How long until we can officially be declared a socialism-oriented republic?

[destrekor]

First, to start out, I'll freely admit I am more of a Statist than a Federalist. I greatly support Federalism but call for at least what was originally proposed, a small Federal government overseeing the states.

What I don't get, is with the anti-communist movement that started around the 50s, and of which continued to linger for a long time, the public seemingly jumped on nationalized social programs in the 60s.

And here we are today, with the government thoroughly prepping to try and nationalize health care. WTH?
And while these things are far from the only issues at play, we are rapidly moving away from what the U.S. was supposed to be, and completely ignoring the framework on which this country held ideal. The Constitution called for a fine balance between Statism and Federalism, to appease the multitude of supporters on both sides during the time it was drafted.

Granted, nothing is an easy fix, and nothing is easy to change. Corporate programs can sometimes cause many issues when they are more focused on profits. I get that.

We aren't a pure free market society to the extent the term describes, as the country originally followed the laissez-faire philosophy, which was mostly free-market but implied minimal government intervention.
If only we followed that philosophy more, we'd know it covers alternatives to social programs like welfare.
And it greatly opposes such bullshit like government bailouts.

The things we are trying to fix, shouldn't be simply a year or two of debates with fixes implemented immediately. They need to be more thought out, more concrete. If anything, and I'd cautiously support this, the government should establish certain mandates for the public sector. Ensure insurance corporations follow the mandates, establish the mandates in such a way as to protect the citizens. That is what our government is supposed to do.

 

[TruePaige]

40 Million+ Americans that cannot afford health care is a crime. We need to provide for the well being of our nation.

I think welfare is around to prevent crime.

Deregulation always ends in problems, we need some rules to play by.

 

[Rainsford]

Socialism isn't an all or nothing idea, and I really wish every instance of the government trying to do something wasn't greeted with dire pronouncements of "OMG, socialism, WTFBBQ?!?!?" There is a fine balance between government and corporate power, between state and federal power, and arguing for one or the other using vague but loaded terms like socialism or fascism is silly.

The real problem is that it's obvious that the free market can be just as moronic and just as damaging as government control. True, we have better health care than a lot of socialized health care countries...but only if you count the people who can afford it. If you took Americans as a whole and compared them to socialized health care systems, we get terrible average care, because while *I* get great health care, a lot of people don't get any at all. And the hands-off attitude towards corporate book keeping, stock trading and the economic situation as a whole have dealt a huge body blow to our national economy...Soviet central planners could hardly have fucked things up any more.

Of course absolute socialism is bad, but trying to find a good balance isn't "socialism", any more than small, incremental moves towards increased capitalism is a total "laissez-faire" approach. No absolutist philosophy is going to turn out as well as intelligently judging the situation and finding a good balance between all the options. Real life isn't an economics textbook.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: TruePaige
40 Million+ Americans that cannot afford health care is a crime. We need to provide for the well being of our nation.

I think welfare is around to prevent crime.

Deregulation always ends in problems, we need some rules to play by.

You do know are significant chunk of those 40M are illegal immigrants and anotehr big chunk is young people who do not think they need it.

 

[retrospooty]

If the question is when will we officially be labeled "socialist" the answer is never. If the question is when will we be implementing some socialistic programs and become a combo capitolist/socialist country like some European nations, the answer is now. its happening now, and its a good thing. National heathcare can benefit us all if done right. The current privatized system has been hijacked by the rich. the drug companies own us all and it HAS to end.

The USA as we know it isnt over - we will be fine, and we will prosper as America ALWAYS does. If certain programs dont work, they will be changed and/or eliminated. America is an ever evolving social experiment that always comes out on top.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: TruePaige
40 Million+ Americans that cannot afford health care is a crime. We need to provide for the well being of our nation.

I think welfare is around to prevent crime.

Deregulation always ends in problems, we need some rules to play by.

You do know are significant chunk of those 40M are illegal immigrants and anotehr big chunk is young people who do not think they need it.

And a much larger chunk is legal residents who want health care but can't get it. Even if that group isn't all 40 million (really more like 45 million) of people without insurance, it's probably large enough to warrant our attention, don't you think?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: TruePaige
40 Million+ Americans that cannot afford health care is a crime. We need to provide for the well being of our nation.

I think welfare is around to prevent crime.

Deregulation always ends in problems, we need some rules to play by.

You do know are significant chunk of those 40M are illegal immigrants and anotehr big chunk is young people who do not think they need it.

And a much larger chunk is legal residents who want health care but can't get it. Even if that group isn't all 40 million (really more like 45 million) of people without insurance, it's probably large enough to warrant our attention, don't you think?

Most of those 40M are illegals and young people
Those that are chronically without insurance is around 10M. I have posted this study several times...

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: TruePaige
40 Million+ Americans that cannot afford health care is a crime. We need to provide for the well being of our nation.

I think welfare is around to prevent crime.

Deregulation always ends in problems, we need some rules to play by.

You do know are significant chunk of those 40M are illegal immigrants and anotehr big chunk is young people who do not think they need it.

And you know that regardless of the reasons behind it, we end up all paying for them anyway. As I've said many times, unless we're prepared as a society to turn sick people away from hospitals and let them die in the street, we already have universal health care.

It's just the worst possible form where you won't spend $50 for a checkup, but you'll spend $500,000 to cure the cancer that the checkup would have caught.

 

[Shuxclams]

"How long until we can officially be declared a socialism-oriented republic?"

Maybe when we become a socialist-oriented country?

SHUX

 

[n yusef]

As someone who grew up without health care, I can tell you it was not because my parent's didn't want it or didn't think we needed it. charrison, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[techs]

Geez, the op must just watch FoxNews for his edumakashion.
Since the founding of our country we have practised "socialist" type democracy.
The very idea of tariffs, which we immediately enacted are socialist.
Or the idea of "government" money is socialism.
In the 1800's we effectively put in place our most powerful socialist idea, that of the "corporation" with special protections greater than that of a citizen, because we deemed it for the "socialist" good.
Our country was not founded on "capitalism". You can't find the word in our Constitution.

As to your idea that moving to a single payer or universally required health care system will cross some imaginary, ill conceived idea in YOUR head, is just that. Ill conceived.

You may also be living in some self deluded fairy tale world where late 1700 America should be exactly the model for early 21st century America.
Wow. Talk about not taking your head out of your *ss.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: destrekor
Topic: How long until we can officially be declared a socialism-oriented republic?

A rose by any other name.....
You're seriously barking up the wrong tree when looking towards politically negative descriptors being used as a sign for something important.

Forget their names, think of their actions.

Is our government actively redistributing wealth as if its their sacred god given duty? Yes, just as heralded in the communist manifesto written by Karl Marx. We're doing the same thing Soviet Russia did, we merely have a different take on how to do it. Whether this centralized power corrupts our leaders and ends our democracy remains to be seen.

It is difficult for a Constitution or Bill of Rights to protect the people from their government when the people are owned by their government.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: n yusef
As someone who grew up without health care, I can tell you it was not because my parent's didn't want it or didn't think we needed it. charrison, you don't know what you're talking about.

Try reading what I actually said.

THere are groups of young people that opt to not get insurance because they dont think they need or they think it is bad deal for someone who is healthy. And yes I did state there are aobut 10M people that are chronically uninsured and no doubt your family feel into that category.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: n yusef
As someone who grew up without health care, I can tell you it was not because my parent's didn't want it or didn't think we needed it. charrison, you don't know what you're talking about.

Try reading what I actually said.

THere are groups of young people that opt to not get insurance because they dont think they need or they think it is bad deal for someone who is healthy. And yes I did state there are aobut 10M people that are chronically uninsured and no doubt your family feel into that category.

Many, many people are forced to suffer and it is just wrong.

Also, the other ~30 million or so are still, as often said, getting 100,000 dollar repairs for what could of been caught for a meager 50 dollar checkup.

 

[n yusef]

What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

 

[Vic]

/facepalm

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Vic
/facepalm

:laugh:

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: n yusef
What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

THe point is not confuse those that cant afford and want it, with those that opt not to get insurance or are not even citizens. THe point is too at least use honest numbers when discussing who is uninsured.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: n yusef
What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

I'm fine with 10million uninsured. There are a lot of stupid people in this world. There are also a lot of lazy people. There are a lot of freeloaders. Its not fucking hard to get insurance. There are a TON of jobs that offer relatively affordable insurance, all you have to do is be responsible and hard working. This is harsh, I know, but there are ALWAYS going to be people who can't hack it in this world. Sucks for them, only the strong survive. I don't want to carry the freeloaders. I know, harsh, but I'm sick of it.


Teach a man to fish, ya know?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: n yusef
What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

I'm fine with 10million uninsured. There are a lot of stupid people in this world. There are also a lot of lazy people. There are a lot of freeloaders. Its not fucking hard to get insurance. There are a TON of jobs that offer relatively affordable insurance, all you have to do is be responsible and hard working. This is harsh, I know, but there are ALWAYS going to be people who can't hack it in this world. Sucks for them, only the strong survive. I don't want to carry the freeloaders. I know, harsh, but I'm sick of it.


Teach a man to fish, ya know?

I don't understand this argument, it's pointless. Once again, if you aren't willing to let people rot in the street, you will pay for their medical care one way or the other. Right now we're doing it in the most expensive possible way, rational people want to bring those costs down through universal insurance.

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: n yusef
What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

I'm fine with 10million uninsured. There are a lot of stupid people in this world. There are also a lot of lazy people. There are a lot of freeloaders. Its not fucking hard to get insurance. There are a TON of jobs that offer relatively affordable insurance, all you have to do is be responsible and hard working. This is harsh, I know, but there are ALWAYS going to be people who can't hack it in this world. Sucks for them, only the strong survive. I don't want to carry the freeloaders. I know, harsh, but I'm sick of it.


Teach a man to fish, ya know?

Just a few reasons that it isn't just the "lazy freeloaders" that don't have insurance.

1) A lot of companies these days do everything they can to keep from having to give you benefits (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Small businesses that have small margins)

2) Some people are precluded from their companies group plans because of their pre-existing conditions.

3) If you try to get insurance on your own it's next to impossible to afford for the average person.

4) It's a lot more expensive to treat a condition in emergency room states than in small, treatable states.


In fact a lot of people that have illnesses that make it hard for them to get insurance just have to wait for it to get worse, get on disability, and get free health care. You'd be forcing them to "freeload" just to get care.

Even if you think that since you make more money and have perhaps a better job you are more deserving of health care for some reason, you would actually have to pay less if people were treated instead of driving up costs when they have horrible emergencies because they couldn't get treatment.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: n yusef
What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

I'm fine with 10million uninsured. There are a lot of stupid people in this world. There are also a lot of lazy people. There are a lot of freeloaders. Its not fucking hard to get insurance. There are a TON of jobs that offer relatively affordable insurance, all you have to do is be responsible and hard working. This is harsh, I know, but there are ALWAYS going to be people who can't hack it in this world. Sucks for them, only the strong survive. I don't want to carry the freeloaders. I know, harsh, but I'm sick of it.


Teach a man to fish, ya know?

So the kids of the working poor are "freeloaders," but the kids of those with class privilege are "strong," "responsible," and "hard-working?"

You were lucky enough to be born with class privilege, and you are stupid enough to think that it makes you superior to those less fortunate.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Shuxclams
"How long until we can officially be declared a socialism-oriented republic?"

Maybe when we become a socialist-oriented country?

SHUX

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: n yusef
What's your point when you argued about the number of uninsured? Would 40 million uninsured be a problem, but 10 million uninsured be fine? I don't have any studies on hand, and frankly, I don't see why the exact number of uninsured is important. One person uninsured is one too many.

I'm fine with 10million uninsured. There are a lot of stupid people in this world. There are also a lot of lazy people. There are a lot of freeloaders. Its not fucking hard to get insurance. There are a TON of jobs that offer relatively affordable insurance, all you have to do is be responsible and hard working. This is harsh, I know, but there are ALWAYS going to be people who can't hack it in this world. Sucks for them, only the strong survive. I don't want to carry the freeloaders. I know, harsh, but I'm sick of it.


Teach a man to fish, ya know?

So the kids of the working poor are "freeloaders," but the kids of those with class privilege are "strong," "responsible," and "hard-working?"

You were lucky enough to be born with class privilege, and you are stupid enough to think that it makes you superior to those less fortunate.

I remember the line about George Bush jr.
"He was born standing on third base, and he thinks he hit a triple"

 

[Muse]

Topic Title: How long until we can officially be declared a socialism-oriented republic?
Topic Summary: the days are numbered...

How long before you are officially labeled a troll. :roll: