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How Iran Is Winning Iraq

BBond

Diamond Member
The rule of unintended consequences at work.

To quote Mother Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does."

How Iran Is Winning Iraq

By David Ignatius
Friday, December 17, 2004; Page A33

If you had asked an intelligence analyst two years ago to describe the worst possible political outcome following an American invasion of Iraq, he might well have answered that it would be a regime dominated by conservative Shiite Muslim clerics with links to neighboring Iran. But just such a regime now seems likely to emerge after Iraq's Jan. 30 elections.

Iran is about to hit the jackpot in Iraq, wagering the blood and treasure of the United States. Last week an alliance of Iraqi Shiite leaders announced that its list of candidates will be headed by Abdul Aziz Hakim, the clerical leader of the Iranian-backed Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. This Shiite list, backed by Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, is likely to be the favorite of Iraq's 60 percent Shiite majority and win the largest share of votes next month.

Wary of trusting Iraqi Shiites to manage the campaign, the Iranian intelligence service has been pumping millions of dollars and hundreds of operatives into the country. The Iranians have also recruited assassination squads to kill potential Iraqi rivals, according to several Iraqi officials. One Iraqi Shiite tells me the Iranians view the hit teams as a kind of "insurance policy" to make sure they prevail, even if the U.S.-backed election process should fail.

Iraqis who aren't part of the Shiite religious juggernaut are frightened by what's happening. The Iraqi interim defense minister, Hazim Shalan, this week described the Shiite political alliance as an "Iranian list" created by those who wanted "turbaned clerics to rule" in Iraq. Shalan is no saint himself -- like interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, he was once part of Saddam Hussein's Baathist network. But he and Allawi speak for many millions of Iraqis who don't want to see an Iran-leaning clerical government but are powerless to stop it.

Senior U.S. commanders in Iraq had hoped Allawi's slate would win in January, but they are beginning to assess the consequences of Shiite victory. Not only would it empower the mullahs, it would alienate Iraq's 20 percent Sunni Arab population, who mostly won't be able to vote next month because of the continuing wave of terrorism in Sunni areas. As sectarian tensions increase, post-election, so will the danger of a real civil war. What will become of the U.S. military mission in Iraq? Will we really arm one group of Iraqis in a sectarian conflict against another?

Given the stakes for the United States in these elections, you might think we would quietly be trying to influence the outcome. But I am told that congressional insistence that the Iraqi elections be "democratic" has blocked any covert efforts to help America's allies. That may make sense to ethicists in San Francisco, but how about to the U.S. troops on the ground?

I talked by telephone this week to a Sunni tribal leader from Ramadi who, in a more rational world, would be one of the building blocks of a new Iraq. His name is Talal Gaaod, and his father is a leading sheik in the Duleim tribe, which has power in what has become known as the Sunni Triangle, west of Baghdad. Gaaod, who earned his undergraduate and master's degrees at the University of Southern California, has tried various ways to help stabilize his area. He proposed a tribal security force in Anbar province earlier this year that was backed by local Marine commanders but later vetoed in Baghdad. Encouraged by Jordan, he brought about 50 Iraqi Sunni leaders to Amman in November to discuss Iraq's problems. But the Jordanians canceled the meeting after the U.S. offensive in Fallujah began. He wants to believe the United States can create a better Iraq, but he's losing hope.

"It is a miserable situation," Gaaod told me. "My people feel that Iraq is going into a deep hole. Things are not improving but getting worse. A lot of good people are leaving the country -- I'm talking about technocrats, tribal leaders, the middle class. I blame the United States for giving the clergy a front to lead events in Iraq. I am sure you will regret this one day. It will not work. One hundred years from now, it will not work."

Iraq's Shiite majority deserves its day in the sun, after decades of oppression, and the January elections should endorse the reality of majority rule. But future historians will wonder how it happened that the United States came halfway around the world, suffered more than 1,200 dead and spent $200 billion to help install an Iraqi government whose key leaders were trained in Iran. Our Iraq policy may be full of good intentions, but in terms of strategy, it is a riderless horse.

 
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
democracy works...

against us.

rather have a democracy that works against us than a totalitarian regeam that works against us.

What if the choice is a democracy against us or a totalitarian regime for us? We have made that choice before, and more than once. It's always the latter.
 
Please. We are not leaving Iraq. We are building permanent bases there and it's just a matter of time before IRAN is guilty of something then we go there too and build bases, and stay. In both we are setting up people the administration wants in power. If the Shiite's get in our way they'll go the way of the Sunnis.
 
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
democracy works...

against us.

rather have a democracy that works against us than a totalitarian regeam that works against us.

the sad thing is if the shiite's win I doubt the goverment will stay democratic
 
Originally posted by: Falloutboy
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
democracy works...

against us.

rather have a democracy that works against us than a totalitarian regeam that works against us.

the sad thing is if the shiite's win I doubt the goverment will stay democratic
we've got an unequally waited representative democracy here in America to account for social differences among states along with requirements for 2/3rds majority votes to protect the minority.

i don't see why something similar can't work to keep Iraq democratic, less revolution.


Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
democracy works...

against us.

rather have a democracy that works against us than a totalitarian regeam that works against us.

What if the choice is a democracy against us or a totalitarian regime for us? We have made that choice before, and more than once. It's always the latter.

that we have, and i don't know if that would change, though i hope it would.. as chancing that policy is part of the vision of a new world order laid out by bush Sr.
 
Bush had plenty of warning. His father. Members of his father's administration. But the cheerleader cowboy ignored anyone who tried to talk sense to him.

When you're George W. Bush it's easy to send someone else off to do your dirty work. The little prince has been bred for this. No responsibility. No accountability. No consequences. It's the story of his life.

 
Either the Sunni minority, and their generally fundamentalist principles, are going to have power or the Shiite majority is going to be in power. Considering the Sunnis have held power firmly in their grasp for decades I think turnabout is fair play. The Sunnis are in league with the Wahhabists, the Shia with the Iranian Shiites. So no matter which way you turn there are unpleasant associations. It cannot be avoided.

But, hey. Let's look at only one aspect and fearmonger, fearmonger, fearmonger without presenting any balance whatsoever. These kinds of articles are typical of the doom & gloom crew though. Then they turn around and talk about how Bush harps on terror to instill fear. What a hoot.

What a bunch of hypocrites they are.
 
If the Sunni's manage to take power, it will surely piss off the Shiite majority and nobody wants that. You can be damn sure that the Shiite majority will win this one, and if that happens then they get to write Iraq's constitution. This is simply a lose-lose situation no matter which way you look at it.
 
I saw this coming way back when Chalabi was connected to iran a few months into the invasion. I wonder how much of this they intended to happen and how much of this just few into their lap like a nice christmas present. we still have time to rig the elections though, its not like we've never done that before :roll:
 
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
I saw this coming way back when Chalabi was connected to iran a few months into the invasion. I wonder how much of this they intended to happen and how much of this just few into their lap like a nice christmas present. we still have time to rig the elections though, its not like we've never done that before :roll:

Yeah, my instinct tells me the Iranians ticked Bush into attacking Iraq. I mean, when you think about it, quite a bit of the so called evidence regarding WMDs and such, came from Chalabi or his people. And it doesn't take a rocket Scientist to figure out that Chalabi is connected to the Iranians, as you have pointed out. It also explains why most of the shiiite are so quiet. Considering they got ditched by the U.S when they revolted against Saddam, you'd expect them to be a tad pissed off. But most of the higher ups in the shiite community seem way to quiet for my taste.
 
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
the majority of Iraq's people may vote Suuni but the Diebold machines will not...
Exactly - just as it happened here in the US.

Probably the President of DIEBOLD has already told George that he has no worries!!!!
 
Iran is about to hit the jackpot in Iraq, wagering the blood and treasure of the United States. Last week an alliance of Iraqi Shiite leaders announced that its list of candidates will be headed by Abdul Aziz Hakim, the clerical leader of the Iranian-backed Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. This Shiite list, backed by Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, is likely to be the favorite of Iraq's 60 percent Shiite majority and win the largest share of votes next month.

This article, and many comments here and elsewhere fail to point out a fundamnetal difference between aspects/parties of the Shiite clergy. Specifically (and breifly), the Iran version of Shia is that all people are inherently bad and need punishment (from the Shia clergy), and more importantly that the clergy should run the government. Ie, govern the people and "control" the secular world.

The traditional Iraqi clergy, who have historically been the authoritative voice in Shia islam believe the clergy has no role in government. This is at odds with the Iranian version, and Iran would like to claim leadership of the Shia Islam religion away from the Iraqi traditionalist.

I thought I had read that Al Sistani was a traditional Iraqi Shia. If so i doubt he would support an Iranian faction due to their deep animosity and rivalry.

Anyway, I don't think there are many in the Western world who understand much about these (very important) differences. Accordingly I feel that much of the info eminating is inaccurate to a significanrt degree. It fails to recognize these perhaps subtle yet important differences in Shia Islamic philosiphy/theology.
 
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