How is this even possible: 88% of DC 8th graders can't read?

[Viper GTS]

I first noticed this yesterday when it was a video story on CNN. I refuse to watch those damn things out of principle, but today there's a real article with the same info:

Link

Rhee said "radical" changes are needed because only 12 percent of the District's eighth graders are proficient in reading and just 8 percent are proficient in math, but was quick to add that they're already seeing improvement. She highlighted gains in elementary reading and secondary level math and reading in the past year that outstripped all of the four prior years put together.

If the numbers were reversed (only 88% proficient) it would still be a massive failure, but WTF is going in that city? 88% can't read?

This problem is obviously much deeper than the school system. I dunno about the rest of you but public schools had nothing whatsoever to do with me learning to read. I was reading Tom Sawyer before I ever set foot into a public school. Are their parents also illiterate? I'm not letting the schools off entirely but holy shit... 88%!

A few nice areas with better literacy rates:

Zimbabwe
Ethopia
Sudan

Simply unbelievable.

Viper GTS

 

[ayabe]

This isn't surprising to me actually. I read a few months ago that the high school graduation rate in detroit was like 30% or something really ridiculous.

But hey at least the prison system isn't under any threat of reduced funding in the next 50 years or so.

 

[StageLeft]

I've heard highschool grad rate in some bad parts of detroit is actually below 30%. I know that in Rochester the city schools here do 39%. I say take that 61 and off to labor camps for them.

Anyway, I do find it unbelieveable that 88% of these kids cannot read. Surely more than 12% of them have parents that at least gave some semblance of a sh*t?

 

[jpeyton]

Title is misleading.

Not "proficient" does not mean they're illiterate, just that they aren't reading at an 8th grade level.

IIRC, I could still read before I was in 8th grade, even though I wasn't proficient at an 8th grade level at that time.

EDIT: Actually your whole post is misleading.

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
How is this even possible: 88% of DC 8th graders can't read?

It's not possible because it's not true.

88% can't read?

No, I'm sure they can read, just not at 8th grade proficiency levels.

A few nice areas with better literacy rates

Comparing national literacy rates to 8th grade proficiency rates? They're not even the same statistic.

 

[EagleKeeper]

People may be able to read, just not at the expected level.

And then there is the move them up not out policy to not expose the "handicap" of being unable to do the expected work at a given grade level. Teachers will foster the child onto the next level.

And many will make it to the 8th grade level (not in 8th grade though) and get no further. That level seems to allow just enough to ability to communicate effectively within the lower level of society and interact weakly with the rest of the world

 

[TheSlamma]

Now if only she could fire the parents too.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
And many will make it to the 8th grade level (not in 8th grade though) and get no further. That level seems to allow just enough to ability to communicate effectively within the lower level of society and interact weakly with the rest of the world

This is the key here, if you can't accomplish that you effectively can't read. And 88% can't.

Yes my title is slightly over-stated. No my national literacy rates are not directly comparable. But something is SERIOUSLY wrong if 88% of students are failing to meet the obscenely low standards we've set for them.

Viper GTS

 

[ayabe]

It amazes what you can get away with not knowing in our society. The word intellectual has been framed as a negative by the Republicans for a long time now, and is even being done in this election.

Being educated means you're uppity, an egghead, immoral, conducting a war on christmas and the rest.

With this kind of leadership we have no hope for the future and will continue to cede our scientific advantage to lesser nations.

If you make any decision based on something other than your "gut" (which is obviously the voice of God) then you are arrogant.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Title is misleading.

Not "proficient" does not mean they're illiterate, just that they aren't reading at an 8th grade level.

IIRC, I could still read before I was in 8th grade, even though I wasn't proficient at an 8th grade level at that time.

EDIT: Actually your whole post is misleading.

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
How is this even possible: 88% of DC 8th graders can't read?

It's not possible because it's not true.

88% can't read?

No, I'm sure they can read, just not at 8th grade proficiency levels.

A few nice areas with better literacy rates

Comparing national literacy rates to 8th grade proficiency rates? They're not even the same statistic.

Thanks J I feel soooo much better about it now. They can read but not at grade level that helps a lot.

 

[alphatarget1]

DC is run by Democrats. BTW I have read a few articles about Rhee... She's good. She's fighting corrupt teachers unions and trying her hardest to change things around. I hope she succeeds.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: ayabe
It amazes what you can get away with not knowing in our society. The word intellectual has been framed as a negative by the Republicans for a long time now, and is even being done in this election.

Being educated means you're uppity, an egghead, immoral, conducting a war on christmas and the rest.

With this kind of leadership we have no hope for the future and will continue to cede our scientific advantage to lesser nations.

If you make any decision based on something other than your "gut" (which is obviously the voice of God) then you are arrogant.

But not reading at eighth grade levels is okay? Being an intellectual has nothing to do with it.


BTW, doesn't the DC school district spend more per student than any other in the country?

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: ayabe
It amazes what you can get away with not knowing in our society. The word intellectual has been framed as a negative by the Republicans for a long time now, and is even being done in this election.

Being educated means you're uppity, an egghead, immoral, conducting a war on christmas and the rest.

With this kind of leadership we have no hope for the future and will continue to cede our scientific advantage to lesser nations.

If you make any decision based on something other than your "gut" (which is obviously the voice of God) then you are arrogant.

But not reading at eighth grade levels is okay? Being an intellectual has nothing to do with it.


BTW, doesn't the DC school district spend more per student than any other in the country?

It spends a lot of money, yeah. Which makes these Chicago protests look all the more stupid.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: ayabe
It amazes what you can get away with not knowing in our society. The word intellectual has been framed as a negative by the Republicans for a long time now, and is even being done in this election.

Being educated means you're uppity, an egghead, immoral, conducting a war on christmas and the rest.

Can we leave the idiotic attempts to blame this on Republicans out of the discussion.

Washington DC is one of the most liberal cities in the country. As are Detroit, New York, Oakland and just about every other major city with horrifying graduation rates.

DC has been having education problems for years. NewsWeek did a very good article on Rhee (head of the DC schools) recently. link
Highlights:
*The school bureaucracy had a reputation for bloat and incompetence, and an almost Stalinist resistance to reform. (When she arrived, no one could tell her how many textbooks the schools owned.)

*The former president of the teachers union, Barbara Bullock, is now serving a six-and-a-half-year prison sentence for embezzling $4.6 million. She admitted using union funds to buy 13 furs, 37 designer handbags and a 288-piece antique Tiffany silver set

*Rhee is the seventh person to run the D.C. schools in the past 10 years.

Finally, a great quote from Rhee herself. (and she is a Democrat)
It's embarrassing to be a Democrat when you hear Democrats talk about education," she says. "The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party that looks out for poor black kids, yet the kind of rhetoric they spew about ? [how the Bush administration's No Child Left Behind law is] 'sucking the life out of our teachers'?come on. Get real. I believe that until the Democratic Party breaks ties with the teachers unions, we are not going to see the true reform in this country that we need."

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Title is misleading.

Not "proficient" does not mean they're illiterate, just that they aren't reading at an 8th grade level.

IIRC, I could still read before I was in 8th grade, even though I wasn't proficient at an 8th grade level at that time.

EDIT: Actually your whole post is misleading.

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
How is this even possible: 88% of DC 8th graders can't read?

It's not possible because it's not true.

88% can't read?

No, I'm sure they can read, just not at 8th grade proficiency levels.

A few nice areas with better literacy rates

Comparing national literacy rates to 8th grade proficiency rates? They're not even the same statistic.

I agree, but the bottom line here is education across the majority of the country is long overdue for improvement. We keep dropping globally and it is really going to bite us hard over time. The problem goes way beyond the typical nonsense concerning wasted money and unions. That has an impact but it is not nearly as much as many people want to believe so badly.

 

[GTKeeper]

I don't know if any of you watch Charlie Rose on PBS but he interviewed Rhee recently and I watched the show.

I was impressed by her and I think she is on the right track in DC and hopefully the rest of the country can use this model for other schools. The reason she likes the No Child Left Behind act is that it puts metrics in to determine if a school is being successful. Her only criticism is that it doesn't go deep enough and she thinks that it should go into the classroom level not just the school wide level. Because a good teacher needs to be rewarded even if the school 'as a whole' may not be doing so well.

The #1 reason schools fail is because of a major lack of good teachers. Why is there a shortage of good teachers? Because teachers are paid what the union contract says. The only 2 ways a teacher gets more pay is through # of years of experience and type of degree they hold.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
The #1 reason schools fail is because of a major lack of good teachers. Why is there a shortage of good teachers? Because teachers are paid what the union contract says. The only 2 ways a teacher gets more pay is through # of years of experience and type of degree they hold.

I agree, but remember that if we want it all then we must be willing to pay for it which means taxes. I am personally willing to pay for it or at least revise how our taxes are being used in order to float that bill but that is just me.

 

[Vic]

Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

Yep I agree 100%. A good student most of the time will have good parents behind them.

Look at the bad kids and you have bad parents that want to blame the teachers and anybody else that gets near them.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Title is misleading.

Not "proficient" does not mean they're illiterate, just that they aren't reading at an 8th grade level.

IIRC, I could still read before I was in 8th grade, even though I wasn't proficient at an 8th grade level at that time.

EDIT: Actually your whole post is misleading.

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
How is this even possible: 88% of DC 8th graders can't read?

It's not possible because it's not true.

88% can't read?

No, I'm sure they can read, just not at 8th grade proficiency levels.

A few nice areas with better literacy rates

Comparing national literacy rates to 8th grade proficiency rates? They're not even the same statistic.

8th grade reading level isn't very high, hell, neither is the 12th grade reading level. It's sad and pathetic.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
The #1 reason schools fail is because of a major lack of good teachers. Why is there a shortage of good teachers? Because teachers are paid what the union contract says. The only 2 ways a teacher gets more pay is through # of years of experience and type of degree they hold.

I agree, but remember that if we want it all then we must be willing to pay for it which means taxes. I am personally willing to pay for it or at least revise how our taxes are being used in order to float that bill but that is just me.

Shouldn't we make sure we are getting results with that bill?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...4/AR2008040402921.html

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

That plays a big role too, but I disagree with how much of the pie you are slicing off and handing to the parents. Don't get me wrong. They should have a huge slice, but the teachers should have a very large slice too. I was quite fortunate as a child and teenager growing up. I got dealt a hand which included some quality teachers. I also had my fair share of garbage teachers too though. I remember the quality ones and how they did play a very important role in my motivation to learn and my success at the end of it all.

I guess what I am saying is that having one is not enough for us to succeed in education as a country without the other, but only having one is far better than not having either. Don't forget that many of these kids spend more time around their teachers than they do their parents. The parents are not the only ones raising these kids.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: GTKeeper
The #1 reason schools fail is because of a major lack of good teachers. Why is there a shortage of good teachers? Because teachers are paid what the union contract says. The only 2 ways a teacher gets more pay is through # of years of experience and type of degree they hold.

I agree, but remember that if we want it all then we must be willing to pay for it which means taxes. I am personally willing to pay for it or at least revise how our taxes are being used in order to float that bill but that is just me.

Shouldn't we make sure we are getting results with that bill?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...4/AR2008040402921.html

What accounts for the nearly threefold difference in these numbers? The commonly cited figure counts only part of the local operating budget. To calculate total spending, we have to add up all sources of funding for education from kindergarten through 12th grade, excluding spending on charter schools and higher education. For the current school year, the local operating budget is $831 million, including relevant expenses such as the teacher retirement fund. The capital budget is $218 million. The District receives about $85.5 million in federal funding. And the D.C. Council contributes an extra $81 million. Divide all that by the 49,422 students enrolled (for the 2007-08 year) and you end up with about $24,600 per child.

What kind of a question is that? Of course we need to look deep into the details and project a high rate of success based on educated theories. There is no other way to do it.

I realize that failures have occurred and there have been plenty of cases where the juice does not appear to be worth the squeeze, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from mistakes and look into more solutions even if those solutions cost money. Don't be afraid to spend money to solve this problem. Being conservative with that money is a good thing as long as it isn't sacrificing quality, but if you want it all you are going to have to pay for it in the end. It is not going to be free and odds are it is not going to cost less. Also, remember that just because we cannot 100% accurately predict the future, it doesn't mean we should stop trying. We cannot afford to do that.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

I 100% agree.

Of course there are some bad teachers, most teachers unions are a pain in the ass and are not concerned with the education of our children but the main problem begins at home.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: ayabe
It amazes what you can get away with not knowing in our society. The word intellectual has been framed as a negative by the Republicans for a long time now, and is even being done in this election.

Being educated means you're uppity, an egghead, immoral, conducting a war on christmas and the rest.

Can we leave the idiotic attempts to blame this on Republicans out of the discussion.

Washington DC is one of the most liberal cities in the country. As are Detroit, New York, Oakland and just about every other major city with horrifying graduation rates.

DC has been having education problems for years. NewsWeek did a very good article on Rhee (head of the DC schools) recently. link
Highlights:
*The school bureaucracy had a reputation for bloat and incompetence, and an almost Stalinist resistance to reform. (When she arrived, no one could tell her how many textbooks the schools owned.)

*The former president of the teachers union, Barbara Bullock, is now serving a six-and-a-half-year prison sentence for embezzling $4.6 million. She admitted using union funds to buy 13 furs, 37 designer handbags and a 288-piece antique Tiffany silver set

*Rhee is the seventh person to run the D.C. schools in the past 10 years.

Finally, a great quote from Rhee herself. (and she is a Democrat)
It's embarrassing to be a Democrat when you hear Democrats talk about education," she says. "The Democratic Party is supposed to be the party that looks out for poor black kids, yet the kind of rhetoric they spew about ? [how the Bush administration's No Child Left Behind law is] 'sucking the life out of our teachers'?come on. Get real. I believe that until the Democratic Party breaks ties with the teachers unions, we are not going to see the true reform in this country that we need."

wow :thumbsup: to Rhee. I suspect she's just pretending to be a Democrat though. I can imagine if she were a public Republican she would have had her ass run out of town.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Vic
Schools could have the greatest teachers in the world, and the kids still won't learn unless they've been instilled with the proper attitude towards education at home.

America's education problem begins and ends with poor parenting in the home. Period. Teachers and unions are just scapegoats for indifferent absentee parents.

Sounds good and is most likely partially true.

But go read that NewsWeek article about Rhee and get back to me.
She disagrees with that stance.
NewsWeek
"Over the next two years, working with another teacher, she took a group of 70 kids who had been scoring "at almost rock bottom on standardized tests" to "absolutely at the top," she says. "
and
"It drives me nuts when people say that two thirds of a kid's academic achievement is based on their environment. That is B.S.," says Rhee. She points to her second graders in Baltimore whose scores rose from worst to best. "Those kids, where they lived didn't change. Their parents didn't change. Their diets didn't change. The violence in the community didn't change. The only thing that changed for those 70 kids was the adults who were in front of them every single day teaching them."