how much do 'values' matter when you can't eat?

[JacobJ]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11...opinion/22herbert.html

what do you guys think?

With all this discussion of morality and values going on there is little discussion of how to solve the major problem of poverty in our country. When 11.2% of households in the prosperous united states struggle to eat, isn't that a major issue? Who cares about 'gay marriage' when you are light headed from hunger?

What do we need to do to make poverty an issue that matters?

 

[illustri]

I guess walmart's values matter.

 

[AntiEverything]

Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

oh, because its obviously their fault that they can't eat. They'd rather watch movies than starve, right? And kiddies! How dare them have kiddies!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

:thumbsup:

 

[JacobJ]

ps: read the article

 

[dmcowen674]

12 Million and growing, horayyy for the good Ol USA, way to go :thumbsup:

 

[Ryan]

Ahh, billybob and mary sue can't afford to buy Mcdonalds for their every meal so their fat asses, and their 5 fat ass children, don't have to cook in their doublewide with their 60" big screen TV and 6 billion channels. Boo Hoo.

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: rbloedow
Ahh, billybob and mary sue can't afford to buy Mcdonalds for their every meal so their fat asses, and their 5 fat ass children, don't have to cook in their doublewide with their 60" big screen TV and 6 billion channels. Boo Hoo.

you sound like a fvkcing asshole. What right do you have to judge people who are living in poverty?

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

While this does not hold for cases I must say I share in your speculation.

 

[isasir]

One of the things in the debates that stuck out to me was Kerry's desire to raise the minimum wage to $8/hr. So while this wasn't a major focus of the elections, this would help alleviate the problem of people feeding themselves (assuming of course they put food high on their priority list of necessities.)

I've come to realize though that a lot of people really just care about themselves (hence "moral values" having such an impact on the election) and as long as these poor people don't harass them for change, they'll just continue on their merry way.

 

[AntiEverything]

Originally posted by: JacobJ
ps: read the article

Paste it here, not gonna create an account to read an article.

 

[AntiEverything]

Originally posted by: isasir
One of the things in the debates that stuck out to me was Kerry's desire to raise the minimum wage to $8/hr. So while this wasn't a major focus of the elections, this would help alleviate the problem of people feeding themselves (assuming of course they put food high on their priority list of necessities.)

I've come to realize though that a lot of people really just care about themselves (hence "moral values" having such an impact on the election) and as long as these poor people don't harass them for change, they'll just continue on their merry way.

You don't understand economics, do you. $8/hr would simply put those businesses who pay minimum wage out of business.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

You don't understand economics, do you. $8/hr would simply put those businesses who pay minimum wage out of business.

Businesses that can't afford to properly compensate their employees deserves to be "Out of Business".

 

[JacobJ]

a few excerpts from the article

The definitions can be elastic and easily blurred, but essentially we're talking about individuals and families that don't have enough money to cover the essentials - food, shelter, clothing, transportation and so forth.)

According to the study: "Most low-income working families do not conform to the popular stereotype of the working poor as young, single, fast-food workers: 88 percent of low-income working families include a parent between 25 and 54 years old. Married couples head 53 percent of these families nationwide. Important jobs such as health aide, janitor and child care worker pay a poverty wage."

The 12 million families represent 11.2 percent of all U.S. households. "At some time during the year," the report said, "these households were uncertain of having, or unable to acquire, enough food for all their members because they had insufficient money or other resources."

A new study by the Center for an Urban Future, a nonprofit research group, found that more than 550,000 families in New York - a quarter of all working families in the state - had incomes that were too low to cover their basic needs.

ps: you really should read the nyt if you want to have a serious discussion about p&n

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: JacobJ
ps: read the article

pps: post a non-subscription link

 

[isasir]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

Originally posted by: isasir
One of the things in the debates that stuck out to me was Kerry's desire to raise the minimum wage to $8/hr. So while this wasn't a major focus of the elections, this would help alleviate the problem of people feeding themselves (assuming of course they put food high on their priority list of necessities.)

I've come to realize though that a lot of people really just care about themselves (hence "moral values" having such an impact on the election) and as long as these poor people don't harass them for change, they'll just continue on their merry way.

You don't understand economics, do you. $8/hr would simply put those businesses who pay minimum wage out of business.

You don't understand reading comprehension do you? I never said I was for or against Kerry's plan. I merely said that if he rose the min. wage and employees made more, they would be able to afford more food.

P.S. I wasn't a big fan of a min. wage raise to $8/hr., not that it matters in this discussion.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: isasir
One of the things in the debates that stuck out to me was Kerry's desire to raise the minimum wage to $8/hr. So while this wasn't a major focus of the elections, this would help alleviate the problem of people feeding themselves (assuming of course they put food high on their priority list of necessities.)

I've come to realize though that a lot of people really just care about themselves (hence "moral values" having such an impact on the election) and as long as these poor people don't harass them for change, they'll just continue on their merry way.

How is raising the minimum wage going to change the poverty level? All that will do is drive up the prices of goods even further. When you raise the minimum wage you raise not just the direct cost of labor to corporations, but all the indirect costs that come with it. You're diluting everyone's earning power.

I have known families that raised 10, 15 kids in a farmhouse on a farmer's widow's income. Yes, money can be tight, or nonexistent. But it's doable. Kids get jobs and contribute to supporting the family. Remember hand-me-downs? I do. My mother's family does. Remember not having a car? Or living in a trailer? Or working menial jobs?

No one has a right to anything in this world beyond the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not happiness, not a leg up, but the right to pursue the paths we choose.

 

[jlmadyson]

Originally posted by: JacobJ
a few excerpts from the article

The definitions can be elastic and easily blurred, but essentially we're talking about individuals and families that don't have enough money to cover the essentials - food, shelter, clothing, transportation and so forth.)

According to the study: "Most low-income working families do not conform to the popular stereotype of the working poor as young, single, fast-food workers: 88 percent of low-income working families include a parent between 25 and 54 years old. Married couples head 53 percent of these families nationwide. Important jobs such as health aide, janitor and child care worker pay a poverty wage."

The 12 million families represent 11.2 percent of all U.S. households. "At some time during the year," the report said, "these households were uncertain of having, or unable to acquire, enough food for all their members because they had insufficient money or other resources."

A new study by the Center for an Urban Future, a nonprofit research group, found that more than 550,000 families in New York - a quarter of all working families in the state - had incomes that were too low to cover their basic needs.

ps: you really should read the nyt if you want to have a serious discussion about p&n

NYT :laugh:

 

[jhu]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

oh, because its obviously their fault that they can't eat. They'd rather watch movies than starve, right? And kiddies! How dare them have kiddies!

well, the issue is the timing of events. if these people were starving before hand, and then started having kids, then wtf are they doing having kids? if they weren't starving, had kids, and lost their jobs, then we have a legitimate problem.

so the issue is, why do people have children when they can't even take care of themselves?

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: isasir
One of the things in the debates that stuck out to me was Kerry's desire to raise the minimum wage to $8/hr. So while this wasn't a major focus of the elections, this would help alleviate the problem of people feeding themselves (assuming of course they put food high on their priority list of necessities.)

I've come to realize though that a lot of people really just care about themselves (hence "moral values" having such an impact on the election) and as long as these poor people don't harass them for change, they'll just continue on their merry way.

How is raising the minimum wage going to change the poverty level? All that will do is drive up the prices of goods even further. When you raise the minimum wage you raise not just the direct cost of labor to corporations, but all the indirect costs that come with it. You're diluting everyone's earning power.

I have known families that raised 10, 15 kids in a farmhouse on a farmer's widow's income. Yes, money can be tight, or nonexistent. But it's doable. Kids get jobs and contribute to supporting the family. Remember hand-me-downs? I do. My mother's family does. Remember not having a car? Or living in a trailer? Or working menial jobs?

No one has a right to anything in this world beyond the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Not happiness, not a leg up, but the right to pursue the paths we choose.

With so many of our goods being manufactured overseas now, I wonder how much it actually would drive up the price of goods...in fact inflation of wages/prices might not be a bad thing considering the sinking price of our dollar...I wonder what various economists have to say on that subject...

but the bottom line is that something is seriously wrong when 12 millions households struggle to eat in the United States of America.

 

[dmcowen674]

What a bunch of blowhards about going out of business if Min wage increased, you act like the Min wage has never been raised ever before.

How many Companoies went out of Biz immediately after and because of previous Min wage increases???

If there were any then like I said, good riddance because they weren't viable Biz's worth a flip if they were that much on the edge as it is.

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

oh, because its obviously their fault that they can't eat. They'd rather watch movies than starve, right? And kiddies! How dare them have kiddies!

well, the issue is the timing of events. if these people were starving before hand, and then started having kids, then wtf are they doing having kids? if they weren't starving, had kids, and lost their jobs, then we have a legitimate problem.

so the issue is, why do people have children when they can't even take care of themselves?

what people? should janitors have the right to have children????

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

You don't understand economics, do you. $8/hr would simply put those businesses who pay minimum wage out of business.

Businesses that can't afford to properly compensate their employees deserves to be "Out of Business".

I think a car should cost $200,000,000. What? You can't afford that? Well, people that can't afford to properly compensate the automotive industry deserve to walk.

Why do some of you people seem to think business are some anonymous entities, run by hordes of unfeeling robots, perhaps? Business are run by people. People like you. People like your family. People like your friends. There are not inherently evil or corrupt, no more than people are inherently evil or corrupt.

To simply suggest that all businesses immediately be forced to pay thier employees 2x what they make now and that would "fix" any economic problems "the poor" are having shows an extreme lack of knowledge and naïvety about the workings of the economy. It's not even remotely that easy, and most of you know it.

 

[jhu]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Those people who struggle to eat, I'd be very curious to see the contents of their household. Do they smoke? Drink alochol? Buy lottery tickets? Have stacks of movies and video games for the kiddies?

oh, because its obviously their fault that they can't eat. They'd rather watch movies than starve, right? And kiddies! How dare them have kiddies!

well, the issue is the timing of events. if these people were starving before hand, and then started having kids, then wtf are they doing having kids? if they weren't starving, had kids, and lost their jobs, then we have a legitimate problem.

so the issue is, why do people have children when they can't even take care of themselves?

what people? should janitors have the right to have children????

if they can afford to