judasmachine
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We maintained the roads and had an army to protect common interests. Shouldn't a government, by it's very nature, only provide socialist services?
Vic
Elite Member
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Tons and tons and tons. Virtually our entire economy in the late 1800s was driven off the federal government's distribution and sale of land and resources that had formerly belonged to the native americans. Far from being the true capitalism that people think it was, the late 1800's in American represented a kind of proto-fascism, with government constantly dealing out wealth and favors to a select few.
Vic
Elite Member
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Ah yes... if only we could kill off all those pesky infidels, then we could have our utopia...Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Vic
Utopia communism does not, has never, and will never exist. Stalinist communism is the end result of communism ALWAYS. The reason is the same as why anarchy does not work. Power vacuums create the worst of dictators.Originally posted by: RichardE
Utopia Communism, not Stalin communism.
Liberal, or democratic, socialism is a contradiction in terms. Given the unlimited power, the people can be just as tyrannical as the worst dictator. Hence the expression, "mob rule."
The current Bush Administration is not true republicanism, but more akin to a South American-esque fascism, and as such has more in common with any socialism (and socialism more in common with it) than any true liberalism.
Thanks for yet another pointless (and completely wrong) personal attack, t:roll:
What communism is supposed to be is irrelevant. It is a pipe dream that will never happen. I consider Marx's utopist vision of the "worker's paradise" to be on the same level of fantasy as the Christian "second coming" of Christ. And with similar inevitable results when people are deluded enough to believe in such utopist bullsh!t.
"Nearly all creators of Utopia have resembled the man who has toothache, and therefore thinks happiness consists in not having toothache. They wanted to produce a perfect society by an endless continuation of something that had only been valuable because it was temporary. The wider course would be to say that there are certain lines along which humanity must move, the grand strategy is mapped out, but detailed prophecy is not our business. Whoever tries to imagine perfection simply reveals his own emptiness."
-- George Orwell, Why Socialists Don't Believe in Fun, 1943
Utopia could exist if a leader who disposed of all the disenters than followed the dream, while at the same time ensuring that people from birth were brought up to believe the way it is, is the way it was suppose and always will be.
Outside influenced, which brings the introduction of non-communistic ideals is always the failure of a state. If one could become a leader without greed, dispose of all disenters and begin a process of brainwashing the children from birth to be hyper-patriotic to the point where any idea besides the governments is rejected, you could have Utopia communism.
Of course the beginning of this is not idea, but all revolutions have growing pains.
You realize this only proves my assertion that communism is a religion, right?
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
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Actually it was, took place right here in the US (although it occured prior to the establishment of the "US"). In early colonial days there was a true/pure communist coloney, it eventual fell apart for the obvious reasons: human nature> people bickering over who wasn't working enough etc.
Vic
Elite Member
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The early Mormons also experimented with a pure socialism, which fell apart for the same inevitable reasons. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young declared that socialism was the government that God had intended for mankind. The organization of the Mormon church still reflects this attempt at socialism, with mandatory tithes, "wards" and "stakes" for local administration, and bishops who exert a rather large amount of economic control over local ward members. LBJ's "Great Society" welfare program was almost a direct copy of the Mormon welfare system.
You can't really call those early attempts at socialism "communisms" because: (1) they occured before Marx wrote his manifesto, and (2) they were brought about by peaceful means, whereas communism is more or less defined from socialism by Marx's nihilism of requiring a violent revolution.
Those early socialisms in the US do demonstrate the Christian religion origins of socialism though, not just the Mormons but also the Harmony Society (edit: which is what I think you were referring to, that was in Indiana in the 1820s).
There can be soooo many different forms of communism.
But if you said something like the danish form of capitalism (socialism), you know i'd choose that.
But if you said something like the danish form of capitalism (socialism), you know i'd choose that.
Originally posted by: Vic
Ah yes... if only we could kill off all those pesky infidels, then we could have our utopia...Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: Vic
Utopia communism does not, has never, and will never exist. Stalinist communism is the end result of communism ALWAYS. The reason is the same as why anarchy does not work. Power vacuums create the worst of dictators.Originally posted by: RichardE
Utopia Communism, not Stalin communism.
Liberal, or democratic, socialism is a contradiction in terms. Given the unlimited power, the people can be just as tyrannical as the worst dictator. Hence the expression, "mob rule."
The current Bush Administration is not true republicanism, but more akin to a South American-esque fascism, and as such has more in common with any socialism (and socialism more in common with it) than any true liberalism.
Thanks for yet another pointless (and completely wrong) personal attack, t:roll:
What communism is supposed to be is irrelevant. It is a pipe dream that will never happen. I consider Marx's utopist vision of the "worker's paradise" to be on the same level of fantasy as the Christian "second coming" of Christ. And with similar inevitable results when people are deluded enough to believe in such utopist bullsh!t.
"Nearly all creators of Utopia have resembled the man who has toothache, and therefore thinks happiness consists in not having toothache. They wanted to produce a perfect society by an endless continuation of something that had only been valuable because it was temporary. The wider course would be to say that there are certain lines along which humanity must move, the grand strategy is mapped out, but detailed prophecy is not our business. Whoever tries to imagine perfection simply reveals his own emptiness."
-- George Orwell, Why Socialists Don't Believe in Fun, 1943
Utopia could exist if a leader who disposed of all the disenters than followed the dream, while at the same time ensuring that people from birth were brought up to believe the way it is, is the way it was suppose and always will be.
Outside influenced, which brings the introduction of non-communistic ideals is always the failure of a state. If one could become a leader without greed, dispose of all disenters and begin a process of brainwashing the children from birth to be hyper-patriotic to the point where any idea besides the governments is rejected, you could have Utopia communism.
Of course the beginning of this is not idea, but all revolutions have growing pains.
You realize this only proves my assertion that communism is a religion, right?
All governments are religous like in principle. And disposing of infidels happens in every society. You just make a demon out of the other side, the same thing we would be doing for a communistic uptopia. The present United States has been built on the fear of the other kind, be it "we must destroy monarch rule" "we must destroy facism" "we must destroy communism" "we must destroy Jihad/extreminist/relgious government (that is not our religion). It is all the same thing. The sacrifices to obtain a communist uptopia would be worth it though.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Not all governments are like that, only those that have (or would have) totalitarian agendas. The US did not use the propaganda of fear until WWII. The revolution against the monarchy was not a campaign of fear, but one against blatant and well-defined injustice (Text).
As to the part of your post that I bolded, I am sure that Stalin and Mao told their people the same thing as they murdered tens of millions. And look what they accomplished!! The sacrifices in humans lives to obtain a communist utopia would never be worth it because no amount of sacrificing will ever obtain that utopia. The means can never justify the ends, as means are ends unto themselves.
I believe a Republic with everything from Anarchy to Fascism mixed in. Dynamic stability.
A country controlled by a single political philosphy can only lead to stagnation.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
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Hey Vic, google it. You'll find plenty of references to communist utopia colonies, even as late as the 1850's.
While Marx is credited with creating the concept, it's pretty clear he didn't. No need for a violent revolution, these peeps were able to "start from scratch" so to speak.
No trying to argue with you, rather support my original claim that indeed "communism" was achieved even if for a relatively brief period (again, communism not socialism)
Well the U.S. is not stagnant.
It is in firm control by Corporate Whores, Churches, Saudi Oil Barons and Vicente Fox.
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