How is it that the surge is working?

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Narmer
There are weapons from dozens of nations in Iraq. I simply asked you to prove that Iran was sending those weapons directly to the terrorists.

You don't read much do you? From the ABC link above.

"I think the evidence is strong that the Iranian government is making these IEDs, and the Iranian government is sending them across the border and they are killing U.S. troops once they get there," says Richard Clarke, former White House counterterrorism chief and an ABC News consultant. "I think it's very hard to escape the conclusion that, in all probability, the Iranian government is knowingly killing U.S. troops."

Larger and more powerful IEDs that are meant to rip through our armor that are manufactured in Iran and are beyond what insurgents and terrorists in Iraq were previously capable of building. Yeah, I'm sure those were just accidentally smuggled across the border.

From the CNN link above:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A Shiite Muslim militia involved in the warfare between Sunni and Shiites in Iraq has received "millions of dollars" and an assortment of weaponry from Iran, a senior U.S. military official says.

The UK's Independent

The modest initial gains made by the US-led security "surge" in Baghdad face a devastating new threat as thousands of Iraqi Shias are reported to be receiving military training in Iran.

...

Abu Rafed, 32, fought for the Mahdi Army in the battles for Najaf during the summer of 2004, when hundreds of militants were killed by superior US forces. He said the fierce combat had made it obvious a new approach was needed if outgunned guerrillas were to inflict defeats on the Americans.

"This is a new plan now for the Mahdi Army, it is part of a new strategy," he said. "We know we are against a strong enemy and we must learn proper methods and techniques."

Both he and another militant, 39-year-old Abu Amer, who spoke to The Independent on Sunday through an Iraqi intermediary, asking for their full names to be withheld, said they had undergone training at a base in Jalil Azad, near Tehran. Though extremely secretive about their activities there, they said they used live ammunition on firing ranges and learned house-to-house fighting in a replica of a typical city street. There was also classroom-based tuition.

Abu Rafed estimated a total of almost 4,000 Iraqi Shias, including "many important Mahdi Army leaders", had received training there last month alone, living at the camp for weeks at a time. He said the number of Iraqi Shias arriving there had increased significantly since the start of the "surge" in February.

Abu Amer said: "The training was done by Iranian Revolutionary Guards. I saw Iraqi fighters from Missan, Basra, Diwaniyah and Nasiriyah [areas of southern Iraq]. They were mainly Mahdi Army, but not all of them." More Iraqi Shias had sought military instruction, he added, after the 2006 bombing of the Samarra shrine, the event widely blamed for triggering widespread sectarian war between Iraq's Sunnis and Shias.

More

"The Qods (Jerusalem) Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) is responsible for extraterritorial operations, including terrorist operations. A primary focus for the Qods Force is training Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups. Currently, the Qods Force conducts training activities in Iran and in Sudan. The Qods Force is also responsible for gathering information required for targeting and attack planning. The Pasdaran has contacts with underground movements in the Gulf region, and Pasdaran members are assigned to Iranian diplomatic missions, where, in the course of routine intelligence activities they monitor dissidents. Pasdaran influence has been particularly important in Kuwait, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.

"The largest branch of Pasdaran foreign operations consists of approximately 12,000 Arabic speaking Iranians, Afghans, Iraqis, Lebanese shi?ites and North Africans who trained in Iran or received training in Afghanistan during the Afghan war years. Presently these foreign operatives receive training in Iran, Sudan and Lebanon, and include the Hizballah ["Party of Allah"] intelligence, logistics and operational units in Lebanon [Hizballah is primarily a social and political rather than military organization]. The second largest Pasdaran foreign operations relates to the Kurds (particularly Iraqi Kurds), while the third largest relates to the Kashmiri?s, the Balouchi?s and the Afghans. The Pasdaran has also supported the establishment of Hizballah branches in Lebanon, Iraqi Kurdistan, Jordan and Palestine, and the Islamic Jihad in many other Moslem countries including Egypt, Turkey, Chechnya and in Caucasia. Hizballah has been implicated in the counterfeiting of U.S. dollars and European currencies, both to finance its operations and to disrupt Western economies by impairing international trade and tourism."

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
There are weapons from dozens of nations in Iraq. I simply asked you to prove that Iran was sending those weapons directly to the terrorists.

You don't read much do you? From the ABC link above.

"I think the evidence is strong that the Iranian government is making these IEDs, and the Iranian government is sending them across the border and they are killing U.S. troops once they get there," says Richard Clarke, former White House counterterrorism chief and an ABC News consultant. "I think it's very hard to escape the conclusion that, in all probability, the Iranian government is knowingly killing U.S. troops."

I'm not questioning your information though Richard Clark fails to acknowledge that Iran most likely is involved with the implicit support of the Iraqi gov't.

And it also seems that no one will acknowledge Saudi support for the Sunni.

It's a wonderful deadly brew we have mixing in the cradle of civilization.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
There are weapons from dozens of nations in Iraq. I simply asked you to prove that Iran was sending those weapons directly to the terrorists.

You don't read much do you? From the ABC link above.

"I think the evidence is strong that the Iranian government is making these IEDs, and the Iranian government is sending them across the border and they are killing U.S. troops once they get there," says Richard Clarke, former White House counterterrorism chief and an ABC News consultant. "I think it's very hard to escape the conclusion that, in all probability, the Iranian government is knowingly killing U.S. troops."

I'm not questioning your information though Richard Clark fails to acknowledge that Iran most likely is involved with the implicit support of the Iraqi gov't.

And it also seems that no one will acknowledge Saudi support for the Sunni.

It's a wonderful deadly brew we have mixing in the cradle of civilization.

The Saudis, Iranians, and Syrians all have their hands in the cookie jar when it comes to causing troubles in the ME and elsewhere. If you want to say, "Well the US is a destabilizing force!" I won't argue much with that because the entire region hasn't been stable since the Ottoman Empire crumbled and every actor there is destabilizing to various degrees. But don't act like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria are innocent.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Wait...what? "Always expected to take 7-10yrs"? I thought we went in after WMDs, and knew where they were. Why would that take 7-10yrs? I don't know when the "project's" time line is supposed to have begun, but if it was before we were in country, they forgot to tell the American people about that time frame.

I meant the reconstruction efforts, once they were realized, following the capture of Baghdad.

Eventual "success" would take a commitment that I know many here, and in DC, are unwilling to make. Anything that takes longer to conclude than a two-part two hour mini-series seems to be beyond the grasp of most Americans...

Sad that.

Reconstruction efforts by whom? You realize that our own military planning had us drawing down and leaving starting less then 6 months after the conclusion of the war part vs. Saddam right? They never... never... never planned on having a significant military presence 4 years (and counting!) after the capture of Baghdad. They definitely didn't plan to be engaged in a catastrophic civil war in which having half the capital 'secured' from death squads would be considered a sign of success. (and those are the always optimistic administration/military estimates which have proved to be so wildly and deliberately inaccurate in the past.)

If you want to make some sort of statement about how things were "always expected to take 7-10 years" then if you are being honest you will admit that the sort of commitment envisioned then, and the sort that we are in now are simply not on the same planet. That is delusional.

OK, I made the important part bold for those of you who rode the short bus...

 

[Lemon law]

The ever delusional palehorse74 still has not read the NY times article or would not have bolded the following----I meant the reconstruction efforts, once they were realized, following the capture of Baghdad.

What reconstruction efforts is the precise point the NY Times article makes. Talk and promises are cheap---and its as far as neocons ever got---promise em anything but give them nothing was always the plan. As you may recall, the reconstruction was supposed to be paid for using Iraqi oil. And then you wonder why you and your buddies are getting killed in the process of enforcing their lies?

Reconstruction in a successful occupation where the insurgency only lasts 7-10 years hits the ground running. In Iraq and Afghanistan reconstruction has yet to really start. Both countries granted an ample grace period before the insurgency became a problem. But when GWB&co. gave them the Katrina treatment, GWB sowed the seeds to an insurgency that will just keep growing and growing and growing. Thats simply accepted military doctrine worldwide.

And if you don't believe me, just check pre and post war infrastructure figures in Iraq.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
There are weapons from dozens of nations in Iraq. I simply asked you to prove that Iran was sending those weapons directly to the terrorists.

You don't read much do you? From the ABC link above.

"I think the evidence is strong that the Iranian government is making these IEDs, and the Iranian government is sending them across the border and they are killing U.S. troops once they get there," says Richard Clarke, former White House counterterrorism chief and an ABC News consultant. "I think it's very hard to escape the conclusion that, in all probability, the Iranian government is knowingly killing U.S. troops."

Larger and more powerful IEDs that are meant to rip through our armor that are manufactured in Iran and are beyond what insurgents and terrorists in Iraq were previously capable of building. Yeah, I'm sure those were just accidentally smuggled across the border.

From the CNN link above:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A Shiite Muslim militia involved in the warfare between Sunni and Shiites in Iraq has received "millions of dollars" and an assortment of weaponry from Iran, a senior U.S. military official says.

The UK's Independent

The modest initial gains made by the US-led security "surge" in Baghdad face a devastating new threat as thousands of Iraqi Shias are reported to be receiving military training in Iran.

...

Abu Rafed, 32, fought for the Mahdi Army in the battles for Najaf during the summer of 2004, when hundreds of militants were killed by superior US forces. He said the fierce combat had made it obvious a new approach was needed if outgunned guerrillas were to inflict defeats on the Americans.

"This is a new plan now for the Mahdi Army, it is part of a new strategy," he said. "We know we are against a strong enemy and we must learn proper methods and techniques."

Both he and another militant, 39-year-old Abu Amer, who spoke to The Independent on Sunday through an Iraqi intermediary, asking for their full names to be withheld, said they had undergone training at a base in Jalil Azad, near Tehran. Though extremely secretive about their activities there, they said they used live ammunition on firing ranges and learned house-to-house fighting in a replica of a typical city street. There was also classroom-based tuition.

Abu Rafed estimated a total of almost 4,000 Iraqi Shias, including "many important Mahdi Army leaders", had received training there last month alone, living at the camp for weeks at a time. He said the number of Iraqi Shias arriving there had increased significantly since the start of the "surge" in February.

Abu Amer said: "The training was done by Iranian Revolutionary Guards. I saw Iraqi fighters from Missan, Basra, Diwaniyah and Nasiriyah [areas of southern Iraq]. They were mainly Mahdi Army, but not all of them." More Iraqi Shias had sought military instruction, he added, after the 2006 bombing of the Samarra shrine, the event widely blamed for triggering widespread sectarian war between Iraq's Sunnis and Shias.

More

"The Qods (Jerusalem) Force of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) is responsible for extraterritorial operations, including terrorist operations. A primary focus for the Qods Force is training Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups. Currently, the Qods Force conducts training activities in Iran and in Sudan. The Qods Force is also responsible for gathering information required for targeting and attack planning. The Pasdaran has contacts with underground movements in the Gulf region, and Pasdaran members are assigned to Iranian diplomatic missions, where, in the course of routine intelligence activities they monitor dissidents. Pasdaran influence has been particularly important in Kuwait, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.

"The largest branch of Pasdaran foreign operations consists of approximately 12,000 Arabic speaking Iranians, Afghans, Iraqis, Lebanese shi?ites and North Africans who trained in Iran or received training in Afghanistan during the Afghan war years. Presently these foreign operatives receive training in Iran, Sudan and Lebanon, and include the Hizballah ["Party of Allah"] intelligence, logistics and operational units in Lebanon [Hizballah is primarily a social and political rather than military organization]. The second largest Pasdaran foreign operations relates to the Kurds (particularly Iraqi Kurds), while the third largest relates to the Kashmiri?s, the Balouchi?s and the Afghans. The Pasdaran has also supported the establishment of Hizballah branches in Lebanon, Iraqi Kurdistan, Jordan and Palestine, and the Islamic Jihad in many other Moslem countries including Egypt, Turkey, Chechnya and in Caucasia. Hizballah has been implicated in the counterfeiting of U.S. dollars and European currencies, both to finance its operations and to disrupt Western economies by impairing international trade and tourism."

You still haven't proven that the Iranians are supplying arms directly to terrorists, unless you consider anybody that attacks a US soldier a terrorist, which makes no sense to anyone. The militias fighting American forces are 1) part of the Iraqi government and 2) fighting an armed struggle against alien forces. If you want to start labelling everyone that is against Americans a terrorist then I can play the same game.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Narmer
You still haven't proven that the Iranians are supplying arms directly to terrorists, unless you consider anybody that attacks a US soldier a terrorist, which makes no sense to anyone. The militias fighting American forces are 1) part of the Iraqi government and 2) fighting an armed struggle against alien forces. If you want to start labelling everyone that is against Americans a terrorist then I can play the same game.

:roll: Hezbollah is an Iranian-backed terrorist organization. A Hezbollah bomb-maker was recently captured in Iraq.

This is how Iran fights. Through proxy groups like Hezbollah. Not through direct confrontation.

Link

Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.

The Iraqi daily az-Zaman which is published in London and Baghdad quoted credible Iraqi sources as revealing that the IRGC had given al-Qaeda in Iraq, Strela-type SAM-7 surface-to-air missiles, modern explosives, and a large number of personnel arms including Kalashnikovs and BKC machineguns.

...

Representatives of al-Zarqawi?s group met in Beirut with members of the Iran-backed Lebanese group Hezbollah and through them established channels with Tehran.

...

Three of Zarqawi's aides entered Iran through a border cross-point in the Amara region in the south east of Iraq, IRGC personnel instructed the Iraqi border guards guarding that cross-point to facilitate the movement of the al-Qaeda members.

It has long been known that Al-Qaeda in Iraq uses Iran as a staging area. At best, Iran turns a blind-eye to them.

Iranian made weapons are also finding their way into the hands of the Taliban as well.

 

[Queasy]

Der Spiegel

The US military is more successful in Iraq than the world wants to believe.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Der Spiegel

The US military is more successful in Iraq than the world wants to believe.

great article!

"This is news the world doesn't hear: Ramadi, long a hotbed of unrest, a city that once formed the southwestern tip of the notorious "Sunni Triangle," is now telling a different story, a story of Americans who came here as liberators, became hated occupiers and are now the protectors of Iraqi reconstruction......Since June, Ramadi residents have only known the war from televison. Indeed, US military officials at the Baghdad headquarters of Operation Iraqi Freedom often have trouble believing their eyes when they read the reports coming in from their units in Ramadi these days. Exploded car bombs: zero. Detonated roadside bombs: zero. Rocket fire: zero. Grenade fire: zero. Shots from rifles and pistols: zero. Weapons caches discovered: dozens. Terrorists arrested: many."

suck on that Narmer.

 

[trenchfoot]

so, if i'm following correctly, the overall picture in iraq is rosy and bright. the surge is working miracle after miracle. hardly any american troops are being killed and injured - well, just a few every day, not much really and all the iraqi's - kurds, sunni and shiites alike are now welcoming our troops as conquering heros of islam.

the insurgency is in its final throes. bush is ready to proclaim complete victory over the terrrsts. they're either all dead or have converted to catholicism. rumsfeld is being re-appointed as SECDEF and every other neocon on the bush team that got unfairly shamed out of office is being brought back on board.

the troops are packing up and getting ready to come home for good. we're pulling up stakes and leaving the country with just a few americans left behind to keep control over their (our) government and their (our) oil fields.

the contractors are being completely honest and are completing all projects ahead of schedule under budget. halliburton is fessing up and is refunding the US treasury every cent of the billions of dollars they bilked us out of.

bush and cheney is admitting to all those little tiny white lies they perped but also freely admit that "it was all done for your own good."

all the other neighboring ME countries not yet under our control are fervently anticipating the day when they too can be invaded by us and experience the same rapture that the iraqi's experienced when they got the rumsfeld rub down.

:musich happy days oh happy days:music:, god bless america.

edit - spl

 

[Lemon law]

Well tweaker2, I hate to interrupt your rendition of happy days, but you are clearly in the amateur class. And in only 32 days Gen. Patraeus, who is the real deal consummate professional will show you how Happy Days should really sound.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
You still haven't proven that the Iranians are supplying arms directly to terrorists, unless you consider anybody that attacks a US soldier a terrorist, which makes no sense to anyone. The militias fighting American forces are 1) part of the Iraqi government and 2) fighting an armed struggle against alien forces. If you want to start labelling everyone that is against Americans a terrorist then I can play the same game.

:roll: Hezbollah is an Iranian-backed terrorist organization. A Hezbollah bomb-maker was recently captured in Iraq.

This is how Iran fights. Through proxy groups like Hezbollah. Not through direct confrontation.

Link

Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.

The Iraqi daily az-Zaman which is published in London and Baghdad quoted credible Iraqi sources as revealing that the IRGC had given al-Qaeda in Iraq, Strela-type SAM-7 surface-to-air missiles, modern explosives, and a large number of personnel arms including Kalashnikovs and BKC machineguns.

...

Representatives of al-Zarqawi?s group met in Beirut with members of the Iran-backed Lebanese group Hezbollah and through them established channels with Tehran.

...

Three of Zarqawi's aides entered Iran through a border cross-point in the Amara region in the south east of Iraq, IRGC personnel instructed the Iraqi border guards guarding that cross-point to facilitate the movement of the al-Qaeda members.

It has long been known that Al-Qaeda in Iraq uses Iran as a staging area. At best, Iran turns a blind-eye to them.

Iranian made weapons are also finding their way into the hands of the Taliban as well.

You are still not proving your point. First off, Hezbullah does not fight in Iraq, neither does the Taliban. As for the Taliban, they are not a terrorist organization. Lastly, nowhere in that article does it say Iran is providing weapons to Al Qaeda. I think you are trying to create this fog of indictment by linking various groups together, then saying that that proves a certain point. Well, it doesn't work that way. Want to try again?

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Queasy
Der Spiegel

The US military is more successful in Iraq than the world wants to believe.

great article!

"This is news the world doesn't hear: Ramadi, long a hotbed of unrest, a city that once formed the southwestern tip of the notorious "Sunni Triangle," is now telling a different story, a story of Americans who came here as liberators, became hated occupiers and are now the protectors of Iraqi reconstruction......Since June, Ramadi residents have only known the war from televison. Indeed, US military officials at the Baghdad headquarters of Operation Iraqi Freedom often have trouble believing their eyes when they read the reports coming in from their units in Ramadi these days. Exploded car bombs: zero. Detonated roadside bombs: zero. Rocket fire: zero. Grenade fire: zero. Shots from rifles and pistols: zero. Weapons caches discovered: dozens. Terrorists arrested: many."

suck on that Narmer.

More fogs of war. The success in Ramadi had nothing to do with the US Military. If it does prove it. Everyone and their mother knows that the locals rose up against Al Qaeda. The US military is just taking credit for something others did. BTW, this also undermines your assertion that AQ will build a base in Iraq to attack Americans on our soil:laugh:.

 

[maluckey]

Wow, you sound so excited. Well, if you read the article, it also says that OXFAM is not based in Iraq because of the security situation. However, it says that they worked with local NGOs in Iraq. What was the point of what you just said?

As I stated, there are virtually NO NGO's in Iraq. The very few ones that are there are working with the PRT's, or worse...locked into the Green Zone. ANY information outside of the GOI and the CF are uninformed or worse, totally ignorant of what is going on.

First, they have no presence outside of their limited sphere, second, the get their information from someone who is NOT involved in the GOI or CF, and third, they have no way to corroborate or verify facts and figures not of their own first hand vision. Try to obtain meaningful data regarding the entire united States from a chair on the porch of a shack in the wilds of Montana. Get the picture? you might talk to neighbors who get out, but their data cannot be accurately confirmed except as anecdotal at best.

Seventh, Turkey is poised to invade Iraq.

Turkey has an uneasy tacit agreement with Iraq to operate within Iraqi borders to pursue terror organizations (EG. PKK) and separatists within Iraq and the border area of Turkey. They do it weekly in the North, though they have no authority to stay. They are pretty good at it too.

The issue for the Turks is that the Iraqi PKK is preaching separatist rhetoric to the Turks. Peshmurga are sympathetic to the PKK causing issues for the Turks, and are not much help. Frequent attacks across the border have caused concern for the Turks, and made trade and movement difficult in the border region. The increased Turkish troop presence also helps to quell the Turkish Kurds thought of self-rule and independence.

In effect, it (the Turkinsh presence) is an occupying force meant to stabilize a border region that is being destabilized by terror EXPORTED from Iraq. It is the equivalent of the National Guard in the united States deployed to the border.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Narmer
You are still not proving your point. First off, Hezbullah does not fight in Iraq, neither does the Taliban. As for the Taliban, they are not a terrorist organization. Lastly, nowhere in that article does it say Iran is providing weapons to Al Qaeda. I think you are trying to create this fog of indictment by linking various groups together, then saying that that proves a certain point. Well, it doesn't work that way. Want to try again?

Hezbollah does not fight in Iraq yet US Armed forces captured a Hezbollah bomb builder?

No where in the articles does it say Iran proves weapons to Al Qaeda?

Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.

The Taliban isn't a terrorist organization they just terrorized an entire nation for years with their thuggish rule and provided safe haven to Al Qaeda.

You don't even want to read or comprehend.

Originally posted by: Narmer
More fogs of war. The success in Ramadi had nothing to do with the US Military. If it does prove it. Everyone and their mother knows that the locals rose up against Al Qaeda. The US military is just taking credit for something others did. BTW, this also undermines your assertion that AQ will build a base in Iraq to attack Americans on our soil:laugh:.

If the locals rise up and work with the US Military, that is a military success. That has been a crucial element in the counter-insurgency as implemented by Petraeus....working with locals and gaining their trust and favor.

Again, you don't even want to read or comprehend.

Here's another bit from the Der Spiegel article you didn't even bother to read.

There is no doubt that the greatest enemies of success in Iraq are in Tehran and Damascus. Many of the jihadists enter the country through Syria, and Iran supports the terrorists with weapons and money. During their operations, US troops often find brand-new mines and grenades produced in Iranian weapons factories, sometime still in their original packaging. Fighters from the Iranian Al-Quds Brigades are active on Iraqi soil, and there are terrorist training camps across the border in Iran. "Iran," says Crocker, "wants to defeat the West on more than one front, and it also wants to make sure that Iraq will never pose a threat to it again."

The ambassador has already taken part in three-way talks involving Iranian, Iraqi and American delegates, and the next round is about to begin. At these meetings, Crocker says, it is obvious that Maliki, though a Shiite, is truly not in Iran's pocket. "The atmosphere at these meetings is frosty," he explains, "I mean, really frosty." But how do the Iranians explain their activities? "They don't explain them. It's very frustrating. There is a sort of total denial of reality on that issue."

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
You are still not proving your point. First off, Hezbullah does not fight in Iraq, neither does the Taliban. As for the Taliban, they are not a terrorist organization. Lastly, nowhere in that article does it say Iran is providing weapons to Al Qaeda. I think you are trying to create this fog of indictment by linking various groups together, then saying that that proves a certain point. Well, it doesn't work that way. Want to try again?

Hezbollah does not fight in Iraq yet US Armed forces captured a Hezbollah bomb builder?

No where in the articles does it say Iran proves weapons to Al Qaeda?

Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.

The Taliban isn't a terrorist organization they just terrorized an entire nation for years with their thuggish rule and provided safe haven to Al Qaeda.

You don't even want to read or comprehend.

Originally posted by: Narmer
More fogs of war. The success in Ramadi had nothing to do with the US Military. If it does prove it. Everyone and their mother knows that the locals rose up against Al Qaeda. The US military is just taking credit for something others did. BTW, this also undermines your assertion that AQ will build a base in Iraq to attack Americans on our soil:laugh:.

If the locals rise up and work with the US Military, that is a military success. That has been a crucial element in the counter-insurgency as implemented by Petraeus....working with locals and gaining their trust and favor.

Again, you don't even want to read or comprehend.

Here's another bit from the Der Spiegel article you didn't even bother to read.

There is no doubt that the greatest enemies of success in Iraq are in Tehran and Damascus. Many of the jihadists enter the country through Syria, and Iran supports the terrorists with weapons and money. During their operations, US troops often find brand-new mines and grenades produced in Iranian weapons factories, sometime still in their original packaging. Fighters from the Iranian Al-Quds Brigades are active on Iraqi soil, and there are terrorist training camps across the border in Iran. "Iran," says Crocker, "wants to defeat the West on more than one front, and it also wants to make sure that Iraq will never pose a threat to it again."

The ambassador has already taken part in three-way talks involving Iranian, Iraqi and American delegates, and the next round is about to begin. At these meetings, Crocker says, it is obvious that Maliki, though a Shiite, is truly not in Iran's pocket. "The atmosphere at these meetings is frosty," he explains, "I mean, really frosty." But how do the Iranians explain their activities? "They don't explain them. It's very frustrating. There is a sort of total denial of reality on that issue."

Your assertion about the Taliban is just an opinion. Opinion=!fact. And the locals rising up against the foreign terrorists is not a military success. That's like saying that people in the ghetto fed up with gangsters cooperating with police is police success. It isn't. I can understand if the military took the initiative but they didn't. The people came to them, not the other way around.

Finally. as for your quote from an anonymous source (as proof that Iran is giving Al Qaeda weapons). it is not proof. I can quote an anonymous source as well and it won't be proof of anything. To paraphrase a conservative member of this board, it is one person's statement, which has never been verified. I supposed you swallowed that quote without proof, right. Like I said before and I'll say it again, you still haven't proven ANYTHING. Thanks for trying though.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: maluckey

Wow, you sound so excited. Well, if you read the article, it also says that OXFAM is not based in Iraq because of the security situation. However, it says that they worked with local NGOs in Iraq. What was the point of what you just said?

As I stated, there are virtually NO NGO's in Iraq. The very few ones that are there are working with the PRT's, or worse...locked into the Green Zone. ANY information outside of the GOI and the CF are uninformed or worse, totally ignorant of what is going on.

First, they have no presence outside of their limited sphere, second, the get their information from someone who is NOT involved in the GOI or CF, and third, they have no way to coorbinated or verify facts and figures not of their own first hand vision. Try to obtain meaningful data regarding the entire united States from a chair on the porch of a shack in the wilds of Montana. Get the picture? you might talk to neighbors who get out, but their data cannot be accurately confirmed except as anecdotal at best.

Seventh, Turkey is poised to invade Iraq.

Turkey has an uneasy tacit agreement with Iraq to operate within Iraqi borders to pursue terror organizations (EG. PKK) and separatists within Iraq and the border area of Turkey. They do it weekly in the North, though they have no authority to stay. They are pretty good at it too.

The issue for the Turks is that the Iraqi PKK is preaching separatist rhetoric to the Turks. Peshmurga are sympathetic to the PKK causing issues for the Turks, and are not much help. Frequent attacks across the border have caused concern for the Turks, and made trade and movement difficult in the border region. The increased Turkish troop presence also helps to quell the Turkish Kurds thought of self-rule and independence.

In effect, it (the Turkinsh presence) is an occupying force meant to stabilize a border region that is being destabilized by terror EXPORTED from Iraq. It is the equivalent of the National Guard in the united States deployed to the border.

Your assertion about OXFAM's numbers have no validity unless you can prove that their numbers are illegitimate.

As for your take on the Turks, care to provide proof of that agreement between the Turks and Iraqis?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
You are still not proving your point. First off, Hezbullah does not fight in Iraq, neither does the Taliban. As for the Taliban, they are not a terrorist organization. Lastly, nowhere in that article does it say Iran is providing weapons to Al Qaeda. I think you are trying to create this fog of indictment by linking various groups together, then saying that that proves a certain point. Well, it doesn't work that way. Want to try again?

Hezbollah does not fight in Iraq yet US Armed forces captured a Hezbollah bomb builder?

No where in the articles does it say Iran proves weapons to Al Qaeda?

Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.

The Taliban isn't a terrorist organization they just terrorized an entire nation for years with their thuggish rule and provided safe haven to Al Qaeda.

You don't even want to read or comprehend.

Originally posted by: Narmer
More fogs of war. The success in Ramadi had nothing to do with the US Military. If it does prove it. Everyone and their mother knows that the locals rose up against Al Qaeda. The US military is just taking credit for something others did. BTW, this also undermines your assertion that AQ will build a base in Iraq to attack Americans on our soil:laugh:.

If the locals rise up and work with the US Military, that is a military success. That has been a crucial element in the counter-insurgency as implemented by Petraeus....working with locals and gaining their trust and favor.

Again, you don't even want to read or comprehend.

Here's another bit from the Der Spiegel article you didn't even bother to read.

There is no doubt that the greatest enemies of success in Iraq are in Tehran and Damascus. Many of the jihadists enter the country through Syria, and Iran supports the terrorists with weapons and money. During their operations, US troops often find brand-new mines and grenades produced in Iranian weapons factories, sometime still in their original packaging. Fighters from the Iranian Al-Quds Brigades are active on Iraqi soil, and there are terrorist training camps across the border in Iran. "Iran," says Crocker, "wants to defeat the West on more than one front, and it also wants to make sure that Iraq will never pose a threat to it again."

The ambassador has already taken part in three-way talks involving Iranian, Iraqi and American delegates, and the next round is about to begin. At these meetings, Crocker says, it is obvious that Maliki, though a Shiite, is truly not in Iran's pocket. "The atmosphere at these meetings is frosty," he explains, "I mean, really frosty." But how do the Iranians explain their activities? "They don't explain them. It's very frustrating. There is a sort of total denial of reality on that issue."

Your assertion about the Taliban is just an opinion. Opinion=!fact. And the locals rising up against the foreign terrorists is not a military success. That's like saying that people in the ghetto fed up with gangsters cooperating with police is police success. It isn't. I can understand if the military took the initiative but they didn't. The people came to them, not the other way around.

The Taliban have kidnapped and are currently holding hostage a group of South Koreans...some of whom they have executed! How the hell can you not say that the Taliban are terrorists? The Taliban BEHEADED the driver of an Italian journalist. The Taliban had a 12-year old BOY, on camera, BEHEAD a man accused of being a spy. And I haven't even gone into all the atrocities they undertook while they were in control of Afghanistan.

TELL ME HOW THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF TERRORISTS?

Finally. as for your quote from an anonymous source (as proof that Iran is giving Al Qaeda weapons). it is not proof. I can quote an anonymous source as well and it won't be proof of anything. To paraphrase a conservative member of this board, it is one person's statement, which has never been verified. I supposed you swallowed that quote without proof, right. Like I said before and I'll say it again, you still haven't proven ANYTHING. Thanks for trying though.

I've posted multiple stories from multiple sources stating that Iran is supplying Al Qaeda with weapons, training, and safe haven. I've posted stories of Iranian backed Hezbollah bomb makers being captured in Iran.

You are willfully ignorant. That is all.

 

[Narmer]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Narmer
You are still not proving your point. First off, Hezbullah does not fight in Iraq, neither does the Taliban. As for the Taliban, they are not a terrorist organization. Lastly, nowhere in that article does it say Iran is providing weapons to Al Qaeda. I think you are trying to create this fog of indictment by linking various groups together, then saying that that proves a certain point. Well, it doesn't work that way. Want to try again?

Hezbollah does not fight in Iraq yet US Armed forces captured a Hezbollah bomb builder?

No where in the articles does it say Iran proves weapons to Al Qaeda?

Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) had provided the insurgent group al-Qaeda in Iraq heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles, it emerged on Friday.

The Taliban isn't a terrorist organization they just terrorized an entire nation for years with their thuggish rule and provided safe haven to Al Qaeda.

You don't even want to read or comprehend.

Originally posted by: Narmer
More fogs of war. The success in Ramadi had nothing to do with the US Military. If it does prove it. Everyone and their mother knows that the locals rose up against Al Qaeda. The US military is just taking credit for something others did. BTW, this also undermines your assertion that AQ will build a base in Iraq to attack Americans on our soil:laugh:.

If the locals rise up and work with the US Military, that is a military success. That has been a crucial element in the counter-insurgency as implemented by Petraeus....working with locals and gaining their trust and favor.

Again, you don't even want to read or comprehend.

Here's another bit from the Der Spiegel article you didn't even bother to read.

There is no doubt that the greatest enemies of success in Iraq are in Tehran and Damascus. Many of the jihadists enter the country through Syria, and Iran supports the terrorists with weapons and money. During their operations, US troops often find brand-new mines and grenades produced in Iranian weapons factories, sometime still in their original packaging. Fighters from the Iranian Al-Quds Brigades are active on Iraqi soil, and there are terrorist training camps across the border in Iran. "Iran," says Crocker, "wants to defeat the West on more than one front, and it also wants to make sure that Iraq will never pose a threat to it again."

The ambassador has already taken part in three-way talks involving Iranian, Iraqi and American delegates, and the next round is about to begin. At these meetings, Crocker says, it is obvious that Maliki, though a Shiite, is truly not in Iran's pocket. "The atmosphere at these meetings is frosty," he explains, "I mean, really frosty." But how do the Iranians explain their activities? "They don't explain them. It's very frustrating. There is a sort of total denial of reality on that issue."

Your assertion about the Taliban is just an opinion. Opinion=!fact. And the locals rising up against the foreign terrorists is not a military success. That's like saying that people in the ghetto fed up with gangsters cooperating with police is police success. It isn't. I can understand if the military took the initiative but they didn't. The people came to them, not the other way around.

The Taliban have kidnapped and are currently holding hostage a group of South Koreans...some of whom they have executed! How the hell can you not say that the Taliban are terrorists? The Taliban BEHEADED the driver of an Italian journalist. The Taliban had a 12-year old BOY, on camera, BEHEAD a man accused of being a spy. And I haven't even gone into all the atrocities they undertook while they were in control of Afghanistan.

TELL ME HOW THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF TERRORISTS?

Finally. as for your quote from an anonymous source (as proof that Iran is giving Al Qaeda weapons). it is not proof. I can quote an anonymous source as well and it won't be proof of anything. To paraphrase a conservative member of this board, it is one person's statement, which has never been verified. I supposed you swallowed that quote without proof, right. Like I said before and I'll say it again, you still haven't proven ANYTHING. Thanks for trying though.

I've posted multiple stories from multiple sources stating that Iran is supplying Al Qaeda with weapons, training, and safe haven. I've posted stories of Iranian backed Hezbollah bomb makers being captured in Iran.

You are willfully ignorant. That is all.

I read everything you posted and there is no shred of evidence ANYWHERE in your links that prove anything. If you want me to believe you, then say so. Otherwise, I'll prefer knowledge over belief.

As for the Taliban, that's how people do things in that region. If you want to call them terrorists, that's your prerogative (sic?). I won't argue with you on that since you were trying to divert the topic.

Again, show me evidence that Iran is giving weapons to terrorists or quit posting. If you need help, go here:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Narmer
Again, show me evidence that Iran is giving weapons to terrorists or quit posting. If you need help, go here:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof.

I have shown you proof. You keep rejecting everything out of hand and moving goal posts. Apparently, you expect me to travel to Iraq and take video myself instead of the multiple links to multiple news organizations I have posted that all mention the connection between Iranian weapons and terrorists in Iraq.

Tell me how a Hezbollah bomb-maker captured in Iraq is not proof? Remember, Hezbollah is an Iranian backed terrorist organization.

Tell me how Iranian weapons still in their original wrappings captured after raids on Al Qaeda hide-outs is not proof?

Tell me how the flow of Al Qaeda types from safe havens inside Iran is not proof?

Tell me how Iran being a regular meeting place for Al Qaeda is not proof?

Here is a quote today from a Sunni politician in Baghdad after an Al Qaeda attack that killed 5 US Soldiers.

"Arabs, your brothers in the land of the two rivers and in Baghdad in particular are exposed to an unprecedented genocide campaign by the militias and death squads that are directed, armed and supported by Iran," al-Dulaimi said.

And yet still more

The National Intelligence Estimate, released July 17, reveals that one of the two known leadership ?councils,? or Shura Majlis, of al Qaeda meets in Iran. Citing a final working draft of the intelligence document, New York Sun columnist Eli Lake reports that the American intelligence community believes that dozens of senior al Qaeda leaders operate from Iran with the aid of Iran?s Quds force, the terrorist unit of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, which reports directly to Iran?s supreme leader. According to three American intelligence sources, says Lake, top al Qaeda figures meet regularly in eastern Iran to make policy and plan attacks.

As Investor?s Business Daily writes, ?Iran has, in effect, made it possible for al Qaeda to function even as we hunt down its leaders in Afghanistan and Iraq. It?s aiding and abetting our enemy? (July 17).

?We know that there were two al Qaeda centers of gravity,? Roger Cressey, a former deputy to a counterterrorism tsar, Richard Clarke, said in an interview last week. ?After the Taliban fell, one went to Pakistan, the other fled to Iran.?

Three of the most senior al Qaeda leaders who have found refuge in Iran are Saif al-Adel, a military planner trained in the Egyptian special forces who fled to Iran after al Qaeda was driven from Afghanistan in 2001; Suleiman Abu Ghaith, al Qaeda?s propaganda minister; and Saad bin Laden, one of Osama bin Laden?s sons. Senior al Qaeda members reside in a military base near Tehran, a Tehran suburb, a Shiite holy city and a town near the Afghanistan border, according to the intelligence estimate.

Keep your eyes closed though, it makes everything easier.

 

[maverick44]

The National Intelligence Estimate, released July 17, reveals that one of the two known leadership ?councils,? or Shura Majlis, of al Qaeda meets in Iran. Citing a final working draft of the intelligence document, New York Sun columnist Eli Lake reports that the American intelligence community believes that dozens of senior al Qaeda leaders operate from Iran with the aid of Iran?s Quds force, the terrorist unit of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, which reports directly to Iran?s supreme leader. According to three American intelligence sources, says Lake, top al Qaeda figures meet regularly in eastern Iran to make policy and plan attacks.

This obviously is a joke. Al-qaeda and iran are much more likely to go to war with each other than co-operate.

Iran is a 90% shiite country. A radical shiite country with a radical shiite government I might add.

Al-qaeda is a radical Sunni group who thinks that Shiites are as blasphemous as christians, jews or hindus and need to be ethnically cleansed.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: maverick44

The National Intelligence Estimate, released July 17, reveals that one of the two known leadership ?councils,? or Shura Majlis, of al Qaeda meets in Iran. Citing a final working draft of the intelligence document, New York Sun columnist Eli Lake reports that the American intelligence community believes that dozens of senior al Qaeda leaders operate from Iran with the aid of Iran?s Quds force, the terrorist unit of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, which reports directly to Iran?s supreme leader. According to three American intelligence sources, says Lake, top al Qaeda figures meet regularly in eastern Iran to make policy and plan attacks.

This obviously is a joke. Al-qaeda and iran are much more likely to go to war with each other than co-operate.

Iran is a 90% shiite country. A radical shiite country with a radical shiite government I might add.

Al-qaeda is a radical Sunni group who thinks that Shiites are as blasphemous as christians, jews or hindus and need to be ethnically cleansed.

Iran does nothing but benefit from Al Qaeda unleashing all sorts of mayhem inside Iraq and elsewhere. The more violence and strife, the more likely it is that the Coalition forces leave and Iranian backed militias can take control in Iraq.

From the same link.

As theTrumpet.com has pointed out before, though Iran is at odds ideologically with Sunni terrorists operating in Iraq, including al Qaeda, this has not stopped it supporting these jihadists with arms to further its own ends: namely, to make staying in Iraq more untenable for the U.S. by directly attacking American forces and by fueling the flames of sectarian violence.

As Vali Nasr, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, said, ?Iran and al Qaeda do not have to like one another. They can hate each other, they can kill each other, their ultimate goals may be against one another, but for the short term Iran can unleash al Qaeda on the United States.?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Narmer
As for the Taliban, that's how people do things in that region. If you want to call them terrorists, that's your prerogative (sic?). I won't argue with you on that since you were trying to divert the topic.

You're right. There's nothing about killing schoolgirls that is terrorist-like. :roll:

And I'm not trying to divert the topic. I'm pointing out how Iran funds and supplies weapons to terrorists across the region. They do it in Palestine. They do it in Afghanistan. They do it in Iraq.

 

[Lemon law]

Again the allegation are long on allegations and short on fact. And given Iran, like the USA, is a country that makes and exports weapons, it would be almost amazing if we saw no Iranian arms showing up in Iraq.

But when you deal with a document like the national intelligence estimate, it can and should be QUANTIFYING various parameters. Things like the size of the total Iraqi insurgencies, what kinds of weapons they have, how active various groups are, where they get their arms and funding, and also things like what Percentage of the Iraqi insurgency is Al-Quida inspired. And as I recall the latest NIE places Al-Quida problem at no more than 15% of the overall problem. But a few isolated cases makes no
real statement about what the NIE's assessment of the negative role of Iran of Iran as a quantified number. Since GWB&co. can choose what parts of the NIE to leak. I have to suspect that these numbers were deliberately withheld so Cheney can continue to beat the Iranian war drums.

But common sense wise, it takes zero brains to see that the Iranians could easily release advanced anti tank missiles in large numbers into Iraq. And US causalities would skyrocket as a result. The fact that this is not happening tells me Iran is not the problem some would like to make the case for. Face the facts, Iran could easily flood Iraq
with large numbers of weapons of all kinds, they quite evidently are not, and end of that conjecture. We are quite lucky Iran is as passive as it is.

 

[maluckey]

Narmer,

My facts are more reliable than any agency NOT EVEN IN THEATER. I'm actually there, and actually part of the reconstruction. So, your ASSumption of wanting proof I return to you.

No presence, nobody on the ground=whatever they want to believe...just like you. Despite virtually every person actually having been there (or still there) there saying the opposite from you, you refuse to believe. Get real!

Do you get ANYTHING about Iraq? I doubt it....
tacit agreement

Never ASSume anything about any place that you haven't recieved anything more than third hand information about.

Do your homework, and ask questions...don't shortchange yourself to one POV.