese cars in order to protect Detroit and the United Auto Workers.

Eamonn Fingleton, Pat Choate, and others have described how negligence in Washington DC aided and abetted the erosion of America?s economic position. What we didn?t give away, we let be taken from us while preaching a "free trade" doctrine at which the rest of the world scoffed.

Fortunately, our adversaries at the time, the Soviet Union and China, had unworkable economic systems that posed no threat to America?s diminishing economic prowess.

The proverbial hit the fan when Soviet, Chinese, and Indian socialism collapsed around 1990, to be followed shortly thereafter by the rise of the high speed Internet. Suddenly, American and other first world corporations discovered that a massive supply of foreign labor was available at practically free wages.

To get Wall Street analysts and shareholder advocacy groups off their backs, and to boost shareholder returns and management bonuses, American corporations began moving their production for American markets offshore. Products that were made in Peoria are now made in China.

As offshoring spread, American cities and states lost tax base, and families and communities lost jobs. The replacement jobs, such as selling the offshored products at Wal-Mart, brought home less pay.

"Free market economists" covered up the damage done to the US economy by preaching a New Economy based on services and innovation. But it wasn?t long before corporations discovered that the high speed Internet let them offshore a wide range of professional service jobs. In America, the hardest hit have been software engineers and information technology (IT) workers.

The American corporations quickly learned that by declaring "shortages" of skilled Americans, they could get from Congress H-1b work visas for lower paid foreigners with whom to replace their American work force. Many US corporations are known for forcing their US employees to train their foreign replacements in exchange for severance pay.

Chasing after shareholder return and "performance bonuses," US corporations deserted their American workforce. The consequences can be seen everywhere. The loss of tax base has threatened the municipal bonds of cities and states and reduced the wealth of individuals who purchased the bonds. The lost jobs with good pay resulted in the expansion of consumer debt in order to maintain consumption. As the offshored goods and services are brought back to America to sell, the US trade deficit has exploded to unimaginable heights, calling into question the US dollar as reserve currency and America?s ability to finance its trade deficit.

As the American economy eroded away bit by bit, "free market" ideologues produced endless reassurances that America had pulled a fast one on China, sending China dirty and grimy manufacturing jobs. Free of these "old economy" jobs, Americans were lulled with promises of riches. In place of dirty fingernails, American efforts would flow into innovation and entrepreneurship. In the meantime, the "service economy" of software and communications would provide a leg up for the work force.

Education was the answer to all challenges. This appeased the academics, and they produced no studies that would contradict the propaganda and, thus, curtail the flow of federal government and corporate grants.

The "free market" economists, who provided the propaganda and disinformation to hide the act of destroying the US economy, were well paid. And as Business Week noted, "outsourcing?s inner circle has deep roots in GE (General Electric) and McKinsey," a consulting firm. Indeed, one of McKinsey?s main apologists for offshoring of US jobs, Diana Farrell, is now a member of Obama?s White House National Economic Council.

The pressure of jobs offshoring, together with massive imports, has destroyed the economic prospects for all Americans, except the CEOs who receive "performance" bonuses for moving American jobs offshore or giving them to H-1b work visa holders. Lowly paid offshored employees, together with H-1b visas, have curtailed employment for older and more experienced American workers. Older workers traditionally receive higher pay. However, when the determining factor is minimizing labor costs for the sake of shareholder returns and management bonuses, older workers are unaffordable. Doing a good job, providing a good service, is no longer the corporation?s function. Instead, the goal is to minimize labor costs at all cost.

Thus, "free trade" has also destroyed the employment prospects of older workers. Forced out of their careers, they seek employment as shelf stockers for Wal-Mart.

I have read endless tributes to Wal-Mart from "libertarian economists," who sing Wal-Mart?s praises for bringing low price goods, 70% of which are made in China, to the American consumer. What these "economists" do not factor into their analysis is the diminution of American family incomes and government tax base from the loss of the goods producing jobs to China. Ladders of upward mobility are being dismantled by offshoring, while California issues IOUs to pay its bills. By shifting production offshore, offshoring reduces US GDP. When the goods and services are brought back to America to be sold, they increase the trade deficit. As the trade deficit is financed by foreigners acquiring ownership of US assets, the change in ownership means that profits, dividends, capital gains, interest, rents, and tolls leave American pockets for foreign ones.

The demise of America?s productive economy left the US economy dependent on finance, in which the US remained dominant because the dollar is the reserve currency. With the departure of factories, finance went in new directions. Mortgages, which were once held in the portfolios of the issuer, were securitized. Individual mortgage debts were combined into a "security." The next step was to strip out the interest payments to the mortgages and sell them as derivatives, thus creating a third debt instrument based on the original mortgages.

In pursuit of ever more profits, financial institutions began betting on the success and failure of various debt instruments and by implication on firms. They bought and sold collateral debt swaps. A buyer pays a premium to a seller for a swap to guarantee an asset?s value. If an asset "insured" by a swap falls in value, the seller of the swap is supposed to make the owner of the swap whole. The purchaser of a swap is not required to own the asset in order to contract for a guarantee of its value. Therefore, as many people could purchase as many swaps as they wished on the same asset. Thus, the total value of the swaps greatly exceeds the value of the assets. (An excellent explanation of swaps can be found here.)

The next step is for holders of the swaps to short the asset in order to drive down its value and collect the guarantee. As the issuers of swaps were not required to reserve against them, and as there is no limit to the number of swaps, the payouts can easily exceed the net worth of the issuer.

This was the most shameful and most mindless form of speculation. Gamblers were betting hands that they could not cover. The US regulators had abandoned their posts. The American financial institutions abandoned all integrity. As a consequence, American financial institutions and rating agencies are trusted nowhere on earth.

The US government should never have used billions of taxpayers? dollars to pay off swap bets as it did when it bailed out the insurance company AIG. This was a stunning waste of a vast sum of money. The federal government should declare all swap agreements fraudulent contracts, except for a single swap held by the owner of the asset. Simply wiping out these fraudulent contracts would remove the bulk of the vast overhang of "troubled" assets that threaten financial markets.

The billions of taxpayers? dollars spent buying up subprime derivatives were also wasted. The government did not need to spend one dime. All government needed to do was to suspend the mark-to-market rule. This simple act would have removed the solvency threat to financial institutions by allowing them to keep the derivatives at book value until financial institutions could ascertain their true values and write them down over time.

Taxpayers, equity owners, and the credit standing of the US government are being ruined by financial shysters who are manipulating to their own advantage the government?s commitment to mark-to-market and to the "sanctity of contracts." Multi-trillion dollar "bailouts" and bank nationalization are the result of the government?s inability to respond intelligently.

Two more simple acts would have completed the rescue without costing the taxpayers one dollar: an announcement from the Federal Reserve that it will be lender of last resort to all depository institutions including money market funds, and an announcement reinstating the uptick rule.

The uptick rule was suspended or repealed a couple of years ago in order to permit hedge funds and shyster speculators to rip-off American equity owners. The rule prevented short-selling any stock that did not move up in price during the previous day. In other words, speculators could not make money at others? expense by ganging up on a stock and short-selling it day after day.

As a former Treasury official, I am amazed that the US government, in the midst of the worst financial crises ever, is content for short-selling to drive down the asset prices that the government is trying to support. No bailout or stimulus plan has any hope until the uptick rule is reinstated.

The bald fact is that the combination of ignorance, negligence, and ideology that permitted the crisis to happen is still present and is blocking any remedy. Either the people in power in Washington and the financial community are total dimwits or they are manipulating an opportunity to redistribute wealth from taxpayers, equity owners and pension funds to the financial sector.

The Bush and Obama plans total 1.6 trillion dollars, every one of which will have to be borrowed, and no one knows from where. This huge sum will compromise the value of the US dollar, its role as reserve currency, the ability of the US government to service its debt, and the price level. These massive costs are pointless and are to no avail as not one step has been taken that would alleviate the crisis.

If we add to my simple menu of remedies a ban, punishable by instant death, for short selling any national currency, the world can be rescued from the current crisis without years of suffering, violent upheavals and, perhaps, wars.

According to its hopeful but economically ignorant proponents, globalism was supposed to balance risks across national economies and to offset downturns in one part of the world with upturns in other parts. A global portfolio was a protection against loss, claimed globalism?s purveyors. In fact, globalism has concentrated the risks, resulting in Wall Street?s greed endangering all the economies of the world. The greed of Wall Street and the negligence of the US government have wrecked the prospects of many nations. Street riots are already occurring in parts of the world. On Sunday February 22, the right-wing TV station, Fox "News," presented a program that predicted riots and disarray in the United States by 2014.

How long will Americans permit "their" government to rip them off for the sake of the financial interests that caused the problem? Obama?s cabinet and National Economic Council are filled with representatives of the interest groups that caused the problem. The Obama administration is not a government capable of preventing a catastrophe.

If truth be known, the "banking problem" is the least of our worries. Our economy faces two much more serious problems. One is that offshoring and H-1b visas have stopped the growth of family incomes, except, of course, for the super rich. To keep the economy going, consumers have gone deeper into debt, maxing out their credit cards and refinancing their homes and spending the equity. Consumers are now so indebted that they cannot increase their spending by taking on more debt. Thus, whether or not

the banks resume lending is beside the point.

The other serious problem is the status of the US dollar as reserve currency. This status has allowed the US, now a country heavily dependent on imports just like a third world or lesser-developed country, to pay its international bills in its own currency. We are able to import $800 billion annually more than we produce, because the foreign countries from whom we import are willing to accept paper for their goods and services.

If the dollar loses its reserve currency role, foreigners will not accept dollars in exchange for real things. This event would be immensely disruptive to an economy dependent on imports for its energy, its clothes, its shoes, its manufactured products, and its advanced technology products.

If incompetence in Washington, the type of incompetence that produced the current economic crisis, destroys the dollar as reserve currency, the "unipower" will overnight become a third world country, unable to pay for its imports or to sustain its standard of living.

How long can the US government protect the dollar?s value by leasing its gold to bullion dealers who sell it, thereby holding down the gold price? Given the incompetence in Washington and on Wall Street, our best hope is that the rest of the world is even less competent and even in deeper trouble. In this event, the US dollar might survive as the least valueless of the world?s fiat currencies.

Paul Craig Roberts [email him] was Assistant Secretary of

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02242009.html

I have been sounding alarm since I've been here (longer AFK) on the dangers we faced with the free trade mantra being pushed by lobby firms and corp to your detriment and also how all so-called prosperity for years was financed on debt, now it looks like the chickens have come home. There will be no jobs. There will be no paying off the debts we face without good jobs. With Obama and his pro corporatist/banker/offshore advisers in WH things have and will only get worse. I hope you have prepared for this eventuality.

I realize most of you are totally indoctrinated by the "free trade" shills corporate America hired to shove down your throats for 20 years now. But this thread is not for you since you don't understand maintaining an "absolute advantage." It's to prepare those who can follow logic and trends.

+ about 200,000,000 Americans.

Nice post.

-Robert

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: retrospooty
OK. OK, Zebo... Take your panic button hat back off now. The world isnt over and the country will move on...

What that short sighted article doesnt point out is that the American economy is strong. Its like Pizza - Even when its bad its still good. How many Iphones sold last quarter? still 92% of us are working and this is the worst recession in a long time... The American economy will always rebound - it re-invents itself when previous ways arent working.

You watch... 2-3 years from now, you will feel like a fool for beleiving what was entered in this post.

So, you haven't eaten Little Caesar's?

92% of 'us' aren't working. Where did you come up with that bit of nonsense? But, regardless, I hope you are right that we will come out of this huge probem in "2-3 years".

This is fundamentally a very different problem than we've ever had before, so predictions are probably not very helpful. We don't know what Tarp and Bailout Mania will ultimately do to our economy other than saddle our kids with debt and feed the moral bankruptcy of the Marie Antoinette wannabes at banks and on Wall Street. Apparently, they will buy new helicopters and fund more lavish parties for the appetizer.

-Robert

 

[StageLeft]

This is fundamentally a very different problem than we've ever had before, so predictions are probably not very helpful. We don't know what Tarp and Bailout Mania will ultimately do to our economy

True, it's not helpful to simply assume the best because it's always happened, and the sales of a new-released gadget are not a meaningful indication of the economy in either way. Certainly less so than, say, car sales which have crashed and the stock market which has shed half its value.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

This is fundamentally a very different problem than we've ever had before, so predictions are probably not very helpful. We don't know what Tarp and Bailout Mania will ultimately do to our economy

True, it's not helpful to simply assume the best because it's always happened, and the sales of a new-released gadget are not a meaningful indication of the economy in either way. Certainly less so than, say, car sales which have crashed and the stock market which has shed half its value.

Yes, and that was a lousy example anyway because total sales of cellphones are way down, and people are moving to buying cellphones minutes up front, rather than getting locked into an overpriced plan. I just buy $100 of minutes for my cellphone. Of course, I hate the cellphone and never call anyone unless I must call them. My daughter on the other hand....

-Robert

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: Atreus21

America?s 20th century economic success was based on two things. Free trade was not one of them.

Stopped reading after that.

too bad free trade has a part in killing US jobs. If you don't realize that to bad.

Free trade has a part in killing jobs anywhere.

 

[The-Noid]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Vic
The economy is coming back and faster than most of you realize. Granted, a lot of the mess is going to take many years to clean up, and some people are pretty much screwed for life now, but even that is an industry in itself.

As for the recovery, as the Roma Nova, the US has an unique way of collecting tribute from its vassal nations by masking it as debt, and much of the stimulus, etc. is coming from that.

But the real way to know the economy is poised for a rebound is that the gloom has penetrated throughout. Think of it as being like the opposite of the boom, when the irrational exuberance had shoeshine boys buying million dollar houses. We're on the flip side of that now. Just about everyone who bought high has sold off low, so the recovery is nigh.

Except the CDS house of cards hasn't even started to come crashing down yet.

An estimated $60T volcano of horseshit ready to erupt.

This is a fairly misleading statistic as this is based off two things I will try to explain here.

1.) The value of a derivative is based off the underlying security. We will use a plain vanilla interest rate swap here as this is the most common type of privately traded derivative and banks use these all the time. I will be swapping my floating rate loan from JPMORGAN which is based on 5 years of semi-annual payments of 1 month LIBOR + 100bp for an interest rate swap of 6.5% fixed for 5 years to CITI GLOBAL Markets on a notional value loan of $10,000,000. One would think that the derivatives position would be based on the interest rate of the loan or the interest rate of the swap. Say the difference is 150bp * 10,000,000 for the first payment or $150,000. In actuality when they give these figures out they are taking the loan amount of $10,000,000 and multiplying it by 10 payments equaling a derivatives notional value of $100,000,000. This is for a single transaction, which in itself is 10 transactions. Now take CITI GLOBAL they will also buy an interest rate swap hedging themselves against rates going above 6.5% from another counterparty who buys hedges from another counterparty and so on and so forth creating a significant amount of notional value that in all actuality works out to fractions of pennies on the dollar as even the first contract started out with a spread of only 150bp.

2.) After a year goes by interest rates have come down significantly on LIBOR and I want to get out of the contract. Logic would say I would simply give CITI money and they would forgo the contract. Not the case. I have to write a derivative contract that is the opposite of my first contract saying that CITI Group will pay me LIBOR + 100 bp for the remaining number of payments (8), this then creates another 80,000,000 of notional value in the derivatives sphere. CITI then does the same with counterparties thus crossing their hedges and again almost doubling the fictional notional value that is outstanding.

Forwards and swaps are not like futures, the market is very complex and can be significantly overinflated because it is private. There are literally Trillions of dollars of currency swaps that have been canceled years ago in Europe on currencies that no longer exist...

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: retrospooty
OK. OK, Zebo... Take your panic button hat back off now. The world isnt over and the country will move on...

What that short sighted article doesnt point out is that the American economy is strong. Its like Pizza - Even when its bad its still good. How many Iphones sold last quarter? still 92% of us are working and this is the worst recession in a long time... The American economy will always rebound - it re-invents itself when previous ways arent working.

You watch... 2-3 years from now, you will feel like a fool for beleiving what was entered in this post.

I don't post to scare only to prepare and educate.

Don't ever fear and life will be great.

You think this is one big joke.

Soon many will be broke.

I am here to make sure it ain't you.

Just presenting you with the facts and what is true.

Skip over Dr.Roberts analysis at your leisure

While America has a permanent seizure.

News will get worse and worse.

Better hold on to your purse.

While Iphones you may adore.

I would invest in market hitting the floor.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: retrospooty
OK. OK, Zebo... Take your panic button hat back off now. The world isnt over and the country will move on...

What that short sighted article doesnt point out is that the American economy is strong. Its like Pizza - Even when its bad its still good. How many Iphones sold last quarter? still 92% of us are working and this is the worst recession in a long time... The American economy will always rebound - it re-invents itself when previous ways arent working.

You watch... 2-3 years from now, you will feel like a fool for beleiving what was entered in this post.

I don't post to scare only to prepare and educate.

Don't ever fear and life will be great.

You think this is one big joke.

Soon many will be broke.

I am here to make sure it ain't you.

Just presenting you with the facts and what is true.

Skip over Dr.Roberts analysis at your leisure

While America has a permanent seizure.

News will get worse and worse.

Better hold on to your purse.

While Iphones you may adore.

I would invest in market hitting the floor.

Dude, seriously, if you just made that up at the spur of the moment, i salute you.

I could never do that.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: retrospooty
OK. OK, Zebo... Take your panic button hat back off now. The world isnt over and the country will move on...

What that short sighted article doesnt point out is that the American economy is strong. Its like Pizza - Even when its bad its still good. How many Iphones sold last quarter? still 92% of us are working and this is the worst recession in a long time... The American economy will always rebound - it re-invents itself when previous ways arent working.

You watch... 2-3 years from now, you will feel like a fool for beleiving what was entered in this post.

I don't post to scare only to prepare and educate.

Don't ever fear and life will be great.

You think this is one big joke.

Soon many will be broke.

I am here to make sure it ain't you.

Just presenting you with the facts and what is true.

Skip over Dr.Roberts analysis at your leisure

While America has a permanent seizure.

News will get worse and worse.

Better hold on to your purse.

While Iphones you may adore.

I would invest in market hitting the floor.

Dude, seriously, if you just made that up at the spur of the moment, i salute you.

I could never do that.

Yes, very cute piece.

-Robert

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: babylon5
Wait until we find another bubble to inflate!

With the size of govt outpacing the economy. I am going to go with a govt bubble soon.

Yup. And when that one bursts look out.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Vic
The economy is coming back and faster than most of you realize. Granted, a lot of the mess is going to take many years to clean up, and some people are pretty much screwed for life now, but even that is an industry in itself.

As for the recovery, as the Roma Nova, the US has an unique way of collecting tribute from its vassal nations by masking it as debt, and much of the stimulus, etc. is coming from that.

But the real way to know the economy is poised for a rebound is that the gloom has penetrated throughout. Think of it as being like the opposite of the boom, when the irrational exuberance had shoeshine boys buying million dollar houses. We're on the flip side of that now. Just about everyone who bought high has sold off low, so the recovery is nigh.

Saved for later. Hope we still have internet.

Stop posting.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Free trade has a part in killing jobs anywhere.

mechanized farming killed farms jobs everywhere, but i very much doubt that anyone would seriously consider going back to plowing behind an ox on a large scale.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Vic
The economy is coming back and faster than most of you realize. Granted, a lot of the mess is going to take many years to clean up, and some people are pretty much screwed for life now, but even that is an industry in itself.

As for the recovery, as the Roma Nova, the US has an unique way of collecting tribute from its vassal nations by masking it as debt, and much of the stimulus, etc. is coming from that.

But the real way to know the economy is poised for a rebound is that the gloom has penetrated throughout. Think of it as being like the opposite of the boom, when the irrational exuberance had shoeshine boys buying million dollar houses. We're on the flip side of that now. Just about everyone who bought high has sold off low, so the recovery is nigh.

Saved for later. Hope we still have internet.

Stop posting.

Zebo doesn't fall to peer pressure.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Free trade has a part in killing jobs anywhere.

mechanized farming killed farms jobs everywhere, but i very much doubt that anyone would seriously consider going back to plowing behind an ox on a large scale.

There is a difference.

We replaced those jobs with productive high paying factory jobs.

Today we get to stock shelves for Wal-Mart.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: babylon5
Wait until we find another bubble to inflate!

With the size of govt outpacing the economy. I am going to go with a govt bubble soon.

Yup. And when that one bursts look out.

Internet bubble-->Real Estate Bubble--> Government Bubble-->Hyperinflation-->Revolution

 

[alchemize]

Zebo, since you seem to be predicting some huge economic collapse, basically the fall of society...I mean you're the guy wearing the sandwich board that says "the world will end tomorrow".

Can you please put a timeline around your prediction so we can have the opportunity to mock you when you are wrong? Thanks

PS: I'll be happy to counter-predict for you to mock me but it would be pointless since I'll be out shooting dogs for meat and won't have time for P&N if you are correct.