How important are pre-outs on a receiver?

[kalrith]

As some of you might know, I've been thinking about upgrading my receiver. The one that currently tops my list is the Denon 1909, which I've found for $487 new. It has all my required features (plus good quality, of course): HDMI repeating, Audyssey MultEQ, Audyssey Dynamic volume, and Audyssey Dynamic EQ. However, it doesn't have pre-outs for adding an amp later on. With my current speaker setup this is a non-issue. However, if I upgrade my speakers (as I'm bound to do eventually), I'll be stuck upgrading the receiver (again) if I want more power.

So, that brings me to my question: "How important are pre-outs on a receiver?" This isn't a poll for who currently has pre-outs on their receiver and who does not. I want everyone to answer the question as if you're in the market for a new receiver and if you'd pay extra to get a receiver with pre-outs.

On a side note, does anyone know of a receiver (refurb or new) that has pre-outs plus HDMI repeating, Audyssey MultEQ, Audyssey Dynamic volume, and Audyssey Dynamic EQ in the $500 range?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I think this really depends on your situation.

In particular - how large the room is, what the amplification needs are of possible speakers, listening levels, and the capabilities of the amplification in the proposed receivers.

It's also going to depend on the time frame that this upgrade might occur. If you're not going to be looking to upgrade for 5 years, chances are you'll be wanting to upgrade your processing at that point as well in addition to just the amplification.

As for receiver options with all those features, I think that might be a pretty tall order for under $500.

 

[EvilYoda]

Well if you know that you're going to upgrade eventually and "need more power", then sure, pre-outs would be nice. That said, leaving the receiver as the pre and simply adding an amp wouldn't be my first choice for later upgrades. If you have to do it in stages, then once again, pre-outs would be handy so you don't have to pop for the amp and pre-pro at the same time.

My response is: "meh".

 

[kalrith]

Is greater amplification only necessary for very high volumes, or will the sound quality be much improved at lower levels as well? I know that speaker efficiency definitely affects the necessary amount of power, but let's ignore that at the moment. I am pleased with how loud my speakers can get, and only get to turn them up that loudly when my wife's not home . In my situation is greater amplification unecessary?

EvilYoda, I added your response to the poll.

 

[s44]

Depends on the room size and layout. But still, even though the Onkyo 706 doesn't have Dynamic Volume, you can get it at your price.

 

[spidey07]

I think it's absolutely necessary in addition to main-ins and 7.1 inputs. With those features you can use the receiver for just about anything later on.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: s44
Depends on the room size and layout. But still, even though the Onkyo 706 doesn't have Dynamic Volume, you can get it at your price.

That's a nice price for a solid receiver, but I think I'll hold out for one with dynamic volume. One reason that I'm really wanting dynamic volume is for my wife. She likely won't notice much improvement in sound from the receiver and would question why I even got it. However, she hates the variance in volume, especially with commercials and movies with quiet dialogue and loud action scenes (I had to change the volume a lot in The Dark Knight last week). I'm interested to see the price of the 707 when it comes out. The other 7-series receivers have dynamic volume, so that one should as well.

 

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: kalrith
EvilYoda, I added your response to the poll.

LOL!

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: kalrith

Originally posted by: s44
Depends on the room size and layout. But still, even though the Onkyo 706 doesn't have Dynamic Volume, you can get it at your price.

That's a nice price for a solid receiver, but I think I'll hold out for one with dynamic volume. One reason that I'm really wanting dynamic volume is for my wife. She likely won't notice much improvement in sound from the receiver and would question why I even got it. However, she hates the variance in volume, especially with commercials and movies with quiet dialogue and loud action scenes (I had to change the volume a lot in The Dark Knight last week). I'm interested to see the price of the 707 when it comes out. The other 7-series receivers have dynamic volume, so that one should as well.

Have you tried "night mode"?

 

[Tiamat]

On an entry level receiver, moot. On a medium grade receiver, pretty important. On a high-end receiver, moot.

Explanation:

Entry level doesn't need them because target audience doesn't know about them.

Mid-grade receiver needs them because target audience is curious about amplification or hold price/performance to a high degree and do not want to fork for a pre/pro.

High-end receiver doesn't need them because target audience doesn't care about them. If target audience cared, they would have purchased a pre/pro.

 

[bobdole369]

Ask yourself this.

"Will I ever outgrow the amp on the Denon?"

and then:

"Do I feel the need to experiment with different amps?"

If the answer is yes to either - get the preouts.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Oh, and this would probably be helpful
http://www.audyssey.com/products/index.html

 

[nakedfrog]

I think this is sort of the thing where either you want them, or you don't care.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Oh, and this would probably be helpful
http://www.audyssey.com/products/index.html

Thanks! That's extremely helpful. I've looked around on various forums for a list like that, but for some reason never thought to go to the source.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: kalrith

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Oh, and this would probably be helpful
http://www.audyssey.com/products/index.html

Thanks! That's extremely helpful. I've looked around on various forums for a list like that, but for some reason never thought to go to the source.

No problem.

From Onkyo it looks like you're looking at roughly $1000 to get all those features. (refurb 876 or 886) I was lucky enough to get an 876 in the $600 range, but that was due to an expired deal.

For Denon you've got the 2809 and up? That's right around $1000 new from an authorized dealer.

 

[kalrith]

Well, what's strange is that Onkyo's website shows that the 876 and 906 do NOT have dynamic volume, even though Audyssey's site claims they do. I guess I'll wait until the 707 comes out and see what it's priced at.

The Denon 2809/989 is the least-expensive model with all the features I want plus pre-outs. I can get a refurb 989 for $700 after cash back on ebay. $700 is a big jump in price just in case I might need pre-outs in the future. I could get a refurb 789 (same as 1909) for $400 or a new one for $80 more. Also, there's a $100 price drop in the MSRP for the new 1910/790 model: $549 for the 1910 and $499 for the 790. I think I'll wait a little bit for all these new receivers to be released and then see what's the best option.

Also, I have no plans of making the jump from 5.1 to 7.1, so I could use the connections from the rear surround speakers to bi-amp the mains. That would at least provide extra power to two of my speakers.

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Well I can confirm that the 876 indeed does have Dynamic Volume.

 

[Adul]

i never go back to the amplifier of a receiver again. They just don't push out any descent power. A nice dedicated power amplifier can later be bought and added when you have preouts to send signal to. I plan to pass down my Emotiva LPA1 when I upgrade my amp to a UPA7 or XPA5 from emotiva.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Well I can confirm that the 876 indeed does have Dynamic Volume.

That's good to know. It's probably safe to assume that the 906 does as well. Where'd you find an 876 for $600? I did a quick search, and the cheapest price I found was $840 for a refurb. How do you like your 876? Do you have any heat issues with it? My receiver will be in the middle shelving section of my entertainment center with the front and back open for ventilation.

I'm thinking that unless I can find a great deal on a receiver like the 876 or 2809/989 that I'll have to go for something less-expensive like the 1909/789 or 1910/790 (or even the 507 or 607, but those only have 2EQ and not MultEQ). I don't know when my next speaker upgrade will be, and it seems like a misplaced use of money to have a $700 receiver driving $350 worth of speakers (not counting the sub, which isn't driven by the receiver anyways). Granted, I got good deals on the speakers, but I'd probably notice a bigger increase in performance to just drop $700 on some nicer mains than to drop that much on a receiver; however, my wife's more likely to allow me to buy a new receiver with the new Audyssey features, because those are things that she's actually looking forward to and would actually notice.

I always have to do my upgrades in steps, so it won't be an option for me to just wait until I have $3,000 grand to drop into a pre/pro, amp, 5 speakers, and a sub. That's why I'm trying to be forward thinking and make sure that I buy a receiver now that will drive my future purchase of speakers. Whenever I do upgrade my speakers. I'll probably start by spending $600 - $1000 on a new set of mains, just to give you an idea of my future plans.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: kalrith

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Well I can confirm that the 876 indeed does have Dynamic Volume.

That's good to know. It's probably safe to assume that the 906 does as well. Where'd you find an 876 for $600? I did a quick search, and the cheapest price I found was $840 for a refurb. How do you like your 876? Do you have any heat issues with it? My receiver will be in the middle shelving section of my entertainment center with the front and back open for ventilation.

I'm thinking that unless I can find a great deal on a receiver like the 876 or 2809/989 that I'll have to go for something less-expensive like the 1909/789 or 1910/790 (or even the 507 or 607, but those only have 2EQ and not MultEQ). I don't know when my next speaker upgrade will be, and it seems like a misplaced use of money to have a $700 receiver driving $350 worth of speakers (not counting the sub, which isn't driven by the receiver anyways). Granted, I got good deals on the speakers, but I'd probably notice a bigger increase in performance to just drop $700 on some nicer mains than to drop that much on a receiver; however, my wife's more likely to allow me to buy a new receiver with the new Audyssey features, because those are things that she's actually looking forward to and would actually notice.

I always have to do my upgrades in steps, so it won't be an option for me to just wait until I have $3,000 grand to drop into a pre/pro, amp, 5 speakers, and a sub. That's why I'm trying to be forward thinking and make sure that I buy a receiver now that will drive my future purchase of speakers. Whenever I do upgrade my speakers. I'll probably start by spending $600 - $1000 on a new set of mains, just to give you an idea of my future plans.

Yeah, the 906 and the 886 pre-pro have it as well.

I got the refurb 876 for $600 by buying from Accessories4Less through ebay using cashback and using a sony credit card $200 off the first purchase of $350+ promotion.

Newegg had them for $899 new at the end of March, but shortly after I bought mine it seems like some external force cause almost all manufacturers to increase their price several hundred dollars for new units.

I almost ended up with an 885 pre-pro (which lacked some of the features you're looking for) for under $300, but I was about 10 minutes late to the party

The 876 gets quite hot. I put a cooking thermometer on the top of it and I think it was up in the 180 degrees range? I can't remember exactly how high it got, but it was definitely too hot to keep your hand on it for more than a couple seconds.
It has a reasonable amount of ventilation around it, and I definitely wouldn't want to keep it in a spot with any less ventilation.
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/YOyoYOhowsDAjello/876.JPG

I believe there are some options to turn off some of the features that reduce the heat output of the unit, but I haven't looked into it closely. I bet that info is in here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1067401

 

[s44]

Yoyo, have you set it to 4ohm operation? This is supposed to reduce the amp section's heat quite a bit. (Actually, you probably shouldn't use it for actually running 4ohm speakers -- it's a serious and unnecessary current limiter -- but it's good when you are just using it as a pre.) I think you're supposed to run Audyssey again after the switch, though.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I haven't done that. I'll try that next chance I get.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

pre-outs for my car stereo.
not needed for my home theater.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

"Don't need them/wouldn't pay extra for them"

a decent receiver suits my needs. i probably won't upgrade for another couple years, although the hdmi features are tempting.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: bobdole369
Ask yourself this.

"Will I ever outgrow the amp on the Denon?"

and then:

"Do I feel the need to experiment with different amps?"

If the answer is yes to either - get the preouts.

This. Or if you already have an amp.

I have separates. I don't see me spending 2k again on another pre-pro, so if I buy a receiver to get some newer bells and whistles, pre-outs will definitely be a requirement for me.