Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 36
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Depends on what you're looking for. For OEM replacement I tend to like Sachs-Boge or KYB, but for performance either Bilstein or Koni (though these tend to cost more).
ZV
Koni have alot of specials, get adjustable, easy to play with to get exactly the ride you want, ,
And I wonder if hard or soft shocks would be best for long time hyway driving often in snow, ?.
And I wonder if hard or soft shocks would be best for long time hyway driving often in snow, ?.
Jimzz
Diamond Member
- Oct 23, 2012
- 4,399
- 190
- 106
Ha that's a understatement. :biggrin:
I say that as someone who bought 4 Bilstein for my 73 chevy.
But yea the KYB gas-a-just are a good bang for the buck for improved handling while being a good price.
Jimzz
Diamond Member
- Oct 23, 2012
- 4,399
- 190
- 106
They can but its not to common. I have seen springs on 40 year old cars still working fine.
My old truck though the previous owner over loaded it and wore them out. But that is more rare and also not using it properly.
Unless the car is sagging or the spring is physically broken then I would not replace them.
T2urtle
Diamond Member
- Oct 18, 2004
- 3,432
- 3
- 81
Some cars rust out. Like rear springs on e36 BMWs. I have heard and send one rear set broken. But 150k and Midwest salt could help in a 15 year old car.
Midwayman
Diamond Member
- Jan 28, 2000
- 5,723
- 325
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The rubber parts in the top hats sometimes go bad as well. Dry rot, tearing, etc. If I'm disassembling a shock, I'm probably getting new rubber anyways as its not expensive most of the time and taking everything apart is such a PITA. Kinda like doing your water pump and tensioners when you do your timing belt
If your car has over 100K miles on it, I'd just replace the entire shock/strut assembly vs. just doing the shocks or struts themselves. The benefit of doing the entire assembly is a much easier installation (no need to compress springs), and you get all new coil springs, top hats, and mounts. For my Honda, buying the entire shock absorber assembly (shock, coil spring, mounts, all fully assembled and ready to go) only cost about $40 more than buying the shock absorber alone (comparing prices of OEM Honda parts for both items).
As for how long shocks and struts can last, you can probably go over 150K miles on the originals if your driving is mostly highway and the car was driven lightly. For a car driven in a city that has many potholes, the lifespan would probably be a good amount less. In my case a pothole caused my right front shock to leak badly and fail the bounce test, so they had to be replaced.
It was worth it for me. The decision was pretty easy since the Honda shocks were $110 and the entire Honda shock assembly was about $150. $40 more to get all new springs, rubber parts, and top hats, plus a much easier installation? I'd pay that slight premium any day of the week.
Showa is another good OEM brand. They're known more for their motorcycle parts, but they actually produce many of the automotive shocks/struts for Hondas.
As for how long shocks and struts can last, you can probably go over 150K miles on the originals if your driving is mostly highway and the car was driven lightly. For a car driven in a city that has many potholes, the lifespan would probably be a good amount less. In my case a pothole caused my right front shock to leak badly and fail the bounce test, so they had to be replaced.
It was worth it for me. The decision was pretty easy since the Honda shocks were $110 and the entire Honda shock assembly was about $150. $40 more to get all new springs, rubber parts, and top hats, plus a much easier installation? I'd pay that slight premium any day of the week.
Showa is another good OEM brand. They're known more for their motorcycle parts, but they actually produce many of the automotive shocks/struts for Hondas.
Last edited:
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 36
- 91
Fair. I'm not sure I'd call it "much" easier, but at a 36% price premium it's not horrible and I can see someone preferring it.
I can't believe I forgot about Showa. I guess I still pigeon-hole them as being for motorcycles and not cars. If someone had asked about shocks for a bike, Showa would have been one of the first brands I mentioned.
ZV
found in another forum
TL;DR: Always buy the OEM replacement part. No matter the original brand supplier.*
I have been a design engineer, process engineer and project manager for a company that makes shocks/struts. I have visited and worked in several manufacturing facilities around the globe. I also worked for an OEM as a ride and handling engineer tuning various components including shocks/struts (and tires, steering, bushings, engine mounts, even BIW structures). Did a little racing in my day, too. What I'm trying to say is, if there is anything in the world I am qualified to comment on... it's this.
If you ever find yourself wanting/needing to replace the shocks or struts on your vehicle...buy whatever brand was on the car originally. In fact, buy the actual part number that was on the vehicle originally.
OEM vehicles are tuned over many months to arrive at the ride you experience. Seriously, tuning shocks for a specific vehicle combination can take many months. Each combination will get a different tune. So, a v6 will not have the same valve code as a v8, which will have a different code for awd vs 2wd, wheelbase, etc. Anything that alters the mass and inertia significantly will get a new damper tuning code. BMW is one of the best at delivering great ride and handling, but all OEM's spend a lot of time and money on EVERY vehicle optimizing several variables. OEMs also durability test the whole vehicle, so you know the original part was made to last on your vehicle.
Shock/strut valving is one of the most crucial elements of ride. ONLY the original part from the original supplier will deliver the intended (and best) ride. These suppliers are required to provide service parts for a minimum of 10 years after production ENDS so they will be available to discriminating customers like you.
Aftermarket parts on the other hand, no matter who is providing them, may have been tuned over a matter of hours if at all. Sometimes they dyno the original and target to be within some %(10-20) of the original for the force-velocity curve. Sometimes they will do a few rides with different valve combinations, but nothing remotely close to what the OEM will spend tuning. Speaking from experience, even if the force-velocity is =, the ride and handling will be vastly different if the valving is built differently. (and all the suppliers have different valving strategies) Bottom line; the original parts are tuned to fit your vehicle, I recommend you replace with the exact part number.
Now, on to quality. Again, it's best to get the OEM part replacement. The quality standards for OEMs are extremely rigid, with severe penalties for premature wear, leakage, breakage, etc. Warranty costs are passed on to suppliers and it is very expensive. Supplier do not and cannot risk having warranty problems with the OEM customers. ALL parts for OEM production are PV (production validation) tested for durability and a litany of part specific and manufacturer specific tests including corrosion and of course fitment and things you would never dream of. Bottom line; the original parts are proven to be durable on your vehicle, I recommend you replace with the exact part number.
After market shocks are an absolute gamble when it comes to quality and durability. The requirements are set by the aftermarket company, not by the vehicle manufacturers. The designs are a best guess as to what is required. The approach is typically to over engineer the structure so much that there is little to worry about from a breakage point of view. The other requirements like bushing rate, corrosion, and valve tuning is really a best guess. They do enough of them, they can get close, but it's no where near the OEM level of detail. On top of that, the consequences for getting it wrong are not so bad. Worst case they give you a replacement part and they still might make a profit off the original sale. Markups on aftermarket are juicy.
Now, some of you are saying to yourself, "Well, I had a ____ and the original ____ didn't last at all, they were junk! This girl doesn't know her ___ from a ____ !" Even with the rigid quality and design standards, some parts fail. OEMs obviously want perfect quality, but that is not here yet. Typical failure rates for OE parts vary depending on the component but a rate of 200 PPM (parts per million failed or 0.02%) is probably considered bad [it's more likely 50 ppm but let's do worst case]. That's two in ten thousand. If you consider 4/car that's one person in every 2500 might get a failure worst case. You were a statistic, sorry about your luck, buy a lottery ticket and stfu. Aftermarket rates are harder to judge, but my educated guess is closer to 10,000 PPM (about 1%). That's one in one hundred, at four per car, then every 25th person will probably have a failure. That's why everyone knows someone that has a story.
The components used in aftermarket vs OEM and even other "premium" brands from the same company are often the same. They are so cheap it usually doesn't pay to design and tool up different versions for the replacement aftermarket. They might use different and cheaper suppliers, that don't pay as much attention to quality and thus it gets passed on through the process. The quality of aftermarket assemblies suffer due to more lax process and supplier standards, less design input, and really lower consequences of failure.
This lesson brought to you by... Beer! I'll go have one, now.
*Unless you are racing, then buy racing shocks; not shocks that are "racy".
TL;DR: Always buy the OEM replacement part. No matter the original brand supplier.*
I have been a design engineer, process engineer and project manager for a company that makes shocks/struts. I have visited and worked in several manufacturing facilities around the globe. I also worked for an OEM as a ride and handling engineer tuning various components including shocks/struts (and tires, steering, bushings, engine mounts, even BIW structures). Did a little racing in my day, too. What I'm trying to say is, if there is anything in the world I am qualified to comment on... it's this.
If you ever find yourself wanting/needing to replace the shocks or struts on your vehicle...buy whatever brand was on the car originally. In fact, buy the actual part number that was on the vehicle originally.
OEM vehicles are tuned over many months to arrive at the ride you experience. Seriously, tuning shocks for a specific vehicle combination can take many months. Each combination will get a different tune. So, a v6 will not have the same valve code as a v8, which will have a different code for awd vs 2wd, wheelbase, etc. Anything that alters the mass and inertia significantly will get a new damper tuning code. BMW is one of the best at delivering great ride and handling, but all OEM's spend a lot of time and money on EVERY vehicle optimizing several variables. OEMs also durability test the whole vehicle, so you know the original part was made to last on your vehicle.
Shock/strut valving is one of the most crucial elements of ride. ONLY the original part from the original supplier will deliver the intended (and best) ride. These suppliers are required to provide service parts for a minimum of 10 years after production ENDS so they will be available to discriminating customers like you.
Aftermarket parts on the other hand, no matter who is providing them, may have been tuned over a matter of hours if at all. Sometimes they dyno the original and target to be within some %(10-20) of the original for the force-velocity curve. Sometimes they will do a few rides with different valve combinations, but nothing remotely close to what the OEM will spend tuning. Speaking from experience, even if the force-velocity is =, the ride and handling will be vastly different if the valving is built differently. (and all the suppliers have different valving strategies) Bottom line; the original parts are tuned to fit your vehicle, I recommend you replace with the exact part number.
Now, on to quality. Again, it's best to get the OEM part replacement. The quality standards for OEMs are extremely rigid, with severe penalties for premature wear, leakage, breakage, etc. Warranty costs are passed on to suppliers and it is very expensive. Supplier do not and cannot risk having warranty problems with the OEM customers. ALL parts for OEM production are PV (production validation) tested for durability and a litany of part specific and manufacturer specific tests including corrosion and of course fitment and things you would never dream of. Bottom line; the original parts are proven to be durable on your vehicle, I recommend you replace with the exact part number.
After market shocks are an absolute gamble when it comes to quality and durability. The requirements are set by the aftermarket company, not by the vehicle manufacturers. The designs are a best guess as to what is required. The approach is typically to over engineer the structure so much that there is little to worry about from a breakage point of view. The other requirements like bushing rate, corrosion, and valve tuning is really a best guess. They do enough of them, they can get close, but it's no where near the OEM level of detail. On top of that, the consequences for getting it wrong are not so bad. Worst case they give you a replacement part and they still might make a profit off the original sale. Markups on aftermarket are juicy.
Now, some of you are saying to yourself, "Well, I had a ____ and the original ____ didn't last at all, they were junk! This girl doesn't know her ___ from a ____ !" Even with the rigid quality and design standards, some parts fail. OEMs obviously want perfect quality, but that is not here yet. Typical failure rates for OE parts vary depending on the component but a rate of 200 PPM (parts per million failed or 0.02%) is probably considered bad [it's more likely 50 ppm but let's do worst case]. That's two in ten thousand. If you consider 4/car that's one person in every 2500 might get a failure worst case. You were a statistic, sorry about your luck, buy a lottery ticket and stfu. Aftermarket rates are harder to judge, but my educated guess is closer to 10,000 PPM (about 1%). That's one in one hundred, at four per car, then every 25th person will probably have a failure. That's why everyone knows someone that has a story.
The components used in aftermarket vs OEM and even other "premium" brands from the same company are often the same. They are so cheap it usually doesn't pay to design and tool up different versions for the replacement aftermarket. They might use different and cheaper suppliers, that don't pay as much attention to quality and thus it gets passed on through the process. The quality of aftermarket assemblies suffer due to more lax process and supplier standards, less design input, and really lower consequences of failure.
This lesson brought to you by... Beer! I'll go have one, now.
*Unless you are racing, then buy racing shocks; not shocks that are "racy".
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 36
- 91
Bullshit.
Also bullshit. The intended ride is emphatically not the "best" ride. It's the compromise that the original manufacturer preferred. It represents a setting that is not tailored for any particular use (save for very expensive sportscars or special packages that do not represent the average buyer) but rather designed to perform "well enough" under a wide variety of use cases. Just because a car came a certain way from the factory does not automatically make that way the "best." It simply means that's the particular set of compromises chosen by the manufacturer.
And, surprise surprise, more bullshit. Koni, Bilstein, Showa, KYB, and Sachs-Boge are all OE suppliers. Their "aftermarket" options are often identical to the OE units despite different part numbers. The only difference is that if you go to a dealer and buy a manufacturer-branded part instead, you'll pay more money for exactly the same unit.
Further, all of these companies have absolutely stellar reputations for reliability and durability. Yes, if you're buying "Bob's Ultra-Discount Shocks" then quality might be an issue, but to imply that all "aftermarket" brands are questionable is base ignorance.
Overall, this reads like something from an industry shill and not from someone who has actual experience working on cars.
ZV
T2urtle
Diamond Member
- Oct 18, 2004
- 3,432
- 3
- 81
Agreed. Often times in my Japanese cars when I pull OEM strut/shocks u can see that kyb/toicko makes them as their name and part number is stamped on the shaft. Why I believe they aren't 100% the same as a aftermarket unit for the same car, I believe they are similar. Obvious stuff like physical parts will be there but maybe they added a little more fluid or etc.
Some OEM stuff are just horrible because they are often the lowest bidder. Look at all the junk tires they have on OEM cars.
I've never replaced with an OEM strut/shock before due to price. I've bought bobs discount, higher end 5 way adjustable kyb/tokico and even mid range quality coilovers. It all depends on ur application. All can give u a better then OEM feel.
The bobs discount eBay stuff was for a flip I made. But that short time I had that car those rear shocks felt good like OEM if not better. How long they last.... Another story.
A 3rd vote to OEM not always being the best call.
Koni FSD dampers were cheaper than OEM and included a lifetime warranty. Plus they're a better all-around damper, both in comfort and handling.
Koni FSD dampers were cheaper than OEM and included a lifetime warranty. Plus they're a better all-around damper, both in comfort and handling.
Midwayman
Diamond Member
- Jan 28, 2000
- 5,723
- 325
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OEM is designed to work "well enough" until the warranty is up. That's it. Its possible to put total crap on your car, and if you look at that advice as someone looking to pay the least amount of money possible for replacement shocks, its not horrible. There are some really bad shocks out there. However there are a ton of shocks better quality than OEM out there too, and tuning is a matter of preference. I know my HR/Koni combo works better than the OEM did. However if my grandma came looking for shock advice I'd just find the OEM part through a discount OEM source.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 36
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It's usually less expensive to get a basic KYB or Sachs/Boge unit from a discount supplier than it is to get the official "manufacturer branded" unit from a discount supplier. Hell, sometime even Koni FSDs are cheaper than OE units, even from discount suppliers.
ZV
Midwayman
Diamond Member
- Jan 28, 2000
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Sure, if I were doing it for myself. Just avoiding the blame game depending on the person.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
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Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
Some things I like to go OEM for. I've had issues with cheap aftermarket belts before, so I try to stick with OEM for stuff like that.
As for suspension, tires, brakes, coil packs, all kinds of stuff really : Aftermarket has done really really well for me over the years. Over several hundred products I've bought in the past decade for a myriad of vehicles for myself and my family and friends, I can't think of a single one that really disappointed me in any way. Of course, some of that may be because I force myself to research anything worth researching beforehand. Amazon is great for that, I'll read fifteen pages of reviews on something if I feel like I'm getting a greater understanding of things.
An example would be the coil packs I recently bought and installed for an i30 I'm fixing up as a family vehicle. The OEM price was absolutely ludicrous, would have cost me $103/ea x6 for the stock units. On Amazon I found a set with 4 star reviews, so I sat through and read all the reviews to make sure there wasn't a trend of problems with them. Sure enough, the only negative reviews seemed to be the typical 'it was damaged in shipping or installation' kind of situations. My results? Absolutely perfect.
OEM cost for Infiniti Coil packs for my car : $618
Aftermarket cost that I paid : $89.90
And that's just a single example. I've also done both valve cover gaskets, the plug gaskets, the intake gasket, a CV axle, both front strut assemblies (the rubber at the top was cracked/broken along with the boots), oil pan gasket, harmonic balancer, lower engine seal, catalytic converter, 3 O2 sensors, starter, 6 plugs, fuel pressure regulator, EGR gasket, high pressure AC switch, and a bunch of other odds and ends I am probably forgetting at the moment. I cleaned the parts that were savable, like the EGR valve itself.
The result is a car with 165k miles that runs better than many cars I've seen with 30k miles
As for suspension, tires, brakes, coil packs, all kinds of stuff really : Aftermarket has done really really well for me over the years. Over several hundred products I've bought in the past decade for a myriad of vehicles for myself and my family and friends, I can't think of a single one that really disappointed me in any way. Of course, some of that may be because I force myself to research anything worth researching beforehand. Amazon is great for that, I'll read fifteen pages of reviews on something if I feel like I'm getting a greater understanding of things.
An example would be the coil packs I recently bought and installed for an i30 I'm fixing up as a family vehicle. The OEM price was absolutely ludicrous, would have cost me $103/ea x6 for the stock units. On Amazon I found a set with 4 star reviews, so I sat through and read all the reviews to make sure there wasn't a trend of problems with them. Sure enough, the only negative reviews seemed to be the typical 'it was damaged in shipping or installation' kind of situations. My results? Absolutely perfect.
OEM cost for Infiniti Coil packs for my car : $618
Aftermarket cost that I paid : $89.90
And that's just a single example. I've also done both valve cover gaskets, the plug gaskets, the intake gasket, a CV axle, both front strut assemblies (the rubber at the top was cracked/broken along with the boots), oil pan gasket, harmonic balancer, lower engine seal, catalytic converter, 3 O2 sensors, starter, 6 plugs, fuel pressure regulator, EGR gasket, high pressure AC switch, and a bunch of other odds and ends I am probably forgetting at the moment. I cleaned the parts that were savable, like the EGR valve itself.
The result is a car with 165k miles that runs better than many cars I've seen with 30k miles
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 36
- 91
I've never had a problem with Gates for belts. They're the OEM supplier for a lot of cars; the only difference is whether the belt is stamped with the name of the car manufacturer or with "Gates." Yet somehow the ones with the car manufacturer's name on them cost more.
ZV
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
- 1,379
- 126
That makes sense. I just remember years ago in the 90s, I bought a series of belts from Chief auto parts (they used to be next to 7-11s down here, so really easy to find before Autozone/Oreilly got big), and the ones I bought were invariably terrible.
The worst was a timing belt for my Prelude. I remember trying to put it on but it was just too big. I bought the one from the Honda dealership and there was a decent size difference. I took the one back to Chiefs with the Honda belt and they confirmed that I got the right part, but it was just not the right exact fit. I also had some serpentine belts for GMs that seemed prone to snapping, but getting the belt from a Chevy dealer : boom no problem.
That might have just been Chief auto getting the cheapest stuff imaginable. There's no reason in situations like you say where the aftermarket company makes the OE stuff anyway. Overall the vast majority of aftermarket stuff I've ever used has been great other than those belts.
The worst was a timing belt for my Prelude. I remember trying to put it on but it was just too big. I bought the one from the Honda dealership and there was a decent size difference. I took the one back to Chiefs with the Honda belt and they confirmed that I got the right part, but it was just not the right exact fit. I also had some serpentine belts for GMs that seemed prone to snapping, but getting the belt from a Chevy dealer : boom no problem.
That might have just been Chief auto getting the cheapest stuff imaginable. There's no reason in situations like you say where the aftermarket company makes the OE stuff anyway. Overall the vast majority of aftermarket stuff I've ever used has been great other than those belts.
master_shake_
Diamond Member
- May 22, 2012
- 6,425
- 291
- 121
the only time a customer wants me to replace their shocks is when they leak, a broken spring on a strut, or they get to a stop light and the car takes a nose dive when they hit the brakes.
squeaks and rattles aswell.
squeaks and rattles aswell.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 36
- 91
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't use a no-name belt, but Gates or Contitech are as good as OE in my experience.
ZV
pandemonium
Golden Member
- Mar 17, 2011
- 1,777
- 76
- 91
4th'd for OEM not being the best call.
OEM is good if you plan on keeping the vehicle completely stock and warrantied (until that warranty is expired). After that time, higher quality components can easily be had by aftermarket, usually for cheaper. The problem is knowing the differences between OEM and aftermarket and requirements set forth by the engineering of the vehicle originally. Things can easily change dramatically, which will cascade to other components; this being a much important factor - often overlooked - when looking at "performance parts".
OEM is good if you plan on keeping the vehicle completely stock and warrantied (until that warranty is expired). After that time, higher quality components can easily be had by aftermarket, usually for cheaper. The problem is knowing the differences between OEM and aftermarket and requirements set forth by the engineering of the vehicle originally. Things can easily change dramatically, which will cascade to other components; this being a much important factor - often overlooked - when looking at "performance parts".
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