How does having AGP versions of future cards (highend) harm the consumer?

[KoolHonda]

Originally posted by: trinibwoy
The people complaining are the ones with socket 754 A64 machines.

...and people like me with both A64 S754 and P4 S478 rigs.

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: KoolHonda

Originally posted by: trinibwoy
The people complaining are the ones with socket 754 A64 machines.

...and people like me with both A64 S754 and P4 S478 rigs.

Well Intel rigs don't reallly count so ......

 

[KoolHonda]

I'll stack mine up to anything AMD you could build for the same price at the time fanboy:laugh:

 

[fierydemise]

nVidia can help its bottomline by selling only PCI-E videocards, if someone wants a new highend videocard they need to buy a PCI-E card, and if they don't have one already they need to buy a new motherboard that supports PCI-E (nForce4). By selling only PCI-E videocards nVidia increases demand for PCI-E motherboards and nVidia already controls that market.

 

[KoolHonda]

Uhh, you must have forgotten about the tons of Intel i925 and i915 bots being cranked out by the OEMs Nvidia is no where near "controlling" the PCI-E mobo market.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Will manufacturers slapping a PCI-E to AGP bridge chip onto a card on a seperate line really going to increase your PCI-E prices or is there another reason?

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1622447&enterthread=y

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Inspector Jihad
yeah, agp is still very popular

Unfortunately.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1623422&enterthread=y

Originally posted by: Genx87
AGP is legacy and should be let die a quiet death.

Originally posted by: southpawuni
Quit trying to hold back progress for the rest of us who keep up with technology.

It should really only cost the people that are using AGP extra money, for they will pay for the bridge. 2 Product lines will exist but the AGP users will more than likely pick up the cost. Some people still have Socket 940 systems and switching to PCI-E would mean throwing away their CPUs, Motherboard, and ram. The nforce3 Ultra platform is AGP and runs the same CPUs as the nforce4 Motherboards, some people also dont want to go thru the hassle of buying and installing an new motherboard when there is nothing wrong with their current one. The people on the Socket 754 can still have fast CPUs but they will have to throw away their CPU in order to purchase future PCI-E only video cards. I also fail to see how a video card with a PCI-E to AGP bridge "holds back progress" for the people who own PCI-E motherboards.

Please explain how legacy support of AGP for another couple of years will harm the consumer.

Allowing newer cards to support AGP (through a bridge) has no disadvantages at all that I can see. I still hope they don't do it. Suck it up and get a new motherboard.

 

[R3MF]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Smooth317
To summarize, if you're buying a new high-end video card to improve performance, 9 times out of 10 you're going to need to upgrade the rest of your system, otherwise the gains from the video card upgrade are bottlenecked.

My nforce3 Ultra socket 939 runs the same CPUs as the nForce4 boards. But more importantly, think about all the poor people that bought high end Socket 940 CPUs that will be forced to not only buy a new motherboard/cpu but also new ram, and those CPUs are still pretty damn good.

they made there choices.

 

[cbehnken]

Sell your own board and get a new one. Probably cost less than $75.00. What's the big deal? If you already have a decent power supply the 24 pin adapters work fine. I can't believe anyone would want to buy an AGP 7800. Sounds like a bad investment, even as video cards go. It's unlikely you'll be able to buy the next gen sockets in AGP and you'll be stuck with the CPUs you have.

 

[KoolHonda]

Originally posted by: cbehnken
Sell your own board and get a new one. Probably cost less than $75.00. What's the big deal? If you already have a decent power supply the 24 pin adapters work fine. I can't believe anyone would want to buy an AGP 7800. Sounds like a bad investment, even as video cards go. It's unlikely you'll be able to buy the next gen sockets in AGP and you'll be stuck with the CPUs you have.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It would cost me alot more than that to go PCI-E, and would offer little benefit other than a faster video card. I'm perfectly happy with my present CPU's When dual cores and 64 bits yadda yadda hit the mainstream, I'll be happy to upgrade. But for now, I see no reason other than NV and ATI saying I must because they can't be bothered to make cards for my rigs.

 

[imported_TheRipper]

I stated this in the petition thread but I'll do it again. Nvidia will need a push most likely from ATI to do any AGP this new generation. Nvidia sells nforce chipsets and if they can sell you a board and a card that is what they are going to do.

ATI on the other hand has very few chipsets out there and the new cross fire isn't going to be any where near mainstream for a long time. ATI wants money, ATI will do the AGP version of r520 forcing Nvidia's hand. This will be the last generation of AGP but it is going to happen. Personally, I will most likely buy a PCIE board if I decide to upgrade my card. After a $600 card the $100 for a board isn't going to hurt much more.

I think I am still going to sit and wait, 939 is going down in favor of new tech before too long and I need to get my use out of this machine.

 

[cbehnken]

Originally posted by: KoolHonda

Originally posted by: cbehnken
Sell your own board and get a new one. Probably cost less than $75.00. What's the big deal? If you already have a decent power supply the 24 pin adapters work fine. I can't believe anyone would want to buy an AGP 7800. Sounds like a bad investment, even as video cards go. It's unlikely you'll be able to buy the next gen sockets in AGP and you'll be stuck with the CPUs you have.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It would cost me alot more than that to go PCI-E, and would offer little benefit other than a faster video card. I'm perfectly happy with my present CPU's When dual cores and 64 bits yadda yadda hit the mainstream, I'll be happy to upgrade. But for now, I see no reason other than NV and ATI saying I must because they can't be bothered to make cards for my rigs.

If you are happy with your system why would you even bother contributing to this thread at all? You won't be in the market for ANY kind of 7800

 

[KoolHonda]

Because I'd be even happier with it if I could add 7800 to help prolong it's lifespan. I'm not in the market for one today, but in 6 months to a year I would be feeling the upgrade itch if such a part at a more reasonable price was available to me.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Well, if motherboards are going to hold onto AGP as long as they are the freakin' Serial/Parallel ports, then AGP isn't going anywhere for a LONG ASS time.

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: Rock Hydra
Well, if motherboards are going to hold onto AGP as long as they are the freakin' Serial/Parallel ports, then AGP isn't going anywhere for a LONG ASS time.

Ports do not require an either/or choice like the graphics bus. Personally, side-grading to PCIe would require a diff'rent mobo, CPU, and RAM and that's a lot o' hassle and possible expense for nuffing. Sure, it would allow for upgrading the viddy card for awhile but may be effectively dead-ended by a socket change that would make doing so pointless anyway. Plus, there is more new or updated schtuff in the pipe than usual that will be more beneficial a couple years out (who wants half-assed first gen junk anway?).

So I am quite content with AGP 'till then at least. Since ATI is planning on AGP for their next generation I'm sure something like that will do the trick. I can't see NVIDIA ceding all that bidness.

As far as not recommending AGP... the fastest compatible parts often retain their value relatively well after being discontinued. Fast PCI viddy cards command a premium and CPU's for previous sockets do too.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: R3MF

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Smooth317
To summarize, if you're buying a new high-end video card to improve performance, 9 times out of 10 you're going to need to upgrade the rest of your system, otherwise the gains from the video card upgrade are bottlenecked.

My nforce3 Ultra socket 939 runs the same CPUs as the nForce4 boards. But more importantly, think about all the poor people that bought high end Socket 940 CPUs that will be forced to not only buy a new motherboard/cpu but also new ram, and those CPUs are still pretty damn good.

they made there choices.

Agreed... I don't have any tears to shed for "all the poor people" who bought a first gen Athlon64 FX, they can afford to buy new gear. Besides, the nForce Pro chipset supports socket 940 w/ PCI-E (SLI as well) in both single and dual cpu configuratons. Tyan makes a number of these boards and Asus makes one that supports 2 Opterons and a single PEG slot.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Originally posted by: Auric

Originally posted by: Rock Hydra
Well, if motherboards are going to hold onto AGP as long as they are the freakin' Serial/Parallel ports, then AGP isn't going anywhere for a LONG ASS time.

Ports do not require an either/or choice like the graphics bus. Personally, side-grading to PCIe would require a diff'rent mobo, CPU, and RAM and that's a lot o' hassle and possible expense for nuffing. Sure, it would allow for upgrading the viddy card for awhile but may be effectively dead-ended by a socket change that would make doing so pointless anyway. Plus, there is more new or updated schtuff in the pipe than usual that will be more beneficial a couple years out (who wants half-assed first gen junk anway?).

So I am quite content with AGP 'till then at least. Since ATI is planning on AGP for their next generation I'm sure something like that will do the trick. I can't see NVIDIA ceding all that bidness.

As far as not recommending AGP... the fastest compatible parts often retain their value relatively well after being discontinued. Fast PCI viddy cards command a premium and CPU's for previous sockets do too.

Very informative, but what I meant by that was...Parallel/serial have been unnecessary for quite some time, yet you still find them on montherboards. It won't fail that when AGP has passed its life cycle, there will still be boards made with AGP.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: KoolHonda

Originally posted by: cbehnken
Sell your own board and get a new one. Probably cost less than $75.00. What's the big deal? If you already have a decent power supply the 24 pin adapters work fine. I can't believe anyone would want to buy an AGP 7800. Sounds like a bad investment, even as video cards go. It's unlikely you'll be able to buy the next gen sockets in AGP and you'll be stuck with the CPUs you have.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. It would cost me alot more than that to go PCI-E, and would offer little benefit other than a faster video card. I'm perfectly happy with my present CPU's When dual cores and 64 bits yadda yadda hit the mainstream, I'll be happy to upgrade. But for now, I see no reason other than NV and ATI saying I must because they can't be bothered to make cards for my rigs.

gee...this mobo right here for your first rig:

$99.00 - Albatron PX915P4C Pro Socket 478 Intel 915P ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

second one:

$72.00 - MSI K8N NEO3-F Socket 754 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

well the third one's a notebook isn't it?

i don't know what your definition of 'cost a lot' is...but it's not the same as mine. if you don't like those brands you can probably find others also...just need to do some research. you don't have to upgrade your P4 to Prescott and DDR2 to get PCI-E.

 

[Auric]

Originally posted by: Rock Hydra

Very informative, but what I meant by that was...Parallel/serial have been unnecessary for quite some time, yet you still find them on montherboards. It won't fail that when AGP has passed its life cycle, there will still be boards made with AGP.

Prolly... I wouldn't be surprised if new mobos continue to be made if a buck can be saved whether by design or by using up cheaper inventory of parts.

I, for one, use parallel for an olde but reliable printer, serial for an IR remote control, PS/2 for keyboard and meeces and gameport for... you guessed it, a game controller! I'm not really keen on a bunch of un-universal ports but I have these peripherals I like and host-based USB is for chumps!

 

[KoolHonda]

Thanks for the effort xtknight, but I know about those routes and I just don't see them being worth the trouble just for a new video card. I mean my rigs are fast and stable as they are now. Why would I want to risk using mobos that are "jury rigged" to mix the old and the new tech when all they have to do is put out a AGP verision of the card. And even if I did go though the hassle of what your proposing, I'd still have the same performance(+/-5%) of my current systems other than the GPU factor unless I spent gobs of cash on a new CPU.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
nVdia already have their bridge (unlike ATi's Rialto it can convert both ways) and they put it to devastatingly good effect (from ATi's point of view, being stuck on PCI-E only) with the 6800/6600 series.

I'm not sure if they can use the same one for next generation?

There is nothing stopping the bridge chips use for future chips. The chip is a bus translator, and both the PCI-E bus and AGP bus are well defined.

The same bridge chip was initially used to enable AGP native GeForceFX GPU's to work on PCI-E.

Of course, a vindicative person would be very tempted to link to a couple of Beyond3D threads where nVidia, the bridge chip and their general PCI-E technology was made fun of and generally condemned, while ATi's PCI-E efforts were praised up, but I'll just let history speak for itself...

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
nVdia already have their bridge (unlike ATi's Rialto it can convert both ways) and they put it to devastatingly good effect (from ATi's point of view, being stuck on PCI-E only) with the 6800/6600 series.

I'm not sure if they can use the same one for next generation?

There is nothing stopping the bridge chips use for future chips. The chip is a bus translator, and both the PCI-E bus and AGP bus are well defined.

The same bridge chip was initially used to enable AGP native GeForceFX GPU's to work on PCI-E.

Of course, a vindicative person would be very tempted to link to a couple of Beyond3D threads where nVidia, the bridge chip and their general PCI-E technology was made fun of and generally condemned, while ATi's PCI-E efforts were praised up, but I'll just let history speak for itself...

Which side did ATI take again during the native versus bridge wars? Iirc their had a very confusing stance.....

 

[angryswede]

AGP and PCIe will coexist for sometime just like PCI and AGP, because AGP doesn't yield any real performance gains yet because the 8x link isn't saturated yet. As soon as it is, bye bye AGP.

 

[gunblade]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor


Of course, a vindicative person would be very tempted to link to a couple of Beyond3D threads where nVidia, the bridge chip and their general PCI-E technology was made fun of and generally condemned, while ATi's PCI-E efforts were praised up, but I'll just let history speak for itself...

Actually, it is very tough to say whose decision is better than the other. There isn't a knock out. Their respective decision helped shaping up where they are today.

Ati's native solution had brought them all of the OEM design wins that had helped them stay a float in the difficult times now and were the major contributing reason that they were still in the lead in the term of market share.

Nvidia's bridge chip solution were superbly executed and brought them most of the AGP retail market when Ati failed to deliver their bridge chip in a timely manner. The bridge solution was a no issue for the retail market. Nvidia managed to heal their reputation and crawled back to the top. The relatively slow upload performance wasn't an issue on the first gen PCI-E card. The lack of applications that make use of the extra bandwidth helps to justify the choice they made. It is everyone's guess that whether nvidia had forseen all of these and thus choosing bridge-first-native-later solution. However, their lack of native parts also cost them a bunch of design win in the system builder OEM channel. Of course, one can argue that it is because of the lackluster performance of the FX, but it is blatantly clear that native solution flies with OEM sale.

 

[Creig]

People can say "Let's push AGP out the door!" all they want, but the reality is that it's going to be around for awhile yet. People were saying that within four months, AGP would be dead and yet here we are a year later with next generation AGP cards set to be released.

 

[UltraWide]

Keeping 2 product lines costs more money, it also costs capacity at the plant, it takes away volume from PCIe cards since they have to use the same chips. Basically they need to keep 2 copies of essentially the same thing. So, in the end it drives up costs for EVERYONE. It's good they will slowly "phase out" AGP.