How does having AGP versions of future cards (highend) harm the consumer?

[Schadenfroh]

Will manufacturers slapping a PCI-E to AGP bridge chip onto a card on a seperate line really going to increase your PCI-E prices or is there another reason?

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1622447&enterthread=y

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Inspector Jihad
yeah, agp is still very popular

Unfortunately.

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1623422&enterthread=y

Originally posted by: Genx87
AGP is legacy and should be let die a quiet death.

Originally posted by: southpawuni
Quit trying to hold back progress for the rest of us who keep up with technology.

It should really only cost the people that are using AGP extra money, for they will pay for the bridge. 2 Product lines will exist but the AGP users will more than likely pick up the cost. Some people still have Socket 940 systems and switching to PCI-E would mean throwing away their CPUs, Motherboard, and ram. The nforce3 Ultra platform is AGP and runs the same CPUs as the nforce4 Motherboards, some people also dont want to go thru the hassle of buying and installing an new motherboard when there is nothing wrong with their current one. The people on the Socket 754 can still have fast CPUs but they will have to throw away their CPU in order to purchase future PCI-E only video cards. I also fail to see how a video card with a PCI-E to AGP bridge "holds back progress" for the people who own PCI-E motherboards.

Please explain how legacy support of AGP for another couple of years will harm the consumer.

 

[imported_humey]

It dont harm to have AGP, same as they n00bs would be pissed if i told them i ran SATA for nearly 2 years and they should all drop PATA and buy new mobos and HDD's.

For the users on older rigs that are upgrading its ok to go pci-e as its only way, but for us who upgraded last year with N40 as new with major hardware costs, we cant write this of to get new mobo/cpu PSU ATX 2.0 and possibly ram in many cases.

There is gonna be agp cards hitting after so dont worry (remember ive already been asked to accept a 7800GTX for my 6800U and since my card is AGP, Nvidia/Chaintech know i need AGP replacement, cause ive clearly stated it). its just when they arrives thats not to clear, and if Nvidia didnt make AGP, ATI would and steal sales and customers, and same goes for vice versa.

 

[xtknight]

NVIDIA could spend the time making an AGP bridge making their next-gen instead. I have no clue how long it takes to make an AGP bridge though. When I read news about ATI's Rialto bridge they made it seem like it was a big project...

$72.00 - MSI K8N NEO3-F Socket 754 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

$78.00 - CHAINTECH VNF4 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

PCIe motherboards are dirt cheap...yes...they used to cost $300. Not anymore...so I fail to see what the big deal is. Eventually you'll have to do it, unless you want to be left in the middle ages. I'm glad I did it last year. Isn't the 7800 just beginning to break the AGP barrier?

Though, I agree NVIDIA would suffer a loss without AGP for at least this generation. I did send that AGP petition e-mail to NVIDIA, eVGA, etc.

AFAIK, if you have a Pentium 4, Intel makes you get the new Prescott CPUs because they're the only ones that fit in to their PCIe motherboards. Not sure about foreign P4 chipsets. (Edit: not true. there are some S478/DDR 915 motherboards.)

Overall I'm fairly neutral about this issue. I want AGPers to upgrade but I don't want them to be left in the dark this time around.

 

[Mrvile]

I didn't read any of the two posts above me btw.

But here are my thoughts:

Although AGP is still popular, it definately isn't a must. The whole new NF4 craze is purely PCI-e, and has nothing to do with AGP. Also I don't understand the quote, "Quit trying to hold back progress for the rest of us who keep up with technology." You aren't forced to use AGP, in fact, PCI-e is quickly becoming the new standard anyway. The high end AGP cards that are out are purely for those of us that still use AGP motherboards (which they aren't manufactoring new chipsets for anyway), and those of you that don't want AGP, you don't have to use it. PCI-e motherboards are much cheaper now, even cheaper than a lot of AGP motherboards, and even PCI-e video cards are cheaper than some AGP video cards (ahem X800XL, ahem 6600GT). So I don't see what the big fuss is.

But I think that the consumers themselves should be wary of buying the latest and greatest 600 dollar video card in AGP. When it's time for an upgrade, they should be upgrading the whole motherboard/video card combo to be safe, instead of just the video card itself.

 

[rise]

i dunno, i had the 6600gt which was bridged to agp and frankly, i gotta wonder how easy it is to implement that.

i'm no engineer but it seemed like it just barely worked. they had to offset the core on the pcb somewhat and squeeze that bridge on there. the vf700 hung off the edge of the card by about 1-1/4"

the hsf, from evga anyway, was skewed on there so that the rams were either completely or partlally exposed. temps were ridiculous.

maybe it was just evgas solution but it seems to me bridges just aren't going to work or are too cost prohibitive.

 

[StrangerGuy]

The average consumer doesn't know what a video card is anyway, let alone the differences between AGP and PCI-E.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Because we're trying to push PCI-e. New cards EXCLUSIVE to PCI-e ENCOURAGES consumers to purchase new technology. They aren't forced to do so, however if they want 7800+ performance they need to buy PCI-e, which is for the future, not AGP. By giving in and giving the customers what they think they want, we delay advancement. The longer we hold off PCI-e, the longer it takes for other BETTER PCI-e products to trickle down into the market including sound and RAID cards - even PPUs: a better overall computing experience is delayed.

 

[PhlashFoto]

I'll upgrade to PCI-e when the whole system needs to be updated, not just for one part.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: xtknight
NVIDIA could spend the time making an AGP bridge making their next-gen instead. I have no clue how long it takes to make an AGP bridge though. When I read news about ATI's Rialto bridge they made it seem like it was a big project...

$72.00 - MSI K8N NEO3-F Socket 754 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

$78.00 - CHAINTECH VNF4 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

PCIe motherboards are dirt cheap...yes...they used to cost $300. Not anymore...so I fail to see what the big deal is. Eventually you'll have to do it, unless you want to be left in the middle ages. I'm glad I did it last year. Isn't the 7800 just beginning to break the AGP barrier?

Though, I agree NVIDIA would suffer a loss without AGP for at least this generation. I did send that AGP petition e-mail to NVIDIA, eVGA, etc.

AFAIK, if you have a Pentium 4, Intel makes you get the new Prescott CPUs because they're the only ones that fit in to their PCIe motherboards. Not sure about foreign P4 chipsets.

Overall I'm fairly neutral about this issue. I want AGPers to upgrade but I don't want them to be left in the dark this time around.

nVdia already have their bridge (unlike ATi's Rialto it can convert both ways) and they put it to devastatingly good effect (from ATi's point of view, being stuck on PCI-E only) with the 6800/6600 series.

 

[KoolHonda]

Originally posted by: ELopes580
I'll upgrade to PCI-e when the whole system needs to be updated, not just for one part.

Ditto.

 

[Elcs]

For users with an AGP board and a suitably powerful system... PCI-E is a wasteful upgrade.

If you have an S939 board and processor, you dont exactly want to throw away that board just so you can get a high-end graphics card. ie. the 7800's. In this case, most people would want an AGP 7800 rather than PCI-E because the rest of their machine is sufficient to say "I dont need to upgrade that, I only need a graphics card".

In my position, I have a Socket A Platform and a Radeon 9800 Pro. Im not upgrading because I dont feel the need. Im happy with my systems performance with current games that I play. Also, my 17" LCD holds me down with resolutions. With my case, I doubt that buying an AGP card would provide me with a worthwhile boost. Surely a 6800GT would be severely held back by most Socket A processors. In this case, its probably better to invest in a totally new platform. NForce 4, S939, pci-e.

With the fact that NForce 3 boards, socket 939 and AGP.... people can have powerful systems. Most of them will accept the best S939 has to offer currently and for the forseeable future of the socket. I dont see why they should be penalised by being restricted by ATI/Nvidia by PCI-E only, high-end offerings.

Comparing the processing power of a NForce3 board with an NForce4 board, they'd be pretty close. The only tangible gaming difference would be the slot type.

 

[imported_humey]

Hey n00bs that say a new pci-e mobo aint costly, you forget about a new psu atx 2.0 and a amd 64cpu if your not on it now in pin 939 and possibly new ram.

There thats the price of the 7800GTX pci-e doubled just to get parts to run with it.

Oh wait a minute you want to buy some cheap crap[ psu at 350watts and some crap ram ok, you wont run the 7800GTX on it never mind 2 in SLI and your ram wont be much good for more then 200/400 HT(old fsb) and the NF4 mobos esp DFI can hit at least 250/500mhz HT.

If your gonna do it do it right and not by half mesures and its still gonna be to much for someone not to well of who sepnt a lot of cash only 1 year ago putting together a new rig with a agp 6800U.

 

[Bateluer]

Do you want another long drawn out change over, IE from ISA to PCI?

The current fastest AGP cards, the 6800U and X850 XTPE cards are still blazing fast and will easily hold most users for another year at least. By that point in time, you will want to upgrade more than just your videocard.

Don't prolong AGP, let it die a dignified death. It may hurt a little in the short term, but PCIe is a far better designed interface.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Do you want another long drawn out change over, IE from ISA to PCI?

The current fastest AGP cards, the 6800U and X850 XTPE cards are still blazing fast and will easily hold most users for another year at least. By that point in time, you will want to upgrade more than just your videocard.

Don't prolong AGP, let it die a dignified death. It may hurt a little in the short term, but PCIe is a far better designed interface.

We already have a long drawn out change over.
There are very few PCIe add in cards other than graphics which I have seen.
The new PPU's are going to be PCI and not PCI when released, IIRC, sound cards are still pretty much totally PCI.
For waht, other than graphics cards, is PCIe used for at the moment?
We don't even NEED it for graphics cards yet, AGP 8x is fine in terms of transfer (and both have power issues, neither supplies enough power for the top end cards), so tell me, how is a long drawn out change hurting?
We don't need the change yet, and most hardware suppliers (ie: everyone who doesn't do graphics cards) are still making PCI equipment, not PCIe.

Sure, make the products and they will come, but apart from GFX cards, no one is, so tell me which I should go for a PCIe mobo with say 3 PCI slots (ie: 3 usable slots) when I can get an AGP board and have 5 slots (PPU, sound card, RAID card, TV card), rather than finding I don't have enough slots for all my cards.

 

[Smooth317]

Pretty soon, to buy a motherboard with an AGP slot on it will mean you're also going with older socket generations which means you're going with a slow processor by today's standards. Basically, by the time you're ready to upgrade to your next graphics card, if you don't upgrade the rest of the system as well, buying a new graphics card will be bottlenecked by a slow processor, memory and motherboard.

I'm in the same boat right now. I have a decent system I'd like to upgrade (3.0E w/ HT, 2GB Corsair XMS DDR400, X800Pro AGP, SB Audigy 2, WD 7200rpm 80GB HD / 160GB USB HD). However, since I want to upgrade to a PCI-e video card, I'm going to have to replace the motherboard, processor and video card. Pretty pricey when all I really need is a new video card.

However, upgrading my processor and motherboard will keep my system on par with the video card I'll be dropping into it. To upgrade just the video card would be somewhat of a waste as the processor would hold it back. I'm looking at going AMD with an X2 4400+ but waiting to see how the ATI R520 line will turn out before I do so in case I want a Crossfire capable motherboard.

To summarize, if you're buying a new high-end video card to improve performance, 9 times out of 10 you're going to need to upgrade the rest of your system, otherwise the gains from the video card upgrade are bottlenecked.

You may be a rare case where this isn't true, but most people who aren't interested in high-end cards due to financial reasons can still pick up a low to mid range AGP video card as they're still easy to get ahold of. The newest $600 cards are the only ones PCI-e only.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: xtknight
NVIDIA could spend the time making an AGP bridge making their next-gen instead. I have no clue how long it takes to make an AGP bridge though. When I read news about ATI's Rialto bridge they made it seem like it was a big project...

$72.00 - MSI K8N NEO3-F Socket 754 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

$78.00 - CHAINTECH VNF4 Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail

PCIe motherboards are dirt cheap...yes...they used to cost $300. Not anymore...so I fail to see what the big deal is. Eventually you'll have to do it, unless you want to be left in the middle ages. I'm glad I did it last year. Isn't the 7800 just beginning to break the AGP barrier?

Though, I agree NVIDIA would suffer a loss without AGP for at least this generation. I did send that AGP petition e-mail to NVIDIA, eVGA, etc.

AFAIK, if you have a Pentium 4, Intel makes you get the new Prescott CPUs because they're the only ones that fit in to their PCIe motherboards. Not sure about foreign P4 chipsets.

Overall I'm fairly neutral about this issue. I want AGPers to upgrade but I don't want them to be left in the dark this time around.

Any motherboard options for Socket 478? Or Socket A? I know their outdated, but still out there en masse.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Any motherboard options for Socket 478? Or Socket A? I know their outdated, but still out there en masse.

Albatron has a i915 chipset one and possibly other manufacturers as well.

Albatron PX915P4C Pro Socket 478 Intel 915P ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

That's the only thing I could turn up on Newegg for 478.

For Socket A (462):
> Computer Hardware > Motherboards > AMD-compatible Motherboards > CPU Socket Type[Socket A (Socket 462)], PCI Express x16[1],

We have found 0 items that match your search criteria.

Can't say I'm surprised. The latest chipset for that was the nForce2 or was it something else...?

Socket A is starting to show its age, whereas there's still millions of people with Pentium 4 (S478) Dells. At least back then, I think there were hardly any OEMs who adopted AMD's processors except for HP. Most of the enthusiasts that had it probably upgraded by now anyway. Yes occasionally I do see Athlon XPs and especially for overclockers the mobile variant of them so they aren't absolutely ancient. I can't imagine there's a whole lot of them left though.

Edit: Oops, searching for Socket A in the Intel motherboards section isn't the best idea. Fixed now.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
nVdia already have their bridge (unlike ATi's Rialto it can convert both ways) and they put it to devastatingly good effect (from ATi's point of view, being stuck on PCI-E only) with the 6800/6600 series.

I'm not sure if they can use the same one for next generation?

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Smooth317
To summarize, if you're buying a new high-end video card to improve performance, 9 times out of 10 you're going to need to upgrade the rest of your system, otherwise the gains from the video card upgrade are bottlenecked.

My nforce3 Ultra socket 939 runs the same CPUs as the nForce4 boards. But more importantly, think about all the poor people that bought high end Socket 940 CPUs that will be forced to not only buy a new motherboard/cpu but also new ram, and those CPUs are still pretty damn good.

 

[trinibwoy]

It's not about harm to the customer. Do you really think these IHV's want to keep supporting two different interfaces for their products. Of course they will want to get rid of AGP as soon as possible but they'll cater to the AGP crowd as long as there is a significant market. I wouldn't be surprised to see them offering AGP only on the lower end cards. The few people who want the high-end on AGP can either upgrade or do without but I'm sure if there is enough demand we will see AGP versions of the high-end SKU's as well.

 

[T9D]

I have a socket 478 intel.

A 3.4 ghz is the highest it goes. That's still plenty fast enough to not have to upgrade my entire system just because I would want a new videocard. I think the 7800 cards should be the last cards to support AGP (and the new ATI cards). There are still plenty of AGP boards out there that have fast enough processors for these cards. I can understand in the next generation when they are to much of a bottelneck and it would be time to upgrade the CPU to so it's not too. But for now it's still very feasable to have the new cards on AGP. It's not holding back progress. We'll all change in the very near future. We just dont want to throw away money right now.

 

[nRollo]

I don't get what all the furor is about anyway- AFAIK it's only the 7800GTX that doesn't have AGP, and how many Athlon XP users want to spend $600 on a video card their cpu doesn't have the cajones to push anyway?

 

[trinibwoy]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I don't get what all the furor is about anyway- AFAIK it's only the 7800GTX that doesn't have AGP, and how many Athlon XP users want to spend $600 on a video card their cpu doesn't have the cajones to push anyway?

The people complaining are the ones with socket 754 A64 machines.

 

[imported_TheRipper]

The people complaining are the ones with socket 754 A64 machines.

Not really, I have a 939 AGP board but having said that I don't care if they make an AGP version or not.

If I am going to spend $500-$600 for a video card I'll pay an extra $100 and buy a board. I don't plan on upgrading for at least 1 year, maybe 2 at the longest. I am not hurting but by the time 2 years is up I will be I figure.

I would most likely buy a vid card if it were available but I'll not toss my system for a card upgrade. The system is still strong. Oh well, I won't have any 3DMark bragging rights if they don't let me buy an AGP card. I think I'll go to my room and cry.

My wife would cry louder if I were to dump my system for a vid card though.

AMD 3700+SD @ 2816
Asus A8V-deluxe
BFG6800GT OC @ 424/1150
Antec true 430
2x512 Corsair XMS 3200

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
Do you want another long drawn out change over, IE from ISA to PCI?

How is the transition from IDE to SATA going? IDE to SATA offers about the same performance increase as going from AGP to PCI-E. It is the new standard also, but no one seems to want to force IDE to go away.