How long until Chavez?s Venezuela has a melt down?

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Populism run amok.
Read the article and link below and look at the mess Chavez has managed to make of Venezuela.

How can a country with one of the largest oil reserves in the world fall apart so fast?

Inflation is running at 18%, if you go to the store you can?t find basic meat or beans, there is a shortage and rationing of sugar.

What we have here is a CLASSIC example of socialism ruining an economy. And now they are going to start jailing people who violate the price controls. History has shown time and time again that price controls lead to disaster, EVERY TIME.
He is also talking of nationalizing grocery stores.

Every economic sign coming out of Venezuela points to pending economic meltdown.
The only question seems to be when will it happen?
If it was not for their oil the country would already be in a meltdown, that is the only thing saving them.
New Currency to be introduced
Anti-inflation plan may backfire
Price regulations and other controls, including a crackdown on businesses buying currencies outside official government channels, have helped to make food production unprofitable, leading to a decline in supply and spurring inflation
Price controls at work...
NY Times piece
CARACAS, Venezuela, Feb. 16 ? Faced with an accelerating inflation rate and shortages of basic foods like beef, chicken and milk, President Hugo Chávez has threatened to jail grocery store owners and nationalize their businesses if they violate the country?s expanding price controls.
Food producers and economists say the measures announced late Thursday night, which include removing three zeroes from the denomination of Venezuela?s currency, are likely to backfire and generate even more acute shortages and higher prices for consumers. Inflation climbed to an annual rate of 18.4 percent a year in January, the highest in Latin America and far above the official target of 10 to 12 percent.
Mr. Chávez, whose leftist populism remains highly popular among Venezuela?s poor and working classes, seemed unfazed by criticism of his policies. Appearing live on national television, he called for the creation of ?committees of social control,? essentially groups of his political supporters whose purpose would be to report on farmers, ranchers, supermarket owners and street vendors who circumvent the state?s effort to control food prices.
?It is surreal that we?ve arrived at a point where we are in danger of squandering a major oil boom,? said José Guerra, a former chief of economic research at Venezuela?s central bank, who left Mr. Chavez?s government in 2004. ?If the government insists on sticking to policies that are clearly failing, we may be headed down the road of Zimbabwe.?
For now, Venezuela remains far from any nightmarish economic meltdown. The country, which has the largest conventional oil reserves outside the Middle East, is still enjoying a revenue windfall from historically high oil prices, resulting in a surge in consumer spending and lavish government financing for an array of social welfare and infrastructure programs. Dollar reserves at the central bank total more than $35 billion.
The economy grew by more than 10 percent last year, helping Mr. Chávez glide to a re-election victory in December with 63 percent of the vote. Yet economists who have worked with Mr. Chávez?s government say that soaring public spending is overheating Venezuela?s economy, generating imbalances in the distribution of products from sugar to basic construction materials like wallboard.
Public spending grew last year by more than 50 percent and has more than doubled since the start of 2004, as Mr. Chávez has channeled oil revenues into social programs and projects like bridges, highways, trains, subways, museums and, in a departure for a country where baseball reigns supreme, soccer stadiums.
In an indicator of concern with Mr. Chávez?s economic policies, which included nationalizing companies in the telephone and electricity industries, foreign direct investment was negative in the first nine months of 2006. The last year Venezuela had a net investment outflow was in 1986.
Shortages of basic foods have been sporadic since the government strengthened price controls in 2003 after a debilitating strike by oil workers. But in recent weeks, the scarcity of items like meat and chicken has led to a panicked reaction by federal authorities as they try to understand how such shortages could develop in a seemingly flourishing economy.
Entering a supermarket here is a bizarre experience. Shelves are fully stocked with Scotch whiskey, Argentine wines and imported cheeses like brie and Camembert, but basic staples like black beans and desirable cuts of beef like sirloin are often absent. Customers, even those in the government?s own Mercal chain of subsidized grocery stores, are left with choices like pork neck bones, rabbit and unusual cuts of lamb.
With shoppers limited to just two large packages of sugar, a black market in sugar has developed among street vendors in parts of Caracas. ?This country is going to turn into Cuba, or Chávez will have to give in,? said Cándida de Gómez, 54, a shopper at a private supermarket in Los Palos Grandes, a district in the capital.
José Vielma Mora, the chief of Seniat, the government?s tax agency, oversaw a raid this month on a warehouse here where officials seized about 165 tons of sugar. Mr. Vielma said the raid exposed hoarding by vendors who were unwilling to sell the sugar at official prices. He and other officials in Mr. Chávez?s government have repeatedly blamed the shortages on producers, intermediaries and grocers.
Those in the food industry argue that the price controls prevented them from making a profit after inflation rose and the value of Venezuela?s currency plunged in black market trading in recent weeks. The bolívar, the country?s currency, fell more than 30 percent to about 4,400 to the dollar in unofficial trading following Mr. Chávez?s nationalization of Venezuela?s main telephone company, CANTV, and its largest electric utility, Electricidad de Caracas.
Fears that more private companies could be nationalized have put further pressure on the currency as rich Venezuelans try to take money out of the country. Concern over capital flight has made the government jittery, with vague threats issued to newspapers that publish unofficial currency rates (officially the bolívar is quoted at about 2,150 to the dollar).
Regardless of efforts to stop illicit currency trading, the weaker bolívar has made imported food, fertilizers and agricultural equipment more expensive. Venezuela, despite boasting some of South America?s most fertile farmland, still imports more than half its food, largely from Argentina, Brazil, Colombia and the United States.
Supermarket owners expressed relief when the government this week cut value-added taxes on retail food sales and raised the prices on more than 100 staples in an effort to alleviate the shortages. The announcement included an average 32 percent increase in beef prices and a 45 percent increase in chicken prices.
Following Mr. Chávez?s nationalization threat, supermarket owners were cautious in their public statements. ?As long as we are complying with the regulations, I don?t believe there will be any type of reprisal,? said Luis Rodríguez, executive director of the National Supermarket Association.
But many were clearly torn, afraid that their stores could be seized if they complained, but at a loss as to how to continue operating. ?If I don?t sell at the regulated price they?ll fine me, and if I don?t sell meat I?ll be out of business,? said a butcher shop owner here.
During his television broadcast, Mr. Chávez said his measures would be laid out in a decree, a power that his rubber-stamp legislature just bestowed upon him. He acknowledged that removing taxes on food sales would deprive the government of more than $3 billion in revenues, higher than the military budget, but he said tax increases on luxuries like beach homes and yachts would make up for part of the shortfall.
Mr. Chávez also said he would raise subsidies for state-owned grocery stores. Economists say such subsidies, together with hefty loans to farmers, have allowed the price controls to function relatively well until recent weeks.
But recent expropriations of farms and ranches, part of Mr. Chávez?s effort to empower state-financed cooperatives, have also weighed on domestic food production as the new managers retool operations. So has the flood of petrodollars into the economy, easing food imports and making some domestic producers uncompetitive, an affliction common to oil economies.
?There seems to be a basic misunderstanding in Chávez?s government of what is driving scarcity and inflation,? said Francisco Rodríguez, a former chief economist at Venezuela?s National Assembly who teaches at Wesleyan University.
?There are competent people in the government who know that Chávez needs to lower spending if he wants to defeat these problems,? Mr. Rodríguez said. ?But there are few people in positions of power who are willing to risk telling him what he needs to hear.?
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,517
586
126
Sounds like instead of spending money on soccer stadiums he should be buying food.

 

Gigantopithecus

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2004
7,664
0
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I think the fact that we even pay attention to what's happening to this banana republic under this tinpot dictator only underscores the importance of developing viable alternatives to oil. Kinda wish we still had the $300,000,000,000 we've pissed down the snake hole known as Iraq to work on that...
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Populism run amok.
Read the article and link below and look at the mess Chavez has managed to make of Venezuela.

How can a country with one of the largest oil reserves in the world fall apart so fast?

Inflation is running at 18%, if you go to the store you can?t find basic meat or beans, there is a shortage and rationing of sugar.

What we have here is a CLASSIC example of socialism ruining an economy. And now they are going to start jailing people who violate the price controls. History has shown time and time again that price controls lead to disaster, EVERY TIME.
He is also talking of nationalizing grocery stores.

Every economic sign coming out of Venezuela points to pending economic meltdown.
The only question seems to be when will it happen?
If it was not for their oil the country would already be in a meltdown, that is the only thing saving them.

Why do you care so much???
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
It's hard to say how long. It is similar to Cuba, in my opinion. In Cuba, you had the Soviets funneling large sums of money each year to help keep the country afloat. Venezuela has something similar -- one of the worlds largest supplies of oil.
 

Kntx

Platinum Member
Dec 11, 2000
2,270
0
71
It's not failure of socialism. It's a failure of Chavez and a political system. The guy is a clown and is not working in the best interests of the people.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Chavez can thank the U.S. policies that are keeping the price of oil high and his government afloat.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Kntx
It's not failure of socialism. It's a failure of Chavez and a political system. The guy is a clown and is not working in the best interests of the people.

These same issues happend in ther Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc countries, Cuba, and N. Korea.

It is another example of failure of the system.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Here we go again with profclown writing about Venezula and how its going to melt down blah blah blah... Why do you care so much about them? Mind your own business.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Here we go again with profclown writing about Venezula and how its going to melt down blah blah blah... Why do you care so much about them? Mind your own business.

Yeah, who are Americans to observe and discuss world events!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.

No one would argue that taxes don't have an upper limit. But where did Sweden's taxes rates come down to compared to the US? Far higher, far above 'acceptable' to the right.

The right's economic theory would predict disaster that hasn't happened.

Just as they did with Clinton's tax increase where they all said the US would plummet into terrible debt and low productivity - and were wrong as the economy moved far higher and the growing deficits of the 12 years of republican rule were not only stopped from increasing but eliminated. Republican economic theory exists for one purpose: to fool the ill-informed into supporting policies that enrich the rich.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.

No one would argue that taxes don't have an upper limit. But where did Sweden's taxes rates come down to compared to the US? Far higher, far above 'acceptable' to the right.

The right's economic theory would predict disaster that hasn't happened.

Just as they did with Clinton's tax increase where they all said the US would plummet into terrible debt and low productivity - and were wrong as the economy moved far higher and the growing deficits of the 12 years of republican rule were not only stopped from increasing but eliminated. Republican economic theory exists for one purpose: to fool the ill-informed into supporting policies that enrich the rich.



And conversely low taxes are not killing this country either. The deficit is shrinking, debt to gdp is stable and the economy continues to do well.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
126
If Chavez is a good leader he'll change course, if not, hopefully the Venezuelan People give him the pink slip come next Election.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
If Chavez is a good leader he'll change course, if not, hopefully the Venezuelan People give him the pink slip come next Election.

I looks like Chavez is going to take the Zimbabwe path and that is not going to be good for anyone.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,709
6,266
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: sandorski
If Chavez is a good leader he'll change course, if not, hopefully the Venezuelan People give him the pink slip come next Election.

I looks like Chavez is going to take the Zimbabwe path and that is not going to be good for anyone.

Not sure what that path is, but time will tell what he does.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: sandorski
If Chavez is a good leader he'll change course, if not, hopefully the Venezuelan People give him the pink slip come next Election.

I looks like Chavez is going to take the Zimbabwe path and that is not going to be good for anyone.

Not sure what that path is, but time will tell what he does.

Read up on what has happened in zimbabwe the past several years...
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.
Yes, I agree. In fact many European nations did what Sweden did, raise taxes to a point it was counter-productive. However, like Sweden, most of them have lowered the tax rates a bit and found it works well. Turns out people work just as hard to get rich if they get to keep 9 million out of 10 million earned or if they get to keep just 5 million.

 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
3,875
0
76
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Here we go again with profclown writing about Venezula and how its going to melt down blah blah blah... Why do you care so much about them? Mind your own business.

Yeah, who are Americans to observe and discuss world events!

This is not a world event. Its propaganda by the right because he nationalized oil.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Kntx
It's not failure of socialism. It's a failure of Chavez and a political system. The guy is a clown and is not working in the best interests of the people.

These same issues happend in ther Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc countries, Cuba, and N. Korea.

It is another example of failure of the system.

Sort of - it's a reminder tha state-run economies tend not to have someone at the head whose interest is actually the well-being of the people.

Issues of paternalism and liberty aside (and they are certainly significant), free-markets solve problems better than un-free ones.

Sadly, free-markets produce 'winners and losers' and become un-free over time.

It's one of those problems with no solution, and certainly not one with capitalism, and is the reason that a mixed-bag of policies and results is always going to be the norm for modern societies.

There's no magic bullet. Not markets, not wealth-redistribution, not communism, not anything else. There will always be little social experiments like Venezuela and Cuba (which, by the way, is remarkably successful given America's extensive efforts to force Cuba into failure, but still doomed in the long run).

There will always be swings between more freedom of enterprise (promoting growth and efficiency) and less (busting harmful monopolies). As long as I still get paid for the work I do (on the one hand) and never have to shop at the company store (on the other) I think things will be alright.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.
Yes, I agree. In fact many European nations did what Sweden did, raise taxes to a point it was counter-productive. However, like Sweden, most of them have lowered the tax rates a bit and found it works well. Turns out people work just as hard to get rich if they get to keep 9 million out of 10 million earned or if they get to keep just 5 million.
I would disagree on that as most of EU is behind the US when it comes to economic growth.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.
Yes, I agree. In fact many European nations did what Sweden did, raise taxes to a point it was counter-productive. However, like Sweden, most of them have lowered the tax rates a bit and found it works well. Turns out people work just as hard to get rich if they get to keep 9 million out of 10 million earned or if they get to keep just 5 million.
I would disagree on that as most of EU is behind the US when it comes to economic growth.

And do you have any evidence tying their lack of growth to taxes?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Craig234
How long until the catastrophic economic problems occur because of socialism in Sweden?

I predict they will start to lose control of their spending, where the wealthy will more and more monopolize the government's spending of the public money, and they'll be unable to curtail it resulting in huge debt until the currency collapses, while they're focred to slash services for the poor and middle classes.

Their society will decline as they lose their ability to make anything and businesses are moved to other nations. Wealth will become far more concentrated.

Oh, wait, that's us since Reagan. Sweden's socialism is doing a lot better.

Actually Sweden has already had this happen. AT one point they raised so taxes so high that the investor class left the country. They did not recover till they lowered taxes to a more reasonable level.
Yes, I agree. In fact many European nations did what Sweden did, raise taxes to a point it was counter-productive. However, like Sweden, most of them have lowered the tax rates a bit and found it works well. Turns out people work just as hard to get rich if they get to keep 9 million out of 10 million earned or if they get to keep just 5 million.
I would disagree on that as most of EU is behind the US when it comes to economic growth.

And do you have any evidence tying their lack of growth to taxes?

Taxes do create drag on economic growth. The US had few regulations and lower taxes and more often than not outperforms the EU.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
If Chavez is a good leader he'll change course, if not, hopefully the Venezuelan People give him the pink slip come next Election.
Do you not follow the news? Chavez is on a path to becoming President for life.
He can now rule by decree. His word is law.

You think he is going to just walk away from his power?