How does religion influence the background of our politics?

[MrDudeMan]

first of all, i never post in P&N, but i read it all the time, so keep it relatively light for me please

my question isnt that of a troll or meant for flamebait, but a genuinely curious mind asking for the opinions of those who are more "learned" in this area.

ok, this may seem like a very generic or already answered question, but that could all be in the presentation. i am wondering what you guys think religion played in the formation of our laws, rules, forming of political parties, etc.

basically, how would things be different if religion were never a part of it? dont say "just look at xxx country" because our country, religion or no religion, was meant to be different than others AFAIK.

i tried and tried to think through this and come to some conclusions but i just do not know enough about the basics and history of it to make an educated guess. can anyone explain to me what you think would be different if it was never involved, and how you think it affected everything since it is involved?


FYI, i am not asking for right and wrong, so dont even start with the "they were stupid because..." i just want to know how it INFLUENCED - not which is better or worse!

TIA and i hope this doesnt turn into a flamefest

 

[ElFenix]

the whigs were basically the religious party against the lodges that tended to rule politics at the time (and with the number of people with close ties to skull and bones running around in high office maybe they still do!)

 

[MrDudeMan]

ok thats a start...now how did the rules that each of them established vary depending on religious or non-religious influence? i am trying to understand the foundation of our government, but not in a textbook kind of way. its very hard to explain what i am driving at, but maybe you guys can give me something to work with.

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
basically, how would things be different if religion were never a part of it? dont say "just look at xxx country" because our country, religion or no religion, was meant to be different than others AFAIK.

one example :

religion plays a minor, decorative role in plato's republic. yes, veneration for the gods is important, but religion in itself never deteriorates
into fanaticism and the ideal state envisioned by plato is not a theocracy. yet still he finds that any state, as it matures, will find need for
a professional army because with internal population growth comes the necessity for more land. this will result in encroachment on your
neighbor's land, and wars will result.

does this help ?

 

[MrDudeMan]

yeah that helps a little, but im still not getting what i am looking for. i think you guys are just not understanding what i am asking because it is very hard to explain...

that is pretty interesting though (about plato i mean)

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
ok thats a start...now how did the rules that each of them established vary depending on religious or non-religious influence? i am trying to understand the foundation of our government, but not in a textbook kind of way. its very hard to explain what i am driving at, but maybe you guys can give me something to work with.

well the whigs weren't around for very long, they basically split over the slavery debate.


religion played a big role in the slavery debate, with many of the evangelical churches being actively against slavery

 

[Moonbeam]

Briefly:

Many many thousands of years ago humans had a unified consciousness because they had no language with which to separate classify and divide. Each person was the universe because the universe reflected perfectly in each persons awareness exactly as it is. This is called the Garden of Eden and is a dim memory in each person today because it was the state in which we were born and the state that remains a potential.

Along comes the invention of language and the beginning of mental illness, the identification of words with abstracts that have no real existence. With the knowledge of good and evil, the fiction that these exist, we began to call ourselves bad. This is known as the eating of the Forbidden Fruit. Because everyone is perfect and doesn't want to be bad, the pain of being made to feel bad is unbearable since it's the maximum pain there can be. As children, humans have no defenses of any kind, so they suffer pain to its max.

The human mind can't function suffering its maximum pain. The pain is repressed and the fact of it forgotten. The feeling that one is worthless gets buried deeply away.

People who repress their feelings are dangerous to be around. Anything comes up that reminds them of their past experience of suffering and they kill. Humanity has fallen into hell.

The question then becomes what do you do with the mess. Laws, government, religion, etc, these are all means to deal with the psychosis.

Like any human phenomenon there are degrees of being sick, all the way from psycho killer to saint and beyond. Those least sick recognize each other and long ago banded together to try and save man. They help to produce what are sometimes called Avatars or perfect men. These are the real marines of the world, people who have become all that they can be. Some call them God Men. Some call them God.

Each of them teaches according to time place and need and it is they who are credited with religion. They all try to offer a way to overcome our deeply hidden and falsely based notion that we are worthless.

Since everybody is actually perfect, everybody feels the pain that meaningless self hate brings. That is why we constantly try to reinforce our false egos against the threat of this pain. But it is also why so many experience longing, as Rumi said, like the plaintive flute singing for it's lost home in the reed bed.

But there is no going back to get back, there is only going through. But because we cannot face the real issue, the pain we feel inside, we try to manipulate the world to make it better. By so doing we create what we fear. So everything in the world is that one thing, our insanity. Only the Avatars ever really get free. For that we despise them and put them up on the cross. One even showed us who we really are to give us that self awareness of how sick we are. Without self awareness there is no hope, no.

 

[MrDudeMan]

moonbeam, that didnt answer my intial question, but wow did it give me a new outlook on the matter. i am curious to know if you thought all that up on your own or if you actually have taken part in deep discussions regarding the issue.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
moonbeam, that didnt answer my intial question, but wow did it give me a new outlook on the matter. i am curious to know if you thought all that up on your own or if you actually have taken part in deep discussions regarding the issue.

Don't encourage him!

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
moonbeam, that didnt answer my intial question, but wow did it give me a new outlook on the matter. i am curious to know if you thought all that up on your own or if you actually have taken part in deep discussions regarding the issue.

Don't encourage him!

i cant help it...moonbeam's posts intrigue me

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
moonbeam, that didnt answer my intial question, but wow did it give me a new outlook on the matter. i am curious to know if you thought all that up on your own or if you actually have taken part in deep discussions regarding the issue.

Don't encourage him!

i cant help it...moonbeam's posts intrigue me

I thought you said you've read P&N but not posted. Surely you would have known by now that moonie's pyschobabble is mainly pompus elitist BS...
He is the self appointed mirror bearer and has granted himself immunity from it's reflection.

I think some where in his mess was a point but it is wrapped in something steaming.
Maybe if I get back early tonight from celebrating the wife's birthday we'll disect, filter, and amend things for reality.

:beer:

CkG

 

[Perknose]

I can't help it, moonbeam's posts intrigue me, too. :moon:

But, hey, MrDudeMan, if you truly read P&N "all the time" as you say, you'd surely have more than a passing acquaintance with how "religion" has both suffused and complicated our specifically secular but deeply religious nation's political discourse since it's founding down unto today.

 

[Tripleshot]

Four words printed on money,the foundation of government, IN GOD WE TRUST.

Nuff said.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Tripleshot
Four words printed on money,the foundation of government, IN GOD WE TRUST.

Nuff said.

Hmm...1953 is the background of our politics?

Those words are only there because of the bigotry and narrow-mindedness of the McCarthy era.

 

[b0mbrman]

Uh...I'd say religion influences politics but only religion as a part of the whole lot of social norms. People in different parts of the world share the same religion and yet, interpret it differently based on what's convenient for whatever type of economy fits the land.

In short, I think how people practice religion and how they see politics have a relationship that is closer to being mutually supportive rather than one where the first only affects the second.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: Perknose
I can't help it, <STRONG>moonbeam's</STRONG> posts intrigue me, too. :moon:

But, hey, <STRONG>MrDudeMan</STRONG>, if you truly read P&N "all the time" as you say, you'd surely have more than a passing acquaintance with how "religion" has both suffused and complicated our specifically secular but deeply religious nation's political discourse since it's founding down unto today.

i thought you had something useful to say, but like most threads, you must put someone down to prove your point. thanks.

why must people insult others for no apparent reason? i am sorry if you took offense to me reading it "all the time" and not understanding exactly how religion influenced our government. really, take a breathe of fresh air and move on.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Uh...I'd say religion influences politics but only religion as a part of the whole lot of social norms. People in different parts of the world share the same religion and yet, interpret it differently based on what's convenient for whatever type of economy fits the land.

In short, I think how people practice religion and how they see politics have a relationship that is closer to being mutually supportive rather than one where the first only affects the second.

ok, now this makes sense to me. your religous background influences what you have to say and what moral issues you think are right and wrong. that would explain a lot of the laws which were founded in the early years of development in our country i think. whether or not that is correct is beyond me, but based on some of the interpretations in this thread, that is what i have come up with.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
moonbeam, that didnt answer my intial question, but wow did it give me a new outlook on the matter. i am curious to know if you thought all that up on your own or if you actually have taken part in deep discussions regarding the issue.

Don't encourage him!

i cant help it...moonbeam's posts intrigue me

I thought you said you've read P&N but not posted. Surely you would have known by now that moonie's pyschobabble is mainly pompus elitist BS...
He is the self appointed mirror bearer and has granted himself immunity from it's reflection.

I think some where in his mess was a point but it is wrapped in something steaming.
Maybe if I get back early tonight from celebrating the wife's birthday we'll disect, filter, and amend things for reality.

:beer:

CkG

As long as Caddy has brought up the subject of mirrors, I may as well explain that too:

The unconscious self hate that I spoke of surfaces in interesting ways. You can see it in expressions like, "Why does this always happen to me", or "Just my luck." The feeling of course is that we deserve the worst.

But another way that we see it is in the phenomenon of projection. Ancient maps of the world had distant seas filled with monsters and they are also under the bed. All these unknown places we populate with what's unknown in our heads, the traumatic experiences with monstrous adults that made us feel bad and put us through torture as bad as the concentration camps. The camps themselves are one result. That which we feel but can't allow into consciousness we project out onto the world. Armageddon is the end that happened when we were small. We fear it will happen again and do exactly that which will bring it about. We do that by projection out on the other the hate that we feel for ourself. We see then in the other the most deadly enemy, the one who hates us as great as is our hate. Since our hate is practically limitless it makes the other guy real bad. He's so bad in fact that we'd nuke him rather than let him win. But since he is us, we will all die in the end we were trying stop.

And this goes on every day in every imaginable way, this phenomenon of projection. We see in the other what we are hiding from ourselves:

"I thought you said you've read P&N but not posted. Surely you would have known by now that moonie's pyschobabble is mainly pompus elitist BS..."

Here Caddy tells us that he once felt proud of himself and felt he had something important to say but that in feeling that he was crushed and humiliated and told he was to be seen and not heard. Then along I come with something meaningful to say and immediately Caddy is thrown back into that experience. What, that asshole Moonbeam dares to express himself and get a complement. Why that steaming pile of crap, that never happened to me. Caddy sees in me the absence of the trauma he suffered so he nails me to his cross.

Of course, because I'm nothing, I'm hard to nail.

"He is the self appointed mirror bearer and has granted himself immunity from it's reflection."

I am you.

"I think some where in his mess was a point but it is wrapped in something steaming.
Maybe if I get back early tonight from celebrating the wife's birthday we'll disect, filter, and amend things for reality."

When Mulla Nasridin found an eagle that had been injured he took it home and trimmed it's beak, feathers, and claws. "There", he said, "now you look more like a parrot."

Edit: Also poor Caddy has just learned that he's a bigot and is still a little bit miffed. Yeah, he learned it from me.

 

[LunarRay]

Politics is not to do with religion, morality, civility or twinkies - it is all to do with power. Who has it and how is it to be used. A place populated by folks who are generally 'religious' and 'free' tend to establish a Political force based on what can get to the power. In a nation populated by 'free' one armed dwarfs.. the politics will be in deference to that condition. It is power and nothing more.
Freedom is the key, however. With out Freedom there is no politics just compliance with the most powerful faction.
The US has a myriad of religions so the politicians cater to the generic religion. Hoping not to offend too many voters. We put 'In God we Trust' on our currency... not out of respect for God but, rather, because at the time it must have garnered a few more votes.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Politics is not to do with religion, morality, civility or twinkies - it is all to do with power. Who has it and how is it to be used. A place populated by folks who are generally 'religious' and 'free' tend to establish a Political force based on what can get to the power. In a nation populated by 'free' one armed dwarfs.. the politics will be in deference to that condition. It is power and nothing more.
Freedom is the key, however. With out Freedom there is no politics just compliance with the most powerful faction.
The US has a myriad of religions so the politicians cater to the generic religion. Hoping not to offend too many voters. We put 'In God we Trust' on our currency... not out of respect for God but, rather, because at the time it must have garnered a few more votes.

What does it profit a man tha the gain the world and loose his imortal soul. Is it all to do with power, or what people think is power. What is power? Are we talking about The One Ring?

 

[BugsBunny1078]

God picks the leaders. We vote for them but God influences it. Our country also is Under God so we are here to serve Him. We all should remember that.
You dear reader may not believe in God but then again I may not believe in you. You may just be an internet worm programmed by some hacker kid to post your reply to me and then proceed attacking Microsoft's website.
=)

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
God picks the leaders. We vote for them but God influences it. Our country also is Under God so we are here to serve Him. We all should remember that.
You dear reader may not believe in God but then again I may not believe in you. You may just be an internet worm programmed by some hacker kid to post your reply to me and then proceed attacking Microsoft's website.
=)

Yup, that why the Devil had to step in last time in Florida and stop the count. God and Gore won, but the Devil, as usuall walked away with the prize. The Devil knew he had five souls on the Court.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
God picks the leaders. We vote for them but God influences it. Our country also is Under God so we are here to serve Him. We all should remember that.
You dear reader may not believe in God but then again I may not believe in you. You may just be an internet worm programmed by some hacker kid to post your reply to me and then proceed attacking Microsoft's website.
=)

Yup, that why the Devil had to step in last time in Florida and stop the count. God and Gore won, but the Devil, as usuall walked away with the prize. The Devil knew he had five souls on the Court.

Seven souls, moonbeam. The count was 7-2 to stop the recounts. Why must I keep correcting you on this? You want to take another trip to the woodshed, mister?

BTW, Bugs, how does God influence picking our leaders? That's contradictory to free will.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
God picks the leaders. We vote for them but God influences it. Our country also is Under God so we are here to serve Him. We all should remember that.
You dear reader may not believe in God but then again I may not believe in you. You may just be an internet worm programmed by some hacker kid to post your reply to me and then proceed attacking Microsoft's website.
=)

Yup, that why the Devil had to step in last time in Florida and stop the count. God and Gore won, but the Devil, as usuall walked away with the prize. The Devil knew he had five souls on the Court.

Seven souls, moonbeam. The count was 7-2 to stop the recounts. Why must I keep correcting you on this? You want to take another trip to the woodshed, mister?

BTW, Bugs, how does God influence picking our leaders? That's contradictory to free will.

You may know more about what the devil knows than I.

 

[conjur]

:evil: