How Many Frenchmen Does it Take to Defend Paris?: Article Refutes Joke

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0
A: Over 100,000 in WWII

Interesting article confronts the age-old joke here.

Settle down and listen up
Time for a quick primer on French history. This means you, George Will


AUSTIN, Texas -- As our coaches used to say, "OK, people, settle down and listen up." We have been enjoying a lovely little spate of French-bashing here lately. Jonah Goldberg of The National Review, who admits that French-bashing is "shtick" -- as it is to many American comedians -- has popularized the phrase "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" to describe the French. It gets a lot less attractive than that.
George Will saw fit to include in his latest Newsweek column this joke: "How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows, it's never been tried." That was certainly amusing. One million, four hundred thousand French soldiers were killed during World War I. As a result, there weren't many Frenchmen left to fight in World War II. Nevertheless, 100,000 French soldiers lost their lives trying to stop Hitler.

On behalf of every one of those 100,000 men, I would like to thank Mr. Will for his clever joke. They were out-manned, out-gunned, out-generaled and, above all, out-tanked. They got slaughtered, but they stood and they fought. Ha-ha, how funny. In the few places where they had tanks, they held splendidly.

Relying on the Maginot Line was one of the great military follies of modern history, but it does not reflect on the courage of those who died for France in 1940. For eighteen months after that execrable defeat, the United States of America continued to have cordial diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany.

One of the great what-ifs of history is: What would have happened if Franklin Roosevelt had lived to the end of his last term? How many wars have been lost in the peace? For those of you who have not read "Paris 1919," I recommend it highly. Roosevelt was anti-colonialist. That system was a great evil, a greater horror even than Nazism or Stalinism.

If you have read "Leopold's Ghost" by Adam Hochschild, you have some idea. The French were in it up to their necks. Instead of insisting on freedom for the colonies of Europe, we let our allies carry on with the system, leaving the British in India and Africa, and the French in Vietnam and Algeria, to everyone's eventual regret.

Surrender monkeys? Try Dien Bien Phu. Yes, the French did surrender, didn't they? After 6,000 French dead in a no-hope position. Ever heard of the Foreign Legion? Of the paratroopers, called "paras"? God, the trouble we could have saved ourselves if we had only paid attention to Dien Bien Phu.

Then came Algeria for the French. As nasty a war as has ever been fought. If you have seen the film "Battle of Algiers," you have some idea. Five generations of pieds noirs, French colonialists, thought it was their country. Charles de Gaulle came back into power in 1958, specifically elected to keep Algeria French. I consider de Gaulle's long, slow, delicate, elephantine withdrawal (de Gaulle even looked like an elephant) one of the single greatest acts of statesmanship in history. Only de Gaulle could have done that.

Those were the years when France learned about terrorism. The plastiquers were all over Paris. The "plastic" bombs, the ones you can stick like Play-Do underneath the ledge of some building, were the popular weapon du jour. It made Israel today look tame. For France, terrorism is, "Been there, done that."

The other night on "60 Minutes," Andy Rooney, who fought in France and certainly has a right to be critical, chided the French for forgetting all that sacrifice (100,000 Frenchmen died trying to stop Hitler in 1940, and 150,000 Allied troops died to liberate that nation in 1944.) But I think he got it backward: The French remember too well.

I was in Paris on Sept. 11, 2001. The reaction was so immediate, so generous, so overwhelming. Not just the government, but the people kept bringing flowers to the American embassy. They covered the American Cathedral, the American Church, anything they could find that was American. They didn't just leave flowers, they wrote notes with them. I read over 100 of them. Not only did they refer, again and again, to Normandy, to never forgetting, there were even some in ancient, spidery handwriting referring to WW I: "Lafayette is still with you."

Look, the French are not a touchy-feely people. They're more, like, logical. For them to approach total strangers in the streets who look American and hug them is seriously extraordinary. I got patted so much I felt like a Labrador retriever. I wish Andy Rooney had been there.

This is where I think the real difference is. We Americans are famously ahistorical. We can barely be bothered to remember what happened last week, or last month, much less last year. The French are really stuck on history. (Some might claim this is because the French are better educated than we are. I won't go there.) Does it not occur to anyone that these are very old friends of ours, trying to tell us what they think they know about being hated by weak enemies in the Third World?
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
100,000 men is nothing. napoleon lost droves more, the french wussed out against hitler. russians took the brunt instead.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
a country that once mustered one million troops under napoleon loses 100,000 and gives up? i say huff!
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
a country that once mustered one million troops under napoleon loses 100,000 and gives up? i say huff!

One and a half million soldiers died 20 years earlier. Imagine the whole US army, from the lowest to the highest officer dying, and it needing to be rebuild from the start without any experienced soldiers available. That might take a while. No wonder they were scared sh!tless and turned into cheese-eating surrender monkeys.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
a little more losses by country during ww2. to rub it in for the surrender monkeys.

russia. 13.6 MILLION military lost.



Country Military Civilian Deaths
USSR 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan - - 2,000,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,706,000
Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
France 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary - - 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece - - 520,000
United States 500,000 - 500,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia - - 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
Netherlands 198,000 12,000 210,000
Belgium 76,000 12,000 88,000
Finland - - 84,000
Canada 39,000 - 39,000
India 36,000 - 36,000
Australia 29,000 - 29,000
Albania - - 28,000
Spain 12,000 10,000 22,000
Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
New Zealand 12,000 - 12,000
Norway - - 10,262
South Africa 9,000 - 9,000
Luxembourg - - 5,000
Denmark 4,000 - 4,000
Total - - 56,125,262
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Country Military Civilian Deaths
Japan - - 2,000,000

Wow, Hiroshima and Nagasaki avoided all Civilians? Talking about smart bombs!

Wonder if those numbers also include deportations, some seem a bit low.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
a country that once mustered one million troops under napoleon loses 100,000 and gives up? i say huff!

One and a half million soldiers died 20 years earlier. Imagine the whole US army, from the lowest to the highest officer dying, and it needing to be rebuild from the start without any experienced soldiers available. That might take a while. No wonder they were scared sh!tless and turned into cheese-eating surrender monkeys.


yes, one millions quite a bit to lose, but it was out of eight and a half million.

russia hurt just as badly during ww1, yet they mustered more staying power during ww2. willing to burn their own cities to keep hitler from using them. the french were less dedicated.
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
0
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Country Military Civilian Deaths
Japan - - 2,000,000

Wow, Hiroshima and Nagasaki avoided all Civilians? Talking about smart bombs!

Wonder if those numbers also include deportations, some seem a bit low.

I was wondering the same thing...
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Country Military Civilian Deaths
Japan - - 2,000,000

Wow, Hiroshima and Nagasaki avoided all Civilians? Talking about smart bombs!

Wonder if those numbers also include deportations, some seem a bit low.

no, that site just does'nt have info on the japanese. kinda wacked. anyways i found another site that says 2mil military, 350k civ japanese dead.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
81
It's kinda like making fun of Canada. It may or may not be 100% true, but it sure is funny. I first heard the term "cheese eating surrender monkeys" from Groundskeeper Willie. It's even funnier coming from him.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
a country that once mustered one million troops under napoleon loses 100,000 and gives up? i say huff!

One and a half million soldiers died 20 years earlier. Imagine the whole US army, from the lowest to the highest officer dying, and it needing to be rebuild from the start without any experienced soldiers available. That might take a while. No wonder they were scared sh!tless and turned into cheese-eating surrender monkeys.


yes, one millions quite a bit to lose, but it was out of eight and a half million.

russia hurt just as badly during ww1, yet they mustered more staying power during ww2. willing to burn their own cities to keep hitler from using them. the french were less dedicated.

Scorched earth tactic requires a lot of land. France is much smaller than Russia, so it would not have worked there anyway. The Germans would still have been able to use their own supply lines, and it would just have destroyed part of the country.

Compare the size of France and Russia.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
it's the french (and perhaps, british) fault for doing absolutely nothing when germany repeatedly broke the treaty of versailles. Hell, the french were right there watching the germans as they massed troops across the border in their industrial region and they did nothing. They suffered the consequences of doing nothing. Deja vous, anyone?
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Originally posted by: Dari
it's the french (and perhaps, british) fault for doing absolutely nothing when germany repeatedly broke the treaty of versailles. Hell, the french were right there watching the germans as they massed troops across the border in their industrial region and they did nothing. They suffered the consequences of doing nothing. Deja vous, anyone?

The French cross their fingers and hope for the best outcome by doing nothing(The ostrich approach)?


No way...that is so not like them....:D
 

Ynog

Golden Member
Oct 9, 2002
1,782
1
0
It wasn't like the reparations put on the Germans after World War 1 had
anything to do with the WW2 starting. Pretty sure French had something
to do with why they were so tough. And yes the War was fought on their
soil, but bankrupting a country and sending it into a huge depression wasn't
going to solve anything.

Like to point out too, that France did lose alot of men in WW1, but
as a recall they weren't fighthing themselves, they were fighting
the Germans. And since for the most part, that war was a stalemate
you figure you dealing with about a 1 to 1 kill ratio. So if the Germans
could rebuild their army, why couldn't the French.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
Originally posted by: Ynog
It wasn't like the reparations put on the Germans after World War 1 had
anything to do with the WW2 starting. Pretty sure French had something
to do with why they were so tough. And yes the War was fought on their
soil, but bankrupting a country and sending it into a huge depression wasn't
going to solve anything.

Like to point out too, that France did lose alot of men in WW1, but
as a recall they weren't fighthing themselves, they were fighting
the Germans. And since for the most part, that war was a stalemate
you figure you dealing with about a 1 to 1 kill ratio. So if the Germans
could rebuild their army, why couldn't the French.

because they all returned to their snail farms.
 

BigJelly

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: Ynog
It wasn't like the reparations put on the Germans after World War 1 had
anything to do with the WW2 starting. Pretty sure French had something
to do with why they were so tough. And yes the War was fought on their
soil, but bankrupting a country and sending it into a huge depression wasn't
going to solve anything.

Like to point out too, that France did lose alot of men in WW1, but
as a recall they weren't fighthing themselves, they were fighting
the Germans. And since for the most part, that war was a stalemate
you figure you dealing with about a 1 to 1 kill ratio. So if the Germans
could rebuild their army, why couldn't the French.

They did rebuild and one thing this story neglects is that when Hitler attacked Poland the French had a LARGER army than Germany; they had more men, more tanks, and the Germans main force was in Poland (just on border defense the French out numbered the Germans 6:1). The French could have bitch-slapped Germany then, but they didn't. They thought the war would be about defence--maginot line was impregnible and ardennes forest was unpassable. The French didn't want to have too many casualties because a defensive war in their mind would be less costly. But when Hiter pulled the most basic manuver in history--the flank. The French were able to be surrounded and the rest is history. Had the French mobilized against Germany on september 3--the day they declared war on Germany--the French would have been able to reak havock on the Germans and probably could have won the war, but they didn't and they paid for at--as did the rest of the world.

Like then, today the French aren't willing to a take a lose of lives and like then, it will probably cost more lives in the end if we don't get rid of saddam. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 

Kevin

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2002
3,995
1
0
Originally posted by: BigJelly
They did rebuild and one thing this story neglects is that when Hitler attacked Poland the French had a LARGER army than Germany; they had more men, more tanks, and the Germans main force was in Poland (just on border defense the French out numbered the Germans 6:1). The French could have bitch-slapped Germany then, but they didn't. They thought the war would be about defence--maginot line was impregnible and ardennes forest was unpassable. The French didn't want to have too many casualties because a defensive war in their mind would be less costly. But when Hiter pulled the most basic manuver in history--the flank. The French were able to be surrounded and the rest is history. Had the French mobilized against Germany on september 3--the day they declared war on Germany--the French would have been able to reak havock on the Germans and probably could have won the war, but they didn't and they paid for at--as did the rest of the world.

Like then, today the French aren't willing to a take a lose of lives and like then, it will probably cost more lives in the end if we don't get rid of saddam. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The French didn't treat Americans well even after they liberated France. Ask any WWII Veteran about the French and chances are you'll be answered with every swear in the book. My grandfather told me a story of how they were in a train passing through and when they stopped for supplies, there were these Frenchmen with a barrel full with alcohol. All the GIs were trading there rations and cigarettes. When they got on the train and went to drink, it was vinegar. They were all p*ssed off and some were ready to jump off and hunt them down.

Some even hate the Red Cross. The Red Cross would charge the soldiers whereas other would just give them away. I met one guy who told me they charged them for socks and when he went to put them on, inside was a note saying it was donated by some church in Brooklyn.

The stories are irrelevant but interesting... ;)
 

BigJelly

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: kevin000
The French didn't treat Americans well even after they liberated France. Ask any WWII Veteran about the French and chances are you'll be answered with every swear in the book. My grandfather told me a story of how they were in a train passing through and when they stopped for supplies, there were these Frenchmen with a barrel full with alcohol. All the GIs were trading there rations and cigarettes. When they got on the train and went to drink, it was vinegar. They were all p*ssed off and some were ready to jump off and hunt them down.

Some even hate the Red Cross. The Red Cross would charge the soldiers whereas other would just give them away. I met one guy who told me they charged them for socks and when he went to put them on, inside was a note saying it was donated by some church in Brooklyn.

My grandfather had a dufflebag of german loot--6 lugers, 2 helmets, couple of nazi flags, a lot of hitler youth knives, a cain-gun, a russian watch he traded when he met the Russians at the Elbe, and even a walther ppk (the newest german pistol). All this was stolen in france, to this day my grandfather said he'd never go back to france unless he was there to take it over--and at his age 78 he could.
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
a little more losses by country during ww2. to rub it in for the surrender monkeys.

russia. 13.6 MILLION military lost.



Country Military Civilian Deaths
USSR 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan - - 2,000,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,706,000
Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000
France 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary - - 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece - - 520,000
United States 500,000 - 500,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia - - 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
Netherlands 198,000 12,000 210,000
Belgium 76,000 12,000 88,000
Finland - - 84,000
Canada 39,000 - 39,000
India 36,000 - 36,000
Australia 29,000 - 29,000
Albania - - 28,000
Spain 12,000 10,000 22,000
Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
New Zealand 12,000 - 12,000
Norway - - 10,262
South Africa 9,000 - 9,000
Luxembourg - - 5,000
Denmark 4,000 - 4,000
Total - - 56,125,262



I think these numbers are more sound:

Soviet Union* 8,668,000 16,900,000 25,568,000

China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000

Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000

Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000

Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000

Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000

Rumania* 520,000 465,000 985,000

France* 340,000 470,000 810,000

Hungary* 750,000

Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000

Greece* 520,000

Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000

Czechoslovakia 400,000

Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000

USA 295,000 295,000

Holland 14,000 236,000 250,000

Belgium 10,000 75,000 85,000

Finland 79,000 79,000

Canada 42,000 42,000

India 36,000 *** 36,000

Australia 29,000 29,000

Spain** 12,000 10,000 22,000

Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000

New Zealand 12,000 12,000

South Africa 9,000 9,000

Norway 5,000 5,000

Denmark 4,000 4,000

Total circa 61 Million

SOURCE
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Country Military Civilian Deaths
Japan - - 2,000,000

Wow, Hiroshima and Nagasaki avoided all Civilians? Talking about smart bombs!

Wonder if those numbers also include deportations, some seem a bit low.


Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably had say anywhere from 80,000-100,000 die in the initial blasts each, then at least double that for deaths occuring from the after effects. Tokyo was fired bombed as were a number of other cities and the casualties from Tokyo were estimated to be 175,000. Adding those up you have nearly 750,000. I am not sure of other casualty figures from various Japanese bombings but I would say it would be close to 2 million dead. As high as these numbers are lets not forget that Japan was not taking these kind of civilian causalties for a long period of time as compared to Russia, France, and Germany.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Haha, nothing like only losing 450,000 soldiers... and only 810,000 civilians. I mean, I lose more than that playing my video games every day! This is all one big joke for me! It's not like I'm fighting in the military or giving current affairs any real thought, I just follow what CNN and Fox News tell me. Wow, this sure is all fun and games, one big joke. Woo hoo.
 

Kevin

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2002
3,995
1
0
Originally posted by: BigJelly
Originally posted by: kevin000
The French didn't treat Americans well even after they liberated France. Ask any WWII Veteran about the French and chances are you'll be answered with every swear in the book. My grandfather told me a story of how they were in a train passing through and when they stopped for supplies, there were these Frenchmen with a barrel full with alcohol. All the GIs were trading there rations and cigarettes. When they got on the train and went to drink, it was vinegar. They were all p*ssed off and some were ready to jump off and hunt them down.

Some even hate the Red Cross. The Red Cross would charge the soldiers whereas other would just give them away. I met one guy who told me they charged them for socks and when he went to put them on, inside was a note saying it was donated by some church in Brooklyn.

My grandfather had a dufflebag of german loot--6 lugers, 2 helmets, couple of nazi flags, a lot of hitler youth knives, a cain-gun, a russian watch he traded when he met the Russians at the Elbe, and even a walther ppk (the newest german pistol). All this was stolen in france, to this day my grandfather said he'd never go back to france unless he was there to take it over--and at his age 78 he could.

Yeah, my grandfather told me people would take guns and watches. He was a POW for some time so whatever they took or had, the Germans took back. He curses his Sergeant/Liutenant (not sure which) all the time since him and this other guy had to scout the area. They came back and told him they should fall back. He didn't listen, and they were captured that morning. The Germans didn't torture them or anything, he said they had to march like 20 miles a day with no food.

Most of my stories come from him since he's always willing to talk about it. My other grandfather hates to talk about the war. He was 1 of 3 survivors after a land mine exploded. Still has shrapnel in his back. Was awarded the Purple Heart as well. Funny story is he actually has 2 of them. He was given one while he was in the hospital in Europe. Then when he came back to the states there was a mixup, and they gave him another one...