How many CFM?

moosey

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2001
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The basic system is as follows:
Case: either Lian Li PC-7B PLUS II or Antec Sonata
PSU: PC Power Cooling Silencer
Video: GF 8800GTS
CPU: C2D 2.4ghz w/ good heatsink (not yet decided)

I was wondering what a good amount of CFM would be for the intake and exhaust 120mm fans? 40CFM, 60, 70+? What if there's only an exhaust fan?

The system is for gaming and maybe a little o/c (nothing hardcore). I want to maintain nice temps but don't want anything too loud. Also, I saw those Silenx fans and was wondering if anyone had any input on them.

Thanks
 

pkme2

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2005
3,896
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On my PC-7, I have 4 Yate Loon 120mm fans. I replaced the originals and added a side intake and top exhaust fans.
They keep my case very cool and quiet. My temps are under <45C loads @ 28C ambient.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
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Originally posted by: moosey
The basic system is as follows:
Case: either Lian Li PC-7B PLUS II or Antec Sonata
PSU: PC Power Cooling Silencer
Video: GF 8800GTS
CPU: C2D 2.4ghz w/ good heatsink (not yet decided)

I was wondering what a good amount of CFM would be for the intake and exhaust 120mm fans? 40CFM, 60, 70+? What if there's only an exhaust fan?

The system is for gaming and maybe a little o/c (nothing hardcore). I want to maintain nice temps but don't want anything too loud. Also, I saw those Silenx fans and was wondering if anyone had any input on them.

Thanks


In most systems usually anything over 45cfm -- 55cfm has no greater effect....there something called diminishing returns........Now don`t get me wrong of your running only one 120mm fan then go for all the gusto you can get...

good Luck!!


 

pcy

Senior member
Nov 20, 2005
260
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Hi,

This is difficult toa answer because the fans don't do what it says on the tin.


Even if they actually do move the quoted CFM in free air, as soon as you put them into a case they are working againt backpressure and total airflow collapses.


You actually need about 20CFM to keep the internal air temperature down to 5C over room temp in a well organized case. If you (say) doubled that airflow, the temp diffence would halve, reducing internal temperature by 2-3 C. Did someome say "diminishing returns"


So the question becomes: what nominal airflow should the fans have to shift 20CFM against the backpressure caused by the constrictions in the case. Tricky.


Much also depends on how your CPU and graphics card are cooled. If they pump hot air into the case you may need much greater airflow to keep the internal case temperature down than if they exhaust their hot air straight out of the case. The CPU heatsink is itself a massive obstacle to airflow - if you mount a 45 CFM fan on one and run it at 12v (ouch, the noise) I duobt it will shift even 20 CFM, and you probably need no more than 12 CFM throgh the heatsink to properly cool an X2 or C2D.



This is not a science (though it should be). It's not even an art, actually - more a hit and run exercise in most cases.


I seldom run any (12v) fan at over 5v to keep the noise level down.


I'd have thought with those cases and a good CPU cooler that blows air towards the case exhaust fan that an air intake fan - 120mm, nominal CFM around 40, but running at 5v, and the same fan rigged to run at 7 volts as the exhaust would be just fine.

However, I'd want to know the power output of the 8800GTS and the cooling arrangements for that before making a definate recommendation.


Peter


 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
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I would say to use the highest CFM fans you can find with the lowest rated sound.

I am replacing a 110+CFM intake fan that is way too noisy. So noisy in fact that I have it running at reduced speed to preserve my sanity(and I don't mind loud fans, so this should tell you how truly awful it is :laugh: ).

I've got a Thermaltake 120mm fan link on the way that is rated at 78CFM and 21dBA to replace it. I'll let you know how this works out once I get it. ;)
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Beachboy, just so you know thermaltake outright lies on their specs. There is no way to have a 120mm fan spin at 2000RPM with only 21dBA, let alone that noise level with that airflow. Their airflow rating seems pretty accurate, and the speed rating is right, but the noise level should be more in the mid-30's.

A friend of mine got the LED version of that fan (120mm thunderblade) and it definitely not 21dBA.
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
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Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
Beachboy, just so you know thermaltake outright lies on their specs. There is no way to have a 120mm fan spin at 2000RPM with only 21dBA, let alone that noise level with that airflow. Their airflow rating seems pretty accurate, and the speed rating is right, but the noise level should be more in the mid-30's.

A friend of mine got the LED version of that fan (120mm thunderblade) and it definitely not 21dBA.
Yeah, I figured the ratings were a lie but I am sure it is quiter than this beast of a fan I have in my case right now. :p

 

moosey

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2001
1,331
0
76
Thanks for the replies.

Right now I have an Antec 120mm fan that's rated 79CFM and 29dba but I wanted something with less noise. (I don't know how accurate those specs are).

I was looking at those Silenx fans because they seem to move a good bit of air (around 40-60cfm) and range from about 11-14 dba. I was also looking at some Papst, Scythe and those Acoustifans but the Silenx fans (at least according to the specs) seemed best. I was probably planning on using 2 of their 120mm 40cfm fans rated at 11dba...hoping that would be enough for cooling a case with a C2D (maybe with a Zalman hsf) and GF 8800GTS.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
SilenX fans ratings are crap as well. I've never owned one but there are many over at xtremesystems that got some and found out they aren't true to their specs either. Yate Loons are however and cheaper as well. Nexus fans are Yate loons that have been balanced and slowed down a little for even quieter running.
 

moosey

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2001
1,331
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76
I've heard Yate Loon fans are pretty good. How are they in comparison to fans like Scythe, Panaflo or Papst?
 

Eska

Banned
Nov 13, 2006
327
0
0
Originally posted by: Beachboy
I would say to use the highest CFM fans you can find with the lowest rated sound.

I am replacing a 110+CFM intake fan that is way too noisy. So noisy in fact that I have it running at reduced speed to preserve my sanity(and I don't mind loud fans, so this should tell you how truly awful it is :laugh: ).

I've got a Thermaltake 120mm fan link on the way that is rated at 78CFM and 21dBA to replace it. I'll let you know how this works out once I get it. ;)

stay away from thermaltake fans
 

Eska

Banned
Nov 13, 2006
327
0
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
personally after experimenting with different fans I found a fan that IMO is a very good fan!! I use the Coolrmaster fans -- 120mm!!

Good Luck!!

I bought mine at jab-tech!!
http://www.jab-tech.com/

yea i have 120mm that came with the class... they are REAL good.. i will probably get them next them when i have the need...
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
Originally posted by: Eska
Originally posted by: Beachboy
I would say to use the highest CFM fans you can find with the lowest rated sound.

I am replacing a 110+CFM intake fan that is way too noisy. So noisy in fact that I have it running at reduced speed to preserve my sanity(and I don't mind loud fans, so this should tell you how truly awful it is :laugh: ).

I've got a Thermaltake 120mm fan link on the way that is rated at 78CFM and 21dBA to replace it. I'll let you know how this works out once I get it. ;)

stay away from thermaltake fans
Is there any basis for that recommendation?


 

Boyo

Golden Member
Feb 23, 2006
1,406
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First off, in your pick for a case, I would highly recommend the Lian Li PC7B Plus II since it comes with 2x120mm front intake and rear exhaust. But I would replace the stock fans. I use 4x 120mm Antec Tri-Cool for my rig, but on the highest setting they do get loud. I have them set to medium or low. It's highest pushes about 79CFM.
 

Eska

Banned
Nov 13, 2006
327
0
0
Originally posted by: Beachboy
Originally posted by: Eska
Originally posted by: Beachboy
I would say to use the highest CFM fans you can find with the lowest rated sound.

I am replacing a 110+CFM intake fan that is way too noisy. So noisy in fact that I have it running at reduced speed to preserve my sanity(and I don't mind loud fans, so this should tell you how truly awful it is :laugh: ).

I've got a Thermaltake 120mm fan link on the way that is rated at 78CFM and 21dBA to replace it. I'll let you know how this works out once I get it. ;)

stay away from thermaltake fans
Is there any basis for that recommendation?

Just from personal experience.. they are noisy just as much as the infamous panaflo's... i'd take coolermaster fans over them any day...


A review from another forum..

I've tried three of the following fans:

Vantec Stealth 120mm 0.96W 53CFM 1500RPM 28dBA $21.95ea
CoolerMaster 120mm 0.60W 11.27CFM 720RPM 13dBA $15.55ea SilenX 120mm 1.2W 58CFM 1800RPM 14dBA $29.52ea

The SilenX 120mm fan seems too good to be true... 14dBA for 58CFM??? Well, it is too good to be true, it pushes the same air as CoolerMaster's 120mm fan, while making more noise. I'm not sure about these ratings, or whether CoolerMaster's fan really pushes "11.27 CFM", but I do know that the SilenX fan pushes the same air as CoolerMaster, while both of these pushes less air than the Vantec Stealth 120mm.

How much less air? Its not OVERLY significant, but if you need more air to be moved, then get the Vantec version. However, the Vantec Stealth 120mm fan creates SIGNIFICANTLY more noise.

In terms of quietest to the noisiest:

1) CoolerMaster 120mm
2) SilenX 120mm
3) Vantec Stealth 120mm

Compared to the other two models, the Vantec Stealth is anything but stealthy, it sounds like a supersonic jet. The CoolerMaster, I feel, comapring all three fans, is the BEST tradeoff for noise and air movement. The CoolerMaster makes ZERO noise. Whereas some reviews will say that the SilenX is "silent", CoolerMaster's 120mm fan makes the SilenX more like "a bit silent" as the comparison
reveals that the SilenX 120mm fan does in fact MAKE ENGINE noise, but nothing like the low grinding noise of the Vantec Stealth fan.

Personally, I think the best pick here is the CoolerMaster 120mm fan.

My logic here is that all three fans don't differ SIGNIFICANTLY from the air they push, but DO differ SIGNIFICANTLY in noise when moving from
the Vantec Stealth to the CoolerMaster (moving from extreme to extreme on "our" 3-point spectrum).

Therefore the CoolerMaster's 120mm fan is the winner's pick here. As its ULTRA Silent. All you hear is the wind blowing, literally (its 11cfm is really under-rating it as it really pushes 45cfm in reality). Of course, this is relative, as before I tested the CoolerMaster fan, the SilenX seemed "quiet". And after I tested the CoolerMaster fan, the SilenX seemed quite RELATIVELY loud.
 

MadScientist

Platinum Member
Jul 15, 2001
2,155
48
91
I have the Lian Li PC-7A case, the older silver version of the PC-7B Plus II. Is Lian Li is still putting ADDA fans in their PC-7 series cases? The 2 - 120 mm ADDA (model #AD1212LB-A73GL) fans that came with my case are ball bearing fans rated at 72 CFM, 34.4 db, 1800 RPM at 12V. If yours are ADDA fans you can check their specs here: ADDA Fan Specs
If you want quiet, get yourself a fan controller. I'm using the silver Sunbeam Rheobus. It also comes in black. Black Sunbeam Rheobus
 

moosey

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2001
1,331
0
76
Thanks for the replies...right now I'm thinking either a Papst or Nexus fan.
 

Conky

Lifer
May 9, 2001
10,709
0
0
Originally posted by: Beachboy
I would say to use the highest CFM fans you can find with the lowest rated sound.

I am replacing a 110+CFM intake fan that is way too noisy. So noisy in fact that I have it running at reduced speed to preserve my sanity(and I don't mind loud fans, so this should tell you how truly awful it is :laugh: ).

I've got a Thermaltake 120mm fan link on the way that is rated at 78CFM and 21dBA to replace it. I'll let you know how this works out once I get it. ;)
Well, the Thermaltake came and works quite well and is actually pretty quiet. :)

The other fan I got, a 92mm Y.S.Tech 66.3CFM that exhausts out the back, is much louder but not so loud that I am hating it... yet.

Together these new fans have my case running as cool as it's ever run.. right now, the case temp is 87F and the CPU temp is 89F. CPU got up as high as 95F during some extended gaming. :p

 

Cookie Monster

Diamond Member
May 7, 2005
5,161
32
86
Nexus fans are the most silent fans for a 12v fan. Theyre actually pretty good.

Pcy seems to know very well about this area of pc cooling. You should PM him for more advice on this.
 

pcy

Senior member
Nov 20, 2005
260
0
0
Hi,


That's very kind of you.... Cookie Monster.



The calculation on airflow required is actually quite simple. The total heat produced by the computer is 200W, say (NB - a reasonable figure for a gaming rig with a mobster gaming card).

The exhaust air temperture is, say, 10C above input (room temperature).


Then the CFM must be the volume of air whose thermal capacity multiplied by 10C equals 200W for one minute - because CFM is Cubic Feet per minute.

The equation you need is:

Watts x1.8 = CFM x TemperatureRise in Centegrade (Air Input to Air Exhaust)


Note that this remains true whatever case you use and whatever fans you use etc.


The next issue is to determine the internal case temperature. If you design/arrange your case so that all the hot components exhaust straight out of the case the internal temperature will be much lower than the exhaust temperature. It's the internal temperature you want to control - that's the purpose of the case fans - so the potential to improve the layout and reduce the CFM required is huge. [plug] My PaQ case uses this technique - http://paq.ltd.uk [/plug]

In an ordinary case about half of the air coming off the CPU actually exists from the case directly, and probably none of the air coming off the graphics card does. For a gaming rig, (but using only one graphics card) this means that there is about 160W going straight into the case interior, so you will need 30 CFM to keep the internal case temp down to 10C above room temperature.

And if you want to keep the temperature rise inside the case down to 5C you will need 60CFM. No way to do that quietly that I know of.


Now consider what happens if you suceed in exhausting all the CPU and graphics card hot air out of the case by means of suitable ducts. The internal heat generated will drop to about 50W and you'd need only 10CFM to maintain an internal temperature of 10C above room.

I'd prefer a 5C rise, in which case you need 20CFM. This is a good figure to aim for, as the airflow through the CPU cooler is typically 12- 15CFM and 20CFM means that some of the air is available to go out through the PSU.


The final question is how to shift this air as quietly as possible.


The key fact is this: big is beautiful. More is beautiful. Seriuosly, you can pay $30 for a fan or $2 for a fan, both 120mm. The noise levels between them for the same airflow will not vary by more than 20%.

But if you get two fans and volt them down to give the same airflow as one fan alone, the noise level will drop by 90%, typically. As a rough guide the dB produiced by any given fan changes linearly with the CFM. But dB is a log scale. Take a fan producing 30dB at 12V, then instead run two of them at 6V each to get the same total airflow (CFM proportional to fan speed or to voltage). Noise level is then 15dB each but 15dB + 15dB = 18dB, and 18DB compared to 30DB is a drop in noise by 90%, because dD is a log scale.

The same logic applies when replacing a smaller fan with a larger one, for the same CFM. The noise of the air flowing through a whole actually increases with the sixth power of the air velocity. Bigger fan, same CFM, lower velocity... go figure



So what you really want to do is figure out the airflow you need and then fit as many and as large fans as you can, and downvolt them to get the required airflow.




Peter