How obvious is the difference between a 20hz capable subwoofer and 25hz, 30hz, etc?

[vi edit]

I am helping by providing you are better option than what people have stated, so you can actually use a subwoofer. Using subwoofers where you live will cause you problems, so the dual opposing subwoofer is a better option. It will minimize the rattling, so you can set it a good level to watch movies.

That's just patently false. If you go with two drivers that face each other (like in a IB manifold) you can cut down on mechanical vibrations as they will help cancel each other out. But no magical configuration will minimize LFE tranfer to other parts of the building. A solid built subwoofer on a decoupling pad (subdude) will be the best you will get for reducing transduction to other floors. But it won't do anything to mitigate low frequencies from bothering others.

 

[jlee]

You have a big problem. I am trying to help, you are just laughing in my face. This is like throwing crap in may face.

I am helping by providing you are better option than what people have stated, so you can actually use a subwoofer. Using subwoofers where you live will cause you problems, so the dual opposing subwoofer is a better option. It will minimize the rattling, so you can set it a good level to watch movies.

I appreciate your input, but telling me that I should listen to you for no other reason than a simple claim that 'I've been doing this longer than everyone so I'm right' is quite weak.

Depending on your AV receiver, Audyssey may not equalize the subwoofer. I suggest do not hope that Audysssey in your AV receiver to fix what is dirty.

I have a Denon 1611 with MultEQ. It will equalize a subwoofer. Right now I am running Polk Monitor40 Series II as mains and spare Z560 speakers as rear surrounds. Eventually I will pick up a pair of Monitor70's for the front, move the 40's to the back, and pick up a center (probably Polk CS2). For now, what I have works well enough..it just has no bottom end to speak of.

I am probably much less picky than most people here - all I really want is to hear the lower frequencies that I am missing. I really don't think I need to spend $700-800 to do this...would I like to eventually? Sure, when I have a nice room and a house to work with..but unfortunately, I don't have that yet.

 

[electroju]

Right. So all those cylinder subs from SVS and all of HSU's are just going to fade away and they'd willingly keep making that design?

Just do your research on the driver. Some drivers are more susceptible to sag than others.

Even if doing research, the suspension sags and the performance gets lost. Sonotube are good because it provides the simplistic of design, but I am not saying they will be obsolete. Down firing and up firing loses performance because of Xmax gets lost. A speaker driver can lose about 1 to 20 mm if it is put a down firing or up firing. Losing only about 1 mm may not seem a lot, but it is a lot if trying to produce bass. In order to produce bass, a lot of displacement is required. Xmax mainly governors displacement.

Sonotubes can be used for making front firing subwoofers. I am not stating that sonotube subwoofers are obsolete. You are stating they are obsolete because on the statement that I said.

No computer speaker set is going to come even remotely close to what a true, purpose built subwoofer is capable of. For a high use of movies, I think you want a sub capable of producing 100db or more @ 25hz and up as a minimum. There's just a lot of material in that range in movies any more. And it's one thing to be able to produce it, another to do it loudly, and another yet cleanly.

I only say 25hz because getting lower than that really requires a combination of big drivers, big boxes, and a lot power. Plus there's been a bit of a trend lately in BR audio mixing where they are starting to put a LFE filter on content under 25hz. It sucks. But that's what it is.

I've got both a 12" Dayton RS in a sealed box and an MFW-15. There's only a few scenes where the Dayton 12" can't provide the same impact as the MFW. It can play them, but it's just not the same kind of physical feedback the the larger driver, and 2x larger ported box of the MFW can do.

I like the Daytons because they are well built and very low distortion. They just don't have quite the excursion and paper specs of some of the more adventurous subs from Exodus (Tempest X, Mal-X, ect) or AE.

You sound like a reasonably handy guy. Subwoofers are not hard to build. All you really need is a circular saw, jig saw, a pile of clamps, and some wood glue..a router is definitely preferred for hole cutting and rounding off.

A sheet of 3/4" MDF and you can build about anything out there short of the really big monsters like table tubas.

Who said that jlee is using computer speakers.

FYI, it is displacement is the key for subwoofers. A 12 inch woofer can compete against a 15 inch woofer. It all matters about the Xmax. Sure Sd matters too, but Xmax will still governor the output.

Sealed type of subwoofers are not designed for output. They are designed for accuracy. If you need loudness, vented or bass reflex is better. Using a Linkwitz Trransform can improve the performance of a sealed subwoofer, but still the Xmax is the limiting factor.

The Dayton RS is designed for audio accuracy, so the subwoofers will not hit low. They have to be equalized or use multiple woofers. A better option to hit 25 Hz is use two Dayton RSS315HFA-8 in about 3 cubic feet box using a 500 watt amplifier. A Linkwitz Transform is optional. At 25 Hz the SPL is at 105 dB. Though if used one Exodus Shiva-X2 12 inch in the same box, it gives the same amount of output and the same performance. The difference is Xmax.

Movies having limit on bandwidth for channels depends on the funds for the foley artists. It also depends on the AV receiver that you bought. If you buy a lower end model, you get crap. Stating that there is a limitation in frequency response requires evidence. You need to show spectrograph of sound to prove what you said. Though could be hearing artifacts, but what does it matter to you since you do not care what is below 25 Hz

You just do not like me because I am stating facts that are true. I am trying to help while you make it worst. You need to get off your high horse.

 

[jlee]

Who said that jlee is using computer speakers.

I did.

However, I also want to have something that will give me a noticable improvement over the subwoofer on my old set of Z560's.

 

[electroju]

That's just patently false. If you go with two drivers that face each other (like in a IB manifold) you can cut down on mechanical vibrations as they will help cancel each other out. But no magical configuration will minimize LFE tranfer to other parts of the building. A solid built subwoofer on a decoupling pad (subdude) will be the best you will get for reducing transduction to other floors. But it won't do anything to mitigate low frequencies from bothering others.

Actually there is a magically way to absorb bass. It is air. Air absorbs bass, so if there is enough air between one material and then to the next, it will be absorb. If the apartment is up to code, it will be able to handle some audible bass. If the apartment is up to code, the neighbor will not notice the party next to them. Absorbing high frequencies is hard to do. In an theater, there is about 4 to 5 feet between each auditorium. Concrete aids in absorbing bass because of the stiffness.

If creating a room inside a room, bass will have a hard time to transfer. May sound funny, but it does work.

 

[jlee]

lol if my neighbor's dog barks, I can hear it...pretty sure any loud HT setup will be easily heard as well. As mentioned earlier though, my neighbor isn't typically home when I am (he works days and I work nights).

I'd consider looking around locally for some audio shops, but I live in one of the more expensive areas in NH so I don't imagine I will be able to find any decent deals without buying online. Might be able to listen to some stuff, though.

 

[sdifox]

lol if my neighbor's dog barks, I can hear it...pretty sure any loud HT setup will be easily heard as well. As mentioned earlier though, my neighbor isn't typically home when I am (he works days and I work nights).

I'd consider looking around locally for some audio shops, but I live in one of the more expensive areas in NH so I don't imagine I will be able to find any decent deals without buying online. Might be able to listen to some stuff, though.

Just build a sonotube sub and cover it with carpet. Your cat can also use it as a scratching post

 

[jlee]

Haha well maybe I should put it this way...what's the cheapest and easiest way to get something worth building? Can I put a sonotube together in a day?

Is it less than ideal to have it in the middle of the room? I wonder if I could somehow turn a subwoofer into a coffee table or something...

 

[vi edit]

Movies having limit on bandwidth for channels depends on the funds for the foley artists. It also depends on the AV receiver that you bought. If you buy a lower end model, you get crap. Stating that there is a limitation in frequency response requires evidence. You need to show spectrograph of sound to prove what you said. Though could be hearing artifacts, but what does it matter to you since you do not care what is below 25 Hz

Over at AVS there are a number of waterfalls charts on DVD vs. BR LFE material. Some of the newer BR's hit a wall at 25hz and below. I think it's 20th Century Fox that is one of the principal offenders.

[EDIT]

I hadn't followed that thread in about 3 months, looks like it was mostly just an issue with Master and Commander and not as big of a problem as previously thought.

 

[vi edit]

Haha well maybe I should put it this way...what's the cheapest and easiest way to get something worth building? Can I put a sonotube together in a day?

Is it less than ideal to have it in the middle of the room? I wonder if I could somehow turn a subwoofer into a coffee table or something...

Oh your certainly can.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=179788&highlight=subwoofer+build

 

[sdifox]

Haha well maybe I should put it this way...what's the cheapest and easiest way to get something worth building? Can I put a sonotube together in a day?

Is it less than ideal to have it in the middle of the room? I wonder if I could somehow turn a subwoofer into a coffee table or something...

No sub can be built in a day. You need drying time for the glue and finish.

If you make the sonotube sub to match the height of your room, you can make it look like a structural column :biggrin:

 

[Number1]

I don't know if you've read enough threads, but electroju is always wrong. It doesn't even bear mentioning at this point.

I disagree, he seams to be very knowledgeable, it`s just that he tend to be a extreme in his views. The problem is figuring out where the extreme starts.

There is a lot of good info from everybody in this thread. I am going to build a sub for my son soon so I am trying to suck everything I can.
I am going to start another thread when I get started on mine soon.

 

[velillen]

I think im in the same boat budget wise and all as you jlee! So you get to be my test dummy

One question i do have is how hard is it to manually setup the sub? I have the onkyo 607 (2EQ audyssy) so would have to set it up manually i think.

-Also what exactly is the difference in sonotube? Like i get downfiring, well fires down. Forward fires forward (duh) but what does a sonotube do?

-Does adding "ports" add anything really? if so what exactly (i actually had a harder time finding people who really added ports)


-the last thing. I see most amps offer auto on/off. Which is great. but is there a viable option for just turning it off? Will straight unplugging/manually setting to off hurt anything if i leave the receiver set to output a sub? I only ask cause night time when people are sleeping i still like to use the speakers but bass might be a bit to much.



Anyways sorry if that really derails your thread jlee (hopefully not!) but maybe we can learn from each other

 

[s44]

I disagree, he seams to be very knowledgeable, it`s just that he tend to be a extreme in his views.

He's half-knowledgeable and thinks he's all-knowledgeable. This makes his advice not only wrong but useless.

 

[Number1]

He's half-knowledgeable and thinks he's all-knowledgeable. This makes his advice not only wrong but useless.

Well at least I got you do admit he knows some stuff. Enough to be dangerous? You bet ya!

There is a name for this condition where you don't know enough to know that you don't know much and think you are much better then you actually are.
I forget what it's called, I know that much.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Well at least I got you do admit he knows some stuff. Enough to be dangerous? You bet ya!

There is a name for this condition where you don't know enough to know that you don't know much and think you are much better then you actually are.
I forget what it's called, I know that much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 

[jlee]

I think im in the same boat budget wise and all as you jlee! So you get to be my test dummy

One question i do have is how hard is it to manually setup the sub? I have the onkyo 607 (2EQ audyssy) so would have to set it up manually i think.

-Also what exactly is the difference in sonotube? Like i get downfiring, well fires down. Forward fires forward (duh) but what does a sonotube do?

-Does adding "ports" add anything really? if so what exactly (i actually had a harder time finding people who really added ports)


-the last thing. I see most amps offer auto on/off. Which is great. but is there a viable option for just turning it off? Will straight unplugging/manually setting to off hurt anything if i leave the receiver set to output a sub? I only ask cause night time when people are sleeping i still like to use the speakers but bass might be a bit to much.



Anyways sorry if that really derails your thread jlee (hopefully not!) but maybe we can learn from each other

If a sonotube is set up vertically, it's down firing..I think you can tip them sideways so they are side firing, though.

No sub can be built in a day. You need drying time for the glue and finish.

If you make the sonotube sub to match the height of your room, you can make it look like a structural column :biggrin:

hahahahah...that would be awesome if I had enough space to make it look halfway decent

I don't mean completely start to finish, but having the box/etc all assembled. I guess it depends on the style/type of box.. I'm just trying to gauge overall difficulty. I should probably buy a router, too..

 

[velillen]

If a sonotube is set up vertically, it's down firing..I think you can tip them sideways so they are side firing, though.

i figured that much. but all i have really found for advantages is just lighter/easier to build than a box.

 

[sdifox]

If a sonotube is set up vertically, it's down firing..I think you can tip them sideways so they are side firing, though.



hahahahah...that would be awesome if I had enough space to make it look halfway decent

I don't mean completely start to finish, but having the box/etc all assembled. I guess it depends on the style/type of box.. I'm just trying to gauge overall difficulty. I should probably buy a router, too..

Really depends on how anal retentive you are. Some people just screw the internal bracing from the outside board and then caulk the screw hole. Some actually make internal bracing that look like commercial product.

I did 4 coats of stain and 7 coat of Varathane Clear Finish on a coffee table and it wasn't even for me

 

[sdifox]

i figured that much. but all i have really found for advantages is just lighter/easier to build than a box.

which is great when you don't care about the look. Some people want performance and don't mind a water heater, others do.

I am too lazy to do either

 

[Tiamat]

Obviousness depends solely on the program material you are listening to first of all. After that, if the program material demands it, then the next point that determines obviousness is how well your listening position and subwoofer are setup within the room. If either one of them is not in an ideal setup, the ability of the subwoofer to dig deep may very well be not realized.

There are trade-offs when dealing with limited budgets as well. A subwoofer that can hit 30hz with very high headroom and low distortion will be much more satisfying than a subwoofer that can hit 20hz with mediocre headroom and high distortion. When I say distortion, I am talking about all sorts of audible distortion including port chuff, driver bottoming, amp motorboating, harmonic distortion, compression, etc.

For an all-purpose room, 30hz with high headroom and low distortion will satisfy almost every person. Only when you get into a room where you can carefully lay things out will 20hz bass be fully appreciated. In any case, good 20hz bass is very expensive because it requires far more amplifier power, robust drivers, robust cabinetry, and thus, far more money.

The logitech subwoofer isn't that hard to improve over, however, the key to great system sound is careful setup. Careful setup can also improve on the logitech subwoofer the way it is currently setup (unless by luck you have optimized the setup).

 

[velillen]

which is great when you don't care about the look. Some people want performance and don't mind a water heater, others do.

I am too lazy to do either

good to know Ill probably go the box route and stain it black to match the other speakers. Though im still in the pre-preplanning stages

 

[Tiamat]

Actually there is a magically way to absorb bass. It is air. Air absorbs bass, so if there is enough air between one material and then to the next, it will be absorb. If the apartment is up to code, it will be able to handle some audible bass. If the apartment is up to code, the neighbor will not notice the party next to them. Absorbing high frequencies is hard to do. In an theater, there is about 4 to 5 feet between each auditorium. Concrete aids in absorbing bass because of the stiffness.

If creating a room inside a room, bass will have a hard time to transfer. May sound funny, but it does work.

Absorbing high frequencies is not hard to do. In fact, due to the relatively short wavelength, air and normal room furnishings dampen high frequencies very easily. Low frequencies are very difficult to dampen because of their long wavelengths. Air will dampen it, however no where nearly as effective as air dampens higher frequencies. If an apartment is up to code, frequencies ~300hz and higher will effectively be dampened to a point inaudible to a neighbor. Careful wall construction with staggered studs will extend the effectiveness of dampening down to the depths of low bass since all sound is effectively isolated with very minimal routes of mechanical transmission (The base and top of the frame holding the staggered studs), but at a very high cost.

Concrete does not aid in absorbing bass because of its stiffness. Rather, it successfully isolates bass because of its mass. Absorption and isolation are two completely different concepts. A helpful text in understanding the basics of acoustics is FA Everest's Master Handbook of Acoustics.

 

[jlee]

To clarify - I don't have the Z560's set up in this room now..they're bedroom computer speakers at the moment. I have no sub at all on the receiver.

I'm really tempted to just pick up something like this or this so I have it sooner than later (i.e. Tuesday with Prime ), and then maybe slowly work on researching / building / etc something epic. Thoughts?

 

[sdifox]

good to know Ill probably go the box route and stain it black to match the other speakers. Though im still in the pre-preplanning stages

Most of the people that built sonosub just grabbed some fabric and made a sock for it.