How feasible is running windows server 2003 from a flash drive?

coolred

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Nov 12, 2001
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My friend just bought an 8GB usb flash drive. He said he plans to use it to run windows server 2003 off of. I am just wondering how well this would work. I have heard of people running small versions of linux off flash drives, but not sure how well that works, although I would think it would be better then windows.

He says since the USB bus is faster then a CDrom, that it should run better then live cd's and stuff like that. I mean it would be cool if it worked, but something tells me he and I are missing something and that it won't work, or won't run very well at least.
 

nweaver

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Jan 21, 2001
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what would be the point?

The point of linux LIVE distro's is the versatility...you lack (imho) alot of that with windows.


also, with linux you can limit swap file usage, can't really fully disable that with windows, and flash drives have a finate number of reads/writes. If you start hitting the swap heavily, then you might burn that drive out.

Linux also deals with H/W detection/drivers/changes MUCH better then windows.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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Usually with those drives the seek time is virtually 0 since there's no physical seeking to do but the sustained transfer rates are pretty bad so I doubt the performance will be very good. Also most flash drives have a set number of writes that they can do before they start to die, I don't know how long one would last having Windows running from it all of the time but it definitely won't be as long as a normal hard disk.
 

coolred

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Nov 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: nweaver
what would be the point?

The point of linux LIVE distro's is the versatility...you lack (imho) alot of that with windows.


also, with linux you can limit swap file usage, can't really fully disable that with windows, and flash drives have a finate number of reads/writes. If you start hitting the swap heavily, then you might burn that drive out.

Linux also deals with H/W detection/drivers/changes MUCH better then windows.

The point is that he wants to play with server 2003, he bought a SFF dell that only has space/power for 1 hard drive and for whatever reason, he is set against partitioning that hard drive to run both OS's
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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So tell him to grab a copy of VPC or VMWare Server, they're both free now and will work a lot better than booting from a flash drive.
 

Rilex

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Sep 18, 2005
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This is a really bad idea and will cause the flash drive to quickly expire due to the limited (albiet large) amount of writes flash drives can handle.
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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You could probably do it. I don't know how you would start to go about doing it with Windows though.

For instance how do you deal with the bootloader and Windows drive assignments? I suppose you could use BIOS harddrive emulation for USB devices.

I did it with Linux, but I wanted it to be portable. I had it setup to autoconfig the gui and drivers and harddrives and such each new computer I plugged into. I don't think that that would be possible with Windows.

But I suppose as long as you have it on one computer then that would be fine.

For performance it would be bad. Very bad. With Linux live-cdroms they use very high level of compression to get everything to fit on a cdrom. This helps because the compressed information can be read off the disk much faster then uncompressed information, the additional cpu overhead isn't that much in a modern machine.

I never tried a Windows-based live cdrom though, so I don't know how it compares. Does Windows 2003 support file system compression?

Also as far as real-world use goes the live linux cdroms use a ram-based file system layered over the read-only compressed file system. So actual use will be pretty fast as anything that is being read/written is all done in RAM.

On a USB key this sort of thing kills your performance.


So for server use it only makes sense to use a flash-based devices for a server were the server's file system remains relatively static.

That is for the majority of the time it's read-only. You start up the system, it starts up the services and those services stay running in RAM the entire time with very little swaping.

Then you still would have to have a real harddrive for data, swap file, and temporary files.

If you do that then a flash drive will easily outlast that harddrive. But if you keep the swap file and temporary files on the flash drive then it will wear out fairly quickly.

For instance a decent drive would have a read/write cycle lifetime of 100,000 times. So you could read/write to the entire drive a hundred thousand times. Also in addition they have load balancing systems so you don't wear out a paticular section of the drive faster then any other parts. It tries to spread it around. So with a 2 gigs of a 8gig flash drive used up with about 256 megs of data that gets writen/read to constantly then you maybe able to get around 2 million writes before you start to wear out things.

So say the flash drive was constantly busy. You have a real-world write peformance of about 5-6MB/s (which is pathetic, a typical harddrive has about what I expect would be 30-40MB/s in real usage.) (read speed is much faster)

So say you have that 256 meg workload, has 6 gigs of free space, and has a write speed of 6MB/s. It would take you 42 seconds to write that data out.

If I did the math correctly then that would allow about 3 years worth of life to that flash drive before it would wear out and you lost your data. That is under constant 24/7 use of writing over a aviable space of 6 gigs of spare room.

Now if you only had a gig worth of spare room then under constant writes it would wear out in about a year.

That's under 24/7 writing.

Now if you tailor your system to move temporary files to a ramdisk and eliminate the swap then you can easily have a flash drive that will outlast a harddrive if you use it for mostly read-only stuff.

If you have a lot of data you want to work with and have a read/write workload then sticking the OS on the flash drive, but having swap, temporary files, and work data on a real harddrive would work out fine.

but that's a lot of work.

 

coolred

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Nov 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
So tell him to grab a copy of VPC or VMWare Server, they're both free now and will work a lot better than booting from a flash drive.

Yeah i already tried that, he dismissed it without even really considering it or giving me a reason why.

Good info guys, I didn't know about the limited read/writes on these drives. I just assumed it would run slow, if he could get it work at all.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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Yeah i already tried that, he dismissed it without even really considering it or giving me a reason why.

He's not going to get very far if he's not willing to check out all of the alternatives, especially considering that in this case VMWare is probably the easiest option to try.
 

coolred

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Nov 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Yeah i already tried that, he dismissed it without even really considering it or giving me a reason why.

He's not going to get very far if he's not willing to check out all of the alternatives, especially considering that in this case VMWare is probably the easiest option to try.

I know, I have played with VMware(didn't realize it was free now, lol) and I like it, but I have just been toying with it, I haven't done multiple OS's yet.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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I know, I have played with VMware(didn't realize it was free now, lol) and I like it, but I have just been toying with it, I haven't done multiple OS's yet.

VMWare Server is free, Workstation and the highend (ESX?) Server editions aren't. And it's a much better way to mess with something, you can run as many OSes at once as your machine can handle so you can network them without actually having to own any extra machines or networking equipment and with the snapshots you can royally f' up the machine and roll back to the previous snapshot to undo it.
 

RebateMonger

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Dec 24, 2005
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I do all my learning and experimentation with servers, clients, and networks, inside of Virtual PC 2004. (VMWare would work similarly). I gave up using REAL computers for such things several years ago. Too much work... :(
 

MrChad

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Aug 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
I know, I have played with VMware(didn't realize it was free now, lol) and I like it, but I have just been toying with it, I haven't done multiple OS's yet.

VMWare Server is free, Workstation and the highend (ESX?) Server editions aren't. And it's a much better way to mess with something, you can run as many OSes at once as your machine can handle so you can network them without actually having to own any extra machines or networking equipment and with the snapshots you can royally f' up the machine and roll back to the previous snapshot to undo it.

VMWare Player is free, and there are free tools available to create virtual machines if you don't have the requirements to install Server.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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VMWare Player is free, and there are free tools available to create virtual machines if you don't have the requirements to install Server.

VMWare server has requirements?
 

JasonCoder

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Feb 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Yeah i already tried that, he dismissed it without even really considering it or giving me a reason why.

He's not going to get very far if he's not willing to check out all of the alternatives, especially considering that in this case VMWare is probably the easiest option to try.

QFT

Get your boy interested in virtualization. It's very cool and you'll never go back to fighting with partitions and boot loaders. There's even hardware support for virtualization on the newer intel and amd chips. VMWare is a bit ahead of VPC right now but I'm beta testing VPC 2007 and it's pretty nice.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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There's even hardware support for virtualization on the newer intel and amd chips.

Except that those extensions are virtually useless to most people, pun intended. =)

All the VT support does is take some of the hypervisor's low level jobs and move them into hardware to take some load off of the hypervisor and speed it up a bit. And since VMWare Workstation, GSX Server and VPC aren't hypervisor based they're not affected. Paravirtualization implementations like Xen, VMWare ESX Server (in the future I think), Linux KVM/KQemu, etc will be the ones to benefit from the VT extensions and as it'll let them run full unmodified guest OSes. Right now if you want to run an OS in Xen it has to be ported to Xen which doesn't work too well if you want to run something closed source like Windows.
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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Yep. The VT/Pacifica stuff is only realy usefull for Xen at this point.

With Vmware stuff they have some benchmarks that show their software emulation of certain x86 functions is better then using the VT stuff. I don't know how honest it is, but it's probably indicates that they aren't planning on switching over any time soon.

I don't know much about Vmware vs VPC, but it's worth it to keep in mind the difference between hypervisors and what VPC does.

With stuff like Xen/Linux or the Vmware ESX stuff your not running one OS on top of another. That way you don't have conflicts with I/O scedualing and you don't have problems with shared memory and such and everything is more efficient.

Keep in mind that VMware has many different products. Teh Vmware ESX stuff is much much different from the Vmware Server or Workstation stuff.

Right now Xen requires Linux to provide abstractions for disk I/O and network access, but that's about it. If you run Windows on Xen/Linux it actually uses different memory space and such. With Vmware their hypervisor is more advanced. You do stuff like allocate 256 megs of RAM to Linux and 128 megs to a different linux and then 512 megs to XP and so on and so forth.

Intel has experimental version of Xen designed to take advantage of VMM-IO bypass features in future hardware that will provide 100% virtualization were Xen is allowed to have various peices of the hardware accessed directly by the hosted OS. This will first start to show up to provide high speed network access to hosted systems for server work.

Microsoft has a couple years to go before it catches up to Xen/Linux and Vmware stuff. They should have a hypervisor aviable as a add-on for their 'Longhorn Server'.

In the meantime Microsoft is working with Novell to get support for Xen/Linux.

Once the hardware support matures and such and you get PCIe-2.0 (it's suppose to have the extensions to allow vmm-io bypass features.. at least a subset) hardware aviable then expect virtualization to _realy_ take off.
 

JasonCoder

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Feb 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
There's even hardware support for virtualization on the newer intel and amd chips.

Except that those extensions are virtually useless to most people, pun intended. =)

All the VT support does is take some of the hypervisor's low level jobs and move them into hardware to take some load off of the hypervisor and speed it up a bit. And since VMWare Workstation, GSX Server and VPC aren't hypervisor based they're not affected.

Soooo VPC supports a feature that it doesn't use?

From the VPC 2007 readme

Support for hardware-assisted virtualization

Virtual PC 2007 includes support for virtualization technology from Intel and AMD. By default, hardware-assisted virtualization is enabled if the feature is enabled on the physical computer. You can turn this assistance on or off for each virtual machine by modifying the virtual machine settings.

Whereas VMWare Virtual Server lists VT support as experimental. Who knows, the support in VPC could be "experimental" as well.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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Soooo VPC supports a feature that it doesn't use?

Probably, I wouldn't put it past MS to market something they haven't implemented yet. =)

I guess it's possible that VPC just installs a kernel driver to work with the VT stuff, but I still stand by my statement that it's uses are extremely limited and most people will never notice whether their CPU has the instructions or not.

Whereas VMWare Virtual Server lists VT support as experimental. Who knows, the support in VPC could be "experimental" as well.

You just said that you're beta testing VPC 2007 so I would say it's all still marked experimental. =)
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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Soooo VPC supports a feature that it doesn't use?

Maybe.

People have this mistaken notion that software = slow and hardware = fast. This isn't always true. In fact it's often false.

Some examples:
mpeg2/mpeg4 hardware acceleration in Via Mini-ITX machines is slower then good software codecs.
Linux software raid is generally (as in most of the time) has higher I/O speeds then hardware RAID devices, even very expensive cards.
TCP/IP offload engines in high-end gigabit ethernet cards often do perform worse then when the offload stuff is disabled.
WinModems (with good software drivers) can get better line quality and higher speeds then hardware serial modems.


In these things you use hardware to offload work from the cpu, but it doesn't mean that software is slower.
this is what is going to be so kick-ass about having cheap dual core and quad core cpus. You eliminate the need for a whole classes of hardware.

This is partially true with the VT extensions.
http://www.vmware.com/pdf/asplos235_adams.pdf

Note that originally the Intel-VT and AMD pacificia wasn't designed to let Xen abstract hardware easier.. It was originally designed (or at least intended) for Microsoft Palladium stuff that got dropped from Longhorn.

Palladium is a DRM-related (generally for DRM, but possibly usefull for other stuff) idea to create a 'secure' execution environment seperate from the actual operating system your running. This way you can have a seperate sort of 'mini-os' that you can use TPM modules to more easily lock out people from the software running on their computer.

 

Brazen

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Jul 14, 2000
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Originally posted by: drag

With stuff like Xen/Linux or the Vmware ESX stuff your not running one OS on top of another. That way you don't have conflicts with I/O scedualing and you don't have problems with shared memory and such and everything is more efficient.

Keep in mind that VMware has many different products. Teh Vmware ESX stuff is much much different from the Vmware Server or Workstation stuff.

Just thought I would point out that ESX server is just a modified version of RHEL3. It's the same sort of setup as installing VMWare Server on CentOS linux. You do get an optimized kernel, an optimized file system, and rpm packages that have a lot more features and optimizations, but it's still running virtual servers within another OS.
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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Originally posted by: Brazen
Originally posted by: drag

With stuff like Xen/Linux or the Vmware ESX stuff your not running one OS on top of another. That way you don't have conflicts with I/O scedualing and you don't have problems with shared memory and such and everything is more efficient.

Keep in mind that VMware has many different products. Teh Vmware ESX stuff is much much different from the Vmware Server or Workstation stuff.

Just thought I would point out that ESX server is just a modified version of RHEL3. It's the same sort of setup as installing VMWare Server on CentOS linux. You do get an optimized kernel, an optimized file system, and rpm packages that have a lot more features and optimizations, but it's still running virtual servers within another OS.


My mistake.

Although in that case ESX still has a hypervisor like Xen does so either way that Redhat system is running on top of the hypervisor. They may abstract the I/O for network and disk and provides a emulated framebuffer (or video card) for management stuff, but stuff still runs in their own partition. At least that is how Xen works (except the Xen framebuffer called 'PV' is in development, so console access to systems running in domu only right now)

edit:

ah well. mostly wrong again. The Wikipedia article seems to have a decent explaination of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware#VMware_ESX_Server
 

coolred

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Nov 12, 2001
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So I talked to him today, he says vmware/VPC are out because they are "resource hogs". Doesn't want to use a 3rd party partition app to partition his drive since he may lose all his data if something went wrong. I told him to buy an external drive and backup to that and format then do what he wants. He said he wasn't sure if he wanted to buy a new hard drive, yet he just bought an 8GB flash drive. Hes nuts what can I say.