• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

How Iran is being backed into a corner

GrGr

Diamond Member
How Iran is being backed into a corner
November 30, 2004
The Age, Australia

Iran could be forgiven for thinking it needs WMD for its own protection, writes Scott Burchill.

Ambitious Republican senator John McCain appeared on national television in the United States last week to discuss the challenges of bombing Iran for its alleged nuclear weapons program.

Untroubled by either the morality or the legality of such an unprovoked act of aggression, McCain's concern was that an attack might be a strategic failure because the Iranian Government has spread its nuclear facilities "all over Tehran and you couldn't do it in one strike".

Putting to one side the unconfirmed status of Iran's nuclear program, its legal entitlement to enrich uranium for civilian purposes, and the International Atomic Energy Agency's efforts to resolve its concerns, one can only imagine Washington's reaction if the roles were reversed - say if an aspiring Iranian parliamentarian went on al-Jazeera to speculate about attacking nuclear facilities on the US east coast.

Such is the arrogance of double standards in the post-September 11 world.

In light of the "practical" difficulties of attacking Iran directly, Newsweek reports that "(Bush) Administration hawks are pinning their hopes on regime change in Tehran - by covert means, preferably, but by force of arms if necessary". It won't only be students of modern history who will feel a sense of deja vu after reading these words.

According to US political scientist Chalmers Johnson, in the 1950s the CIA coined the term "blowback" to refer to "the unintended and unexpected negative consequences of covert special operations that have been kept secret from the American people and, in most cases, from their elected representatives".

For the US, a classic example of "blowback" occurred in Iran after the CIA overthrew the democratically elected PM Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953 and reinstalled the Shah.

The die was cast when President Bush undermined reformist elements within the Iranian polity.

The coup thwarted attempts to nationalise British-Iranian Oil and enabled US oil companies to grab 40 per cent of the industry. However, it also produced a number of unexpected and disastrous consequences, both for the people of Iran and for the US. The coup destroyed a secular, modernising government, ushered in 25 years of brutal repression and corruption, and paved the way for Islamic fundamentalism to become the dominant form of political opposition in the country.

"Blowback" climaxed in January 1979, when Ayatollah Khomeini and the mullahs came to power in a political and theocratic revolution that has proved a catastrophe for American interests in the region ever since.

In light of such a monumental failure, greater circumspection by Washington might have been expected before serious thought was given to planning a sequel. Not so, if McCain's remarks reflect Administration policy and recent reports are accurate.

According to Newsweek, "the CIA and DIA (Defence Intelligence Agency) have war-gamed the likely consequences of a US pre-emptive strike on Iran's nuclear facilities". The problem, according to the magazine, is that "no one liked the outcome. As an air force source tells it, 'The war games were unsuccessful at preventing the conflict from escalating'."

This follows similar war-gaming early last year when the scenarios were even worse for the Pentagon. During the 2003 simulation the Iranians sank most US warships patrolling the Gulf in the first few days of the virtual conflict, effectively delivering "victory" to Tehran.

These results are unlikely to deter the neo-conservatives in Washington and their fellow-travellers in Israel who have long been determined to reverse the Iranian revolution that their venality had earlier helped to prepare. The die was cast when President George Bush undermined reformist elements within the Iranian polity by inexplicably branding the country part of an "axis of evil" in January 2002.

States such as Israel, India and Pakistan were left free to develop nuclear weapons and were placed under little pressure to sign the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Pakistan not only produced the world's first "Islamic bomb", it was also allowed to proliferate nuclear technology to North Korea, Libya and Iran.

Iraq, on the other hand, was invaded for its possession of fictitious weapons of mass destruction.

And now Iran is under threat because it did sign the NPT and presumably considers such weapons to be its only protection against a US assault.

Baghdad wasn't quick enough to develop a nuclear arsenal. Given McCain's recent remarks it is unsurprising that Tehran seems determined not to make the same mistake.

 
Such is the arrogance of double standards in the post-September 11 world.

I look at as "such is the reality of a post-september 11 world".

Having a country with open ties to terrorist organizations developing nuclear devices is a very scary situation. The developing Nuclear plants for energy is laughable considering the amount of oil Iran sits on.
It also doesnt help when they threaten the world and cover a nuclear facility with earth to try to hide it.

We can thank the Israelis for hitting Saddams nuke plant in 1981. Imagine if they didnt and he had nuclear weapons for GWI?

I dont believe it is any nations "right" to develope nuclear weapons including my own.
 
Pre 9-11 and Post 9-11 are one and the same world. It's just that blowback finally has an American face on it. This is akin to a person in Maine in 1863 asking when the Civil War is going to start.
 
if the US attacks Iran, they better have a backup plan to get oil out of the persian gulf, because in all likelyhood Iran will attempt to sink any vessel that passes thru the Strait of Hormuz. I think attacking Iran would be an unwise move. They are not Iraq, they have not had military sanctions on them for 15yrs. That country is 20yrs ahead of where Iraq was at pre-1991 levels.
 
Funny that Iran has also threatened it's neighbors just like Saddam did.

Saddam just made the mistake of going one step to far and keeping himself on the radar screen for 10+ years.

Both export terror and wanted control of the Persian Gulf through force and intimidation.
 
Originally posted by: rickn
if the US attacks Iran, they better have a backup plan to get oil out of the persian gulf, because in all likelyhood Iran will attempt to sink any vessel that passes thru the Strait of Hormuz. I think attacking Iran would be an unwise move. They are not Iraq, they have not had military sanctions on them for 15yrs. That country is 20yrs ahead of where Iraq was at pre-1991 levels.

U.S. Navy > Iranian Navy.
 
Pre 9-11 and Post 9-11 are one and the same world. It's just that blowback finally has an American face on it. This is akin to a person in Maine in 1863 asking when the Civil War is going to start.

Not in the way the US views threats abroad. 10 years ago we would just throw some more sanctions onto the country and at worst lob a couple of cruise missles to let them know we are there.

Today we take the threat of a nuclear device falling into the hands of the wrong people a whole lot more serious and rightfully so.

I never want to wake up to find out a nuclear device was detonated in the heart of NYC and 6 million people are dead.

Not only due to the loss of life in that even but what could happen here at home. I have a feeling when cities start going up in smoke. Peoples happy go lucky tune of not invading countries like Iraq will turn to turn the entire region into a sheet of glass.
 
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: rickn
if the US attacks Iran, they better have a backup plan to get oil out of the persian gulf, because in all likelyhood Iran will attempt to sink any vessel that passes thru the Strait of Hormuz. I think attacking Iran would be an unwise move. They are not Iraq, they have not had military sanctions on them for 15yrs. That country is 20yrs ahead of where Iraq was at pre-1991 levels.

U.S. Navy > Iranian Navy.

who said anything about a traditional navy battle? Iran basically has no navy. You remember the USS Cole? All it takes it one small unmanned boat.

Iran could shut down traffic thru the Straight of Hormuz
 
i dont think we (the USA) needs to be messing with other countries right now. If Iran doesn't comply with the IAEA, then we could just send the matter to the UN where they might or might not do something. We could also just bomb their reacters to hell (assuming other countries were approving) and not invade. I think invading is a BAD idea.
 
:sigh:

More revisionist history regarding Iran and Mossadegh?

Please folks, read this and learn some truth instead of revisionist, superficial claptrap like:

"For the US, a classic example of "blowback" occurred in Iran after the CIA overthrew the democratically elected PM Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953 and reinstalled the Shah."
Much is left out of that statement to levy some credibility on Mossadegh. However, it doesn't tell the whole story.

The Shah had actually used powers under his purview to fire Mossadegh, who refused to leave his position despite the law and authority of the Shah to fire him. The Shah had to leave because Mossadegh had support within the military and was going to fight the Shah instead. The CIA and Britian rightly restored the Shah to his position.

and

"The coup thwarted attempts to nationalise British-Iranian Oil and enabled US oil companies to grab 40 per cent of the industry. However, it also produced a number of unexpected and disastrous consequences, both for the people of Iran and for the US. The coup destroyed a secular, modernising government, ushered in 25 years of brutal repression and corruption, and paved the way for Islamic fundamentalism to become the dominant form of political opposition in the country."

Iranian oil was already nationalized two years previously, so that statement is BS. Also, the two biggest groups supporting Mossadegh were the Islamic fundies and the Communist Party. Iran was modernizing and secular under the Shah. Miossadegh did virtually nothing for the people. He only attempted to consolidate his power in order to become supreme ruler of Iran.

How journalists, such as the one from The Age, get away with making such erroneous statements in this day and age is beyond me.
 
Originally posted by: rickn
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: rickn
if the US attacks Iran, they better have a backup plan to get oil out of the persian gulf, because in all likelyhood Iran will attempt to sink any vessel that passes thru the Strait of Hormuz. I think attacking Iran would be an unwise move. They are not Iraq, they have not had military sanctions on them for 15yrs. That country is 20yrs ahead of where Iraq was at pre-1991 levels.

U.S. Navy > Iranian Navy.

who said anything about a traditional navy battle? Iran basically has no navy. You remember the USS Cole? All it takes it one small unmanned boat.

Iran could shut down traffic thru the Straight of Hormuz

The Cole was in port. You try to get that close to an active carrier group at sea and some very interesting things can happen to you.

 
Originally posted by: ntdz
i dont think we (the USA) needs to be messing with other countries right now. If Iran doesn't comply with the IAEA, then we could just send the matter to the UN where they might or might not do something. We could also just bomb their reacters to hell (assuming other countries were approving) and not invade. I think invading is a BAD idea.

the problem with bombing the facilities is I don't think we have a clue to where everything is. It is speculated they got a heavy water reactor out in that country somewhere, either under construction, or finished.
 
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: rickn
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: rickn
if the US attacks Iran, they better have a backup plan to get oil out of the persian gulf, because in all likelyhood Iran will attempt to sink any vessel that passes thru the Strait of Hormuz. I think attacking Iran would be an unwise move. They are not Iraq, they have not had military sanctions on them for 15yrs. That country is 20yrs ahead of where Iraq was at pre-1991 levels.

U.S. Navy > Iranian Navy.

who said anything about a traditional navy battle? Iran basically has no navy. You remember the USS Cole? All it takes it one small unmanned boat.

Iran could shut down traffic thru the Straight of Hormuz

The Cole was in port. You try to get that close to an active carrier group at sea and some very interesting things can happen to you.


uh huh, and if navy vessels get close to land, very interesting things can happen to them. do you know how much it would cost to escort every oil tanker that passes thru that strait everyday? Our navy wouldnt have time to do anything else. Lets be realistic here, are navy is the most powerful in the world, but they aren't miracle workers, nor baby sitters
 
Originally posted by: rickn
Originally posted by: ntdz
i dont think we (the USA) needs to be messing with other countries right now. If Iran doesn't comply with the IAEA, then we could just send the matter to the UN where they might or might not do something. We could also just bomb their reacters to hell (assuming other countries were approving) and not invade. I think invading is a BAD idea.

the problem with bombing the facilities is I don't think we have a clue to where everything is. It is speculated they got a heavy water reactor out in that country somewhere, either under construction, or finished.


Better start the 10 year long UN inspections now then, eh, huh, hmm, hee?
 
Originally posted by: rickn
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: rickn
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: rickn
if the US attacks Iran, they better have a backup plan to get oil out of the persian gulf, because in all likelyhood Iran will attempt to sink any vessel that passes thru the Strait of Hormuz. I think attacking Iran would be an unwise move. They are not Iraq, they have not had military sanctions on them for 15yrs. That country is 20yrs ahead of where Iraq was at pre-1991 levels.

U.S. Navy > Iranian Navy.

who said anything about a traditional navy battle? Iran basically has no navy. You remember the USS Cole? All it takes it one small unmanned boat.

Iran could shut down traffic thru the Straight of Hormuz

The Cole was in port. You try to get that close to an active carrier group at sea and some very interesting things can happen to you.


uh huh, and if navy vessels get close to land, very interesting things can happen to them. do you know how much it would cost to escort every oil tanker that passes thru that strait everyday? Our navy wouldnt have time to do anything else. Lets be realistic here, are navy is the most powerful in the world, but they aren't miracle workers, nor baby sitters

Convoys are a proven option to reduce the risk and concentrate resources.

If Iran tried to blocade the Strait and started sinking foreign flagged ships they would get bitch slapped by several navies, ours included.
 
From what I read, the US is already working hard on planning an attack as we speak. Their guess is that the mission is too great for any country in the ME to undertake, including Israel. If the US is forced to do it alone, my bet is that in 20 years from now, people would realize that such an attack was inevitable - just like the bombing of the Iraqi reactor by Israel in the summer of 1981 - and thus justified for securing our way of life.
 
Originally posted by: Trente
From what I read, the US is already working hard on planning an attack as we speak. Their guess is that the mission is too great for any country in the ME to undertake, including Israel. If the US is forced to do it alone, my bet is that in 20 years from now, people would realize that such an attack was inevitable - just like the bombing of the Iraqi reactor by Israel in the summer of 1981 - and thus justified for securing our way of life.


The US wants to free troops in Iraq for that mission. That is why elections must be held at all costs in January in Iraq to keep up pretenses, and why the Neocon's say the answer to the problems in Iraq is to reduce US troop presence. Those troops are needed for other missions.

Is war justified 'for securing our way of life'?
 
Is war justified 'for securing our way of life'?

Google my sig and find out why and when it was given to the British people... fighting for peace is NOT like fvcking for virginity, as one's former sig would tell you. I don't like wars; I don't think ANY sane person does. but there are times in history when, unfortunately, the use of force is the only way out.
 
Come on. Self defense is one thing. But this is something altogether different. War for a 'way of life' is what Hitler did. And Winston Churchill was the Arch Imperialist of all Imperialists. Frankly, that logic is the sure fire way to a hot WWIV as there is. If the US starts to go to war to assure access to oil so it can continue it's 'way of life' then other nations have the "right" to go to war for that purpose too. That includes China, the UK, France, Russia and all other nations packing nuclear weapons. The logical conlusion to WWIV is nuclear war. If one side has nothing to lose why should it allow the other side to win?
 
, one can only imagine Washington's reaction if the roles were reversed - say if an aspiring Iranian parliamentarian went on al-Jazeera to speculate about attacking nuclear facilities on the US east coast.

Such is the arrogance of double standards in the post-September 11 world.

If the Nukes in the U.S. were one bribe away from anyone getting to fire them off, yes that would be a double standard. There is series of complex protocols needed to fire a nuclear weapon here in the U.S. The nukes is the U.S are not in the danger of falling into the hands of Christian extremists bent on nuking Mecca. Once Iran develops nuclear weapons, what safety mechanisms will there be? The government of Iran can change hands overnight.
 
This is a non-starter. We are bogged down in Iraq. We can't even handle the Sunni insurgency. If the Shiites start rebelling, it will make Sunni triangle look like small potatoes.
When Iran gets the nuke, the neocons' middle east ambitions will be finished. Israel and Iran will start a nuclear arms race and everyone will sober up very quickly and turn to diplomacy, because the military option will be out of the question.
 
Originally posted by: GrGr
Come on. Self defense is one thing. But this is something altogether different. War for a 'way of life' is what Hitler did. And Winston Churchill was the Arch Imperialist of all Imperialists. Frankly, that logic is the sure fire way to a hot WWIV as there is. If the US starts to go to war to assure access to oil so it can continue it's 'way of life' then other nations have the "right" to go to war for that purpose too. That includes China, the UK, France, Russia and all other nations packing nuclear weapons. The logical conlusion to WWIV is nuclear war. If one side has nothing to lose why should it allow the other side to win?


Your have a point there. it is strong, it is right 'on-the-spot', but it does not hold on to reality. and a reality check tells us that:


In Iran US flags are burned in the streets. in the US, Iranian flags aren't burned on the streets.

In Iran, religion is controlling the country. in the US, Americans are controlling the country.

In Iran, anti-US films are on national TV. in the US, no anti-Iran films are on national TV.

In Iran, a parliament member shouts "death to America". in the US, no parliament member shouts "death to Iran".

In Iran, a child is being executed on the streets by the regime for a stupid reason. in the US, no child is being executed on the streets by the regime for ANY reason.


All those things I mentioned regarding Iran are being held - or at least supported - by the Iranian regime. would you let those guys obtain nuclear weapons?

Would YOU let them obtain an a-bomb that could indirectly - if only slightly - threaten YOUR way of life?!
 
Originally posted by: Trente
Originally posted by: GrGr
Come on. Self defense is one thing. But this is something altogether different. War for a 'way of life' is what Hitler did. And Winston Churchill was the Arch Imperialist of all Imperialists. Frankly, that logic is the sure fire way to a hot WWIV as there is. If the US starts to go to war to assure access to oil so it can continue it's 'way of life' then other nations have the "right" to go to war for that purpose too. That includes China, the UK, France, Russia and all other nations packing nuclear weapons. The logical conlusion to WWIV is nuclear war. If one side has nothing to lose why should it allow the other side to win?


Your have a point there. it is strong, it is right 'on-the-spot', but it does not hold on to reality. and a reality check tells us that:


In Iran US flags are burned in the streets. in the US, Iranian flags aren't burned on the streets.

In Iran, religion is controlling the country. in the US, Religion is also controlling the country.

In Iran, anti-US films are on national TV. in the US, no anti-Iran films are on national TV.

In Iran, a parliament member shouts "death to America". in the US, no parliament member shouts "death to Iran".

In Iran, a child is being executed on the streets by the regime for a stupid reason. in the US, no child is being executed on the streets by the regime for ANY reason.


All those things I mentioned regarding Iran are being held - or at least supported - by the Iranian regime. would you let those guys obtain nuclear weapons?

Would YOU let them obtain an a-bomb that could indirectly - if only slightly - threaten YOUR way of life?!

Fixed for you.
 
Fixed for you.

I guess I should have written:

In Iran, the regime is forcing the people to live and die by religios laws and rules. In the US, laws and rules fit a modern democratic society, driven by its wish to let all Americans live freely, regardless of their religion.
 
Back
Top