How much do doctor's really make???

[vi edit]

Inpatient based MD's (sometimes called hospitalists) don't make much more than my wife does as a pharmacist. Factor in 2x as much schooling and the malpractice and they might even have a lower take home than she does. Plus they have to do call and brutal residencies. You do that job because you want to, not be because it's an easy way to wealth.

And for what it's worth, my daughters pediatrician has an early 90's beat up accord as a daily driver. I also play basketball with a dozen or so hospital based doctors. I'd hazard to guess that their nursing staff are driving around in nicer, newer cars than the MD's are. They are pretty modest guys.

Now surgeons and specialists are an entirely different ballgame. The guys that you only get to from referrals...those guys are at a standard of living that family practice and inpatient MD's will only dream of. But you also sell your soul for the dollar in those gigs. They are the capitalists of the healthcare industry. For good and bad.

 

[Jzero]

I'm all for PAs for clinic settings, but even seeing a PA is really expensive.

I went in to have a something looked at. The PA came in, looked at my problem for 30 seconds, talked to me for 3 minutes, and wrote me a prescription. Without insurance, that visit would have cost me $550.

The "List Price" billed to your insurance company is potentially a LOT different than what they would bill you directly if you were paying directly and had no insurance. They play all sorts of goofy games with the pricing. For example I've got a statement for bloodwork where the lab billed $85 and the insurance paid them $5...that's not a mistake, FIVE dollars. If you walked in and had no insurance, you would likely not be billed the full $85.

 

[steppinthrax]

Unless you are in sales, I think it's pretty hard to justify spending more on clothes or cars than you can afford. Also, I'd rather have a good cash flow than net worth. Life is for living, not squirrelling.

I think what he is trying to say is, many people who follow professions such as MD etc.. They tend to dress, drive, eat, drink and in generally spend like one. Whereas pepole like plumbers, electricians generally stay more down to earth (for the most part).

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

How many rich businessmen do you know who safely started businesses on the side?

How many rich businessmen do you know who dropped everything and devoted all their energy into one thing?

There isn't time to be a successful worker in a company and start your own business at the same time. If you're devoting enough time into your side business to make it successful, then you're probably not devoting enough time to your main job, in which case you're compromising your main steady source of income.

Of course, there are always exceptions.

Leros, you're my new hero. I grew up in the generation that 'knew' the road to success was getting a college degree. The common perception was, you go to college or you dig ditches.

The risks in becoming successful or even comfortable are legion. That doesn't mean that the risks shouldn't be taken or, that you don't do everything you can to mitigate possible failure. It does mean that even with the 'right' education, experience and 'drive, achieving that success is an uphill fight that is stacked against you.

It's stacked against you because big business, society and, educators do not believe in enlightened self interest. The concept of everyone being better off if they can make a buck has been lost. The New American Dream is to find an advantage and not only make your own buck but, to do your damndest to keep anyone else from making a buck in the same business.

 

[steppinthrax]

What if you take their take home pay and divide it by the number of hours worked?

That's a pretty good statement.

 

[GCS]

It completely depends on what area they work and if they work for a LARGE practice, are a partner in a large practice, or are out on their own.

I have several medical professionals as clients ranging from psychiatrists to chiros and all in between.

Average nurse client - about 50-60k (that includes shift work and OT)
OR Nurse clients - about 80k

Dermatologist (partner in decent sized firm) 500k per year (this is AFTER ALL expenses have been paid!!)

Anesthesiologist - 800k per year (an employee of a LARGE group - not a partner)

Psychiatrist - 120k a year after all expenses (she is on her own and has only 1 employee - secretary)

Social Worker - 50k a year (also on her own)

Physical Therapist - 100k a year works for several people as an employee (again this is after all expenses)

Family Doctor - barely brings home anything been doing it for 40 years (small practice with him and a nurse and a secretary but he keeps a small patient load and lower hours of operation.

So yes some of them make big bucks, some make nothing.

Greg

(Edit this is only a small sampling)

 

[Blackjack200]

I think what he is trying to say is, many people who follow professions such as MD etc.. They tend to dress, drive, eat, drink and in generally spend like one. Whereas pepole like plumbers, electricians generally stay more down to earth (for the most part).

ok, but vi edit said this:

And for what it's worth, my daughters pediatrician has an early 90's beat up accord as a daily driver. I also play basketball with a dozen or so hospital based doctors. I'd hazard to guess that their nursing staff are driving around in nicer, newer cars than the MD's are. They are pretty modest guys.

So this is clearly not the case for all doctors. FWIW, I don't think anyone should live beyond their means, but if you make good money, I don't see anything wrong with spending it as opposed to just obsessively building your net worth. Again, you can't take it with you.

 

[blurredvision]

Family doctors and pediatricians are typically the lowest paid doctors. Most of them make ~$125k; give or take $50k. That is after all their costs and fees. They don't make as much as you'd think since for a long time every doctor wanted to be a family doctor or a pediatrician. Who doesn't want to help the innocent young children?

If you become a specialist, double or triple that number. $200k-$300k is common after all costs for a surgeon, ER doctor, etc. Some high end specialists (anesthetist for example) can easilly make $300k-$500k after all costs. Heck, a nurse anesthetist makes more money than most doctors. Your life is in their hands every time they see you, and thus people are willing to pay more. A family doctor/pediatrician hardly ever has someone's life in their hands.

A very close family member of mine just graduated from graduate school 8 months ago as a nurse anesthetist. She interviewed and was offered several jobs a month before she even graduated, and decided to come back and live near home. She started out at 130k/year. In addition, they pay 100% of her malpractice insurance and also help somewhat on paying down her education loans somewhat, although in what capacity I'm not entirely sure. This is in central Kentucky, I can't imagine what she would be able to get elsewhere. Making 130k/year in central KY is living like a king.

 

[vi edit]

So this is clearly not the case for all doctors. FWIW, I don't think anyone should live beyond their means, but if you make good money, I don't see anything wrong with spending it as opposed to just obsessively building your net worth. Again, you can't take it with you.

The thing with doctors is that many of them have spouses that either stay at home or work part time. So they are only on single income. If you are a specialist banking $300-500k a year that's a decent gig. If you are a hospitalist or primary care on a single income then your standard of living isn't that much different than a couple 4 year degreed professionals with decent jobs. "Dr." is a very broad term with huge range of income levels.

 

[DesiPower]

I see all docs living in upscale neighborhoods in million dollar homes and driving Mercedes and Lexus and shee like that...

 

[Slew Foot]

Im probably the only doctor posting in this thread so far. Most primary care types (FP, peds, general practicioner, OB/GYN in the primary care setting) dont get paid crap. I think UC Davis is hiring new pediatricians for 90k/yr (but not anymore since the state is broke). Specialists can make more usually on the order of 200-400 depending on specialty or location. Making more than that is VERY rare, despite all the anecdotal evidence spouted by people.

 

[Blackjack200]

Im probably the only doctor posting in this thread so far. Most primary care types (FP, peds, general practicioner, OB/GYN in the primary care setting) dont get paid crap. I think UC Davis is hiring new pediatricians for 90k/yr (but not anymore since the state is broke). Specialists can make more usually on the order of 200-400 depending on specialty or location. Making more than that is VERY rare, despite all the anecdotal evidence spouted by people.

That was my general perception. I was shocked to hear about the $800k anesthesiologist.

 

[vi edit]

That was my general perception. I was shocked to hear about the $800k anesthesiologist.

It's both region and practice type specific. A pharmacist can make $70k working for a state hospital or they can make $120k working for a private one. I'm sure physician pay is a similar trend if they are hospital owned. An anesthesiologist in a rural hospital can make $500k a year but he might be on call 365 days a year for that price since he's the only one in the area that does it.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

It is needed to appease doctors so we can get bigger reforms passed, but it is a negligible cost in the whole scheme of things.

but it will drive down overall medical costs because doctor's won't be practicing defensively and ordering tons of unnecessary shit in fear of being sued.

 

[zinfamous]

I always had this concept that MDs make big bucks. I was talking to a couple, particularly my daugther's pediatrician. He asked me what field I was it (IT), he said I was lucky. He told me this.

1. Medical Malpractice Insurance.
2. Rent for office
3. Supplies (office, medical)
4. Salary for two overworked secretaries
5. Salary for nurse.
6. Fees for liscenses etc...

He said his take home pay averages around $70K a year. WTF????

of course, most of those expenses are for a doctor with a private practice.

salary and cost of malpractice is very dependent on the specialty.

 

[zinfamous]

I was just mentioning that profession as a possibiltiy. I think a business man (MBA) or invester would probably have more possibility to expand their income than an MD.

anyone is a businessman or an investor. No one needs an MBA to succeed or fail at either. The rationale being that the ave physician has more inherent education/knowledge to succeed at a wider variety of pursuits than the ave plumber or businessman.

 

[Blackjack200]

anyone is a businessman or an investor. No one needs an MBA to succeed or fail at either. The rationale being that the ave physician has more inherent education/knowledge to succeed at a wider variety of pursuits than the ave plumber or businessman.

I think some in this thread are using "business man" as a synonym for "corporate employee", i.e. some kind of management role in an F500. To get that kind of job you generally do need some kind of degree, usually a marketing, business, or finance degree.

Despite the popular image of these workers as bland paper pushers, they generally become very familiar with the industry they are working in, and can build contacts and spot opportunities for a business venture down the road. Physicians don't generally get this kind of exposure to Corporate America.

 

[zinfamous]

I think some in this thread are using "business man" as a synonym for "corporate employee", i.e. some kind of management role in an F500. To get that kind of job you generally do need some kind of degree, usually a marketing, business, or finance degree.

Despite the popular image of these workers as bland paper pushers, they generally become very familiar with the industry they are working in, and can build contacts and spot opportunities for a business venture down the road. Physicians don't generally get this kind of exposure to Corporate America.

Yes, but the point your'e missing si that getting there doesn't really require an education. Yes, some positions may require a piece of paper for entrance, but what is behind that paper? a degree in marketing/"business"/etc?

don't make me laugh.

the issue is that the type of skills necessary for someone to be successful in business aren't taught in any kind of educational setting--they are inherent, and they are gained through experience.

I haven't heard or read of a single billionaire that didn't attribute a large portion of their success to luck--yes, one does need to take risks, or one needs to be born into success. business itself is such a vague term, in that it doesn't limit itself to one industry. Paris Hilton is a very successful businesswoman. brains need not apply for some. For others, sure.

What is true, however, is that one can't simply be grandfathered into the medical field. It requires a shit-ton of work and school, a thick skin to deal with the post-school costs and stress, the post-school training, the daily grind of work which is light years more stressful than the ave business-related job, and a skill set that very much resembles the type of personality and communication skills necessary to be successful in business.

I suppose what this is getting at is this:

1) Every physician can be a businessman
2) Not every businessman can be a physician.

you could also edit like this:
1)Every * can be a businessman

Of course, many successful businessmen can choose to quit and go back to med school to change their careers...but if they were successful to begin with, salary coiuldn't possibly be a motivation. It would mean a minimum of 4 years school + 3 intern + massive debt before making an income again. (I would say average is ~10 years, upwards of 13-15 years for some internships (surgery)).

 

[Ns1]

wall of text

++

 

[HumblePie]

Yeah, if your goal is to just get rich I don't think getting a medical degree is your best plan. It seems like a long hard slog followed by a difficult day to day career. I couldn't do it.

Unless you become a dermatologist, because from what I can tell that job is pretty tits. Freeze a few warts off, tell everyone else to put elidel on whatever it is and call it a day. They probably get paid better then primary care guys because they're specialists.

Except when you are dealing with burn victims, skin grafts, skin cancer, and some of the nastiest looking people who never shower and wonder what is this new growth/rash/shingle on their ass is. Every job has it's dirty side.

 

[Blackjack200]

Yes, but the point your'e missing si that getting there doesn't really require an education. Yes, some positions may require a piece of paper for entrance, but what is behind that paper? a degree in marketing/"business"/etc?

don't make me laugh.

Hey, I have a business degree. 🙁

the issue is that the type of skills necessary for someone to be successful in business aren't taught in any kind of educational setting--they are inherent, and they are gained through experience.

I haven't heard or read of a single billionaire that didn't attribute a large portion of their success to luck--yes, one does need to take risks, or one needs to be born into success. business itself is such a vague term, in that it doesn't limit itself to one industry. Paris Hilton is a very successful businesswoman. brains need not apply for some. For others, sure.

This is true and it's not true. There are many business skills that are innate or simply learned on the job, but there are certain aspects such as marketing and operations that are grounded in theory and have to be learned first. If you're saying that the level of education required is not as much as a physician, I would agree.

Paris Hilton is succesful because she has her sexuality and notoriety to market. Not a good example IMO. It's like saying Alex Rodriguez is a succesful businessman because he signs endorsement deals.

As far as billionaires are concerned, I agree, that is mostly luck.

What is true, however, is that one can't simply be grandfathered into the medical field. It requires a shit-ton of work and school, a thick skin to deal with the post-school costs and stress, the post-school training, the daily grind of work which is light years more stressful than the ave business-related job, and a skill set that very much resembles the type of personality and communication skills necessary to be successful in business.

I suppose what this is getting at is this:

1) Every physician can be a businessman
2) Not every businessman can be a physician.

you could also edit like this:
1)Every * can be a businessman

Yeah, I guess we just disagree here. In my experience, corporate officers that make physician type money have skill levels and stress levels on the order of physicians, if not more. And they work constantly.

Of course, many successful businessmen can choose to quit and go back to med school to change their careers...but if they were successful to begin with, salary coiuldn't possibly be a motivation. It would mean a minimum of 4 years school + 3 intern + massive debt before making an income again. (I would say average is ~10 years, upwards of 13-15 years for some internships (surgery)).

While I wouldn't consider myself a "successful businessman", I do have a corporate job making decent money, and am actually taking pre-med coursework right now. I'm not sure yet that I want to go to medical school, but I'm taking the courses and then will decide. If I were to take the MCATs, apply to medical school and get in, it would indeed be 4 years of school and 3 years of internship. The debt would probably not be as excessive as other students take on since I'll have substantial savings at that point, and a house to sell.

I can tell you that salary is not a motivation.

 

[pontifex]

doctor's what?

 

[Hacp]

Yes, but the point your'e missing si that getting there doesn't really require an education. Yes, some positions may require a piece of paper for entrance, but what is behind that paper? a degree in marketing/"business"/etc?

don't make me laugh.

the issue is that the type of skills necessary for someone to be successful in business aren't taught in any kind of educational setting--they are inherent, and they are gained through experience.

I haven't heard or read of a single billionaire that didn't attribute a large portion of their success to luck--yes, one does need to take risks, or one needs to be born into success. business itself is such a vague term, in that it doesn't limit itself to one industry. Paris Hilton is a very successful businesswoman. brains need not apply for some. For others, sure.

What is true, however, is that one can't simply be grandfathered into the medical field. It requires a shit-ton of work and school, a thick skin to deal with the post-school costs and stress, the post-school training, the daily grind of work which is light years more stressful than the ave business-related job, and a skill set that very much resembles the type of personality and communication skills necessary to be successful in business.

I suppose what this is getting at is this:

1) Every physician can be a businessman
2) Not every businessman can be a physician.

you could also edit like this:
1)Every * can be a businessman

Of course, many successful businessmen can choose to quit and go back to med school to change their careers...but if they were successful to begin with, salary coiuldn't possibly be a motivation. It would mean a minimum of 4 years school + 3 intern + massive debt before making an income again. (I would say average is ~10 years, upwards of 13-15 years for some internships (surgery)).

You can't think of one? I can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Harris_Simons