How much do you think hydrogen fuel for cars will be?

[XMan]

A recent article indicated that hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles will be available in the United States as early as 2003.

Given that hydrogen is the most common element in the universe, not to mention our planet, how much do you think an equivalent gallon will cost?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

dunno, although chrysler has an electric golfcart coming out. for small distances. costs $5,000 to manufactuer, and they make $25,000 on the little guy. holy cow. i wish i could do that

 

[RossMAN]

What if these hydrogen cars get into an accident and the point of impact is near the tank, what happens to the car and it's occupants?

 

[rgwalt]

Initially, hydrogen will be produced by auto-reforming gasoline or some other hydrocarbon inside the vehicle. I don't know if the vehicles will be more efficient though, but if they are significantly better, you will be able to go farther for your dollar. It is highly doubtful that a nationwide distribution system for hydrogen can be developed even in 10 years, let alone two.

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, but here on earth, free hydrogen is rare. It is also difficult/dangerous to store, especially to carry on-board a vehicle. If it is ever distributed on a wide-spread scale as a compressed gas/liquid, it will have to be produced at a plant by either electrolysis of water or reforming of hydrocarbon. Unfortunately, hydrogen isn't the cure-all answer to energy problems that people think it will be. Fuel cells will be much cleaner though.

Ryan

 

[ElFenix]

they'll never put pure hydrogen in cars, so it could be either water, cheap, or some sort of gasoline, also cheap.

 

[HansHurt]

What happens to the oil/gas companies?

 

[SSP]

I've read somewhere that its expencive at the moment to convert water > Hydrogen. Hope it wont be when these cars hit the street.

 

[TripleJ]

Depends on who's producing it I suppose.

 

[Martin]

<< What if these hydrogen cars get into an accident and the point of impact is near the tank, what happens to the car and it's occupants? >>



its best you not ask


As rgwalt pointed out, 1st generation cars will use methane to get their H and produce CO2 ( I think), which is OK, since CO2 doesn't do as much damage as nitrous oxides and other such compounds. We'l ahve to wait and see though.


What we REALLY need is a small fusion generator in each vehicle...just add water....

 

[silent tone]

hydrogen safety

 

[Tominator]

Until a substitute for platinum is found, a major neccessity for fuel cells, you will never be able to afford a car powered by them. It will happen, but at whhat cost?

 

[MisterNi]

Found an article about BMW and their research into hydrogen fuel cells on CNN, according to the article, it problebly won't happen for another 30+ years. It is interesting to note that BMW's hydrogen engine can run off both gasoline or hydrogen, is a V12 that produces 200hp.

link

 

[Dark4ng3l]

200hp for a v12 :disgust:

 

[rgwalt]

Even using methane as fuel is risky... as a chemical engineer, I know we like to transport liquids whenever possible. Transporting and delivering gasses is difficult and costly. Also, converting water to hydrogen will never be done on-board a vehicle unless it is fusion powered. The reason is that it will take more energy to extract the hydrogen than will be produced when it is converted back to electricity. There is no way around this one as it is limited by the first and second law of thermodynamics.

The current fuel cell vehicles will be expensive. The fuel cell alone will run about the same amount as a decent new car (around $20K). I think that costs will go down in the future, but right now I don't see fuel cell vehicles taking over the market right away. One nice thing is that pure fuel cell vehicles use electric motors instead of engines, so I think that vehicle life will better (though the fuel cell or some of its parts will probably have to be replaced every 5 years or so).

Ryan

 

[Aenygma]

RossMan read what I worte last week when NFS4 thought the electric honda was cutting edge.

Hydrogen IS The Future


Much safer than cars today.

 

[joohang]

I'd love to see some fuel cell-powered laptops.

 

[XMan]

What if these hydrogen cars get into an accident and the point of impact is near the tank, what happens to the car and it's occupants?

Gee, I don't know - they seem to be able to protect people from exploding from gasoline leaks in crashes.

Here's a comment from the BMW article . . .

Safety issues are a major concern for a fuel that's often perceived as more dangerous than others. While hydrogen itself played no part in either catastrophe, it was the fuel in both the Hindenburg and the Challenger.

Wagner says consumers should not fear a hydrogen-powered vehicle.

"Of course there is some risk, but it is comparable to the risk we have with conventional automotive fuels," he said.

BMW conducted numerous crash tests to see what would happen if the hydrogen tank was punctured or damaged. Their engineers report the liquid hydrogen dissipated harmlessly into the air.


My question was brought up by this, which was in the thread wyst referred to.

Also on Tuesday, Honda showed an upgraded test model of its fuel cell-powered vehicle. Honda says it plans to put a fuel cell car on the market by 2003.


The world's major automakers are working on developing fuel cell cars that emit only water vapor instead of polluting gases. The technology generates electricity by combining hydrogen stored in the car as fuel with oxygen in the air.


Although Honda is working on developing its own fuel cell stack, a key part of a fuel cell car, the version shown Tuesday uses a fuel cell stack made by Ballard Power Systems of Canada that leads the world in fuel cells.


Honda's FCX-V4, which runs on compressed hydrogen gas, is an improvement from the previous Honda fuel cell model. The new version can travel for 186 miles without refueling, up from 112 miles on regular fuel, Honda said. Its maximum speed went up to 87 m.p.h. from 80 m.p.h.

 

[rgwalt]

Xerox Man and others-

That is good information, and I'm sure Honda and other manufacturers will have vehicles available soon. Here are the problems though:

1- Distribution system. Currently there is no widespread distribution system in this country for hydrogen. Transporting hydrogen is difficult and dangerous. Transporting and transfering any liquified gas is costly and inherently unsafe. Since there is no pipeline system setup for hydrogen, all transport will have to be done by train and tanker truck. Finally, gas stations will have to implement hydrogen fuel pumps. Setting up the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered vehicles will take time. I too think that hydrogen is an excellent potential fuel, but we aren't ready to make the jump yet.

2- Production. Hydrogen can't be extracted from air effectively. It must be produced by autoreforming hydrocarbon fuel source, or extraction from water. Autoreforming produces pollutants, but if the production is done at a plant chances are they resulting pollutants can be kept to a much lower level than they would be if produced on-board a vehicle. The other method (electrolysis of water) requires lots of electricity, which doesn't doesn't come free or without pollution.

I still contend that driving around with a compressed gas cylinder on the back of my car isn't safe, but I guess it isn't the end of the world.

Ryan