How does faster upload/download speeds translate into lower ping??

krazykilroy

Member
Aug 14, 2001
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0
I have a cable provided internet, with up/down of 35/101. I am thinking of changing to FiOS with their package of 150/150.

I've never been displeased with my cable package, but if I can get a lower ping, which will allow me to play on servers further away from me, I would love it.

Someone explain to me if these speeds actually make it possible to get lower pings. Thank you in advance
 

Worthington

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2005
1,433
17
81
It doesn't. As long as you aren't already saturating your bandwidth adding more won't do anything for your latency.
Now it *is* still possible that you'd get better pings with FIOS vs your cable but that's not a function of bandwidth and more that they have either less (or better) equipment between you and the backbone and/or their network is just better routed so there is less wasted time.
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,471
32
91
It doesn't. As long as you aren't already saturating your bandwidth adding more won't do anything for your latency.
Now it *is* still possible that you'd get better pings with FIOS vs your cable but that's not a function of bandwidth and more that they have either less (or better) equipment between you and the backbone and/or their network is just better routed so there is less wasted time.



then why are my pings consistently and measurably higher when I am downloading stuff while playing? and then when the dl stops my ping goes back to normal.
 

Worthington

Golden Member
Apr 29, 2005
1,433
17
81
Could be any number of reasons.. 1. You are in fact saturating your bandwidth when you are downloading. 2. The extra cpu cycles required to monitor and maintain your download is effecting your gaming, etc etc. Like I said, could be a lot of things.

Adding bandwidth is like adding more lanes to a road. Unless there was already congestion you aren't going to get where you are going any faster.
 

mnewsham

Lifer
Oct 2, 2010
14,539
428
136
I currently have FiOS 75/75 and I see speeds of 80/90 (decent bit faster than what I pay for)

Ping is always low when i play CSGO, but that's server dependant. It can change depending on where I am connecting to. Just because I have a fast download or upload, doesn't mean I can magically connect any better to these servers. I have to go through several layers of backbown my own ISP doesn't have control over before I reach a server sometimes, this can add a decent bit of latency that has nothing to do with my connection (it has to do with the internet backbone routing).

Basically, if FiOS has better routing in your area (possible as comcast sucks around here but FiOS is pretty damn good) then it could be a decent upgrade for you, but the speed increase alone wont increase your ping particularly.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Yep, bandwidth in itself isn't going to affect ping. More than likely you are dealing with a computer bottleneck if you are doing heavy downloading on the same machine while trying to also do online gaming.
 

balloonshark

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2008
6,317
2,718
136
Pings are related to your distance/routing to a server. If we were neighbors and I had a 3/1 connection and you had a 50/5 connection and the game didn't saturate my connection our pings would be identical.

Higher speeds means more bandwidth which means faster downloads. This benefits you if you download a lot of large files or if you have more than one person, program or device connected. Nothing really can change your ping unless you figured out how to go faster than the speed of light.

Maybe FIOS would give you a little bit of an advantage but whether or not it's worth the premium price just for slightly better gaming pings is subjective.

P.S. I'm far from an expert. I would be interested in knowing how much better your ping would be with FIOS. I'm pretty sure my cable ends up on a fiber line at some point so I guess were talking about the difference between copper from my home to fiber versus a straight fiber line. I'm guessing the benefit it's pretty negligible unless FIOS get priority routing.
 

Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
203
106
More bandwidth does lower pings. But it depends. At very low speeds, a speed increase will have a noticable impact. But once you go over 1 Mbps speeds, the improvements will be so low, you won't notice it.

Round Trip Times (RTT, aka ping) consists of 3 things.
1) Transmission delay
2) Propagation delay
3) Buffer times on routers

*) Propagation delay is caused by the slow Speed of Light. Suppose you are on the east coast of the US. Suppose you send a packet to a server on the West Coast. What are the delays ? Well, the packet has to travel ~4700km (=3k miles) to go from NYC to SF. Suppose there is a fiber cable in a straight line. Speed of Light through fiber is 0.6 the Speed of Light through a vacuum. SoL = 300k km/sec = 300km/millisecond. Through fiber that is 180 km/millisecond. When a packet has to travel 4700km, that means it will take *at least* 26 milliseconds to get there. Now ping = Round Trip Time. So we need add the time for the packet to come back. Another 26 ms. Total RTT NYC to SF will be at least 52 milliseconds.

There is nothing in this Universe that can make that go quicker. Absolutely nothing. Unless you know of ways to mess with Einstein's theories.

*) Then there is transmission delay.
When your PC sends a packet, it sends it bit by bit. The other side (your home router) receives the packet bit by bit. It will not forward the packet over its cable connection, unless it has received the full packet. Only when it has received the last bit from your PC, it will start transmitting that packet to the next hop. There the same will happen. Your ISP's cable router will not start forwarding the packet until it has received the last bit for your home router.

The problem is on the slow links. Let's suppose you don't have a cable-connection. Let's suppose you have an old-fashioned 56Kbps modem. Let's suppose the upstream speed is also 56Kbps.

Let's suppose your game wants to send 100 bytes of game data. That gets encapsulated (20 bytes IP header, 8 bytes UDP header, 8 bytes PPP header). Total 136 bytes. Your link can send 56Kbps = 7000 bytes per second. That's 7 bytes per millisecond. To send your packet of 136 bytes, it takes 20 milliseconds. Now let's suppose the server sends back also a 100 byte packet. That's another 20 milliseconds. Your ping at that moment is increased by 40 milliseconds, just because you play on a slow line.

Let's assume you get ADSL. 1 Mbps down, 250 Kbps up. Downstream = 1000 Kbps = 128000 bytes/second. Take into account ADSL loses ~10% of it's bandwidth in overhead. Raw downstream bandwidth available = 116 bytes/millisecond. The packet from the server to your PC takes roughly 1 millisecond to be transmitted between the first bit and the last bit. Upstream is 4 times slower. So the packet from your PC to the server takes about 4 milliseconds to be transmitted. Total delay 1 + 4 = 5 milliseconds.

Result: going from a 56Kbps modem to a 1Mbps ADSL line will improve your ping by 35 milliseconds ! (When the average packetsize is 100 bytes in both directions).

Now let's assume you go from your ADSL link to a cable service. With 10 Mbps downstream and 10 Mbps upstream speeds. Let's assume cable also has a 10% overhead (which I think it has).

Downstream speed is 10x faster than ADSL. Transmission time of a 100byte packet goes from 1 millisecond to 0.1 millisecond. Upstream speed is 40x faster. Transmission time for a 100 byte packet goes from 4 milliseconds to 0.1 millisecond. Total ping reduction: from 5 milliseconds to 0.2 milliseconds.

So when you have a 10/10Mbps internet connection, the transmission times of your local connection have only a miniscule impact on ping times, compared to propagation delays.

Now suppose we go from 10/10 Mbps to 100/100 Mbps. That number of 0.2 milliseconds in your ping now goes to 0.02 milliseconds. On a total of 10-50ms of average ping to average servers, that doesn't mean a thing.

Conculsion: going from a 56Kbps to low speed ADSL/Cable makes a huge difference in ping times. Going from low speed ADSL/Cable to "normal" high-speed Internet gives a much smaller improvement. But it might be noticable. Going from normal high-speed Internet to very fast Internet does nothing for your ping times.

===
Why does your ping increase when you download stuff ?
Any link in the Internet can transmit only one packet at a time. What happens when a packet is being transmitted, and another packet already arrives to be sent over that same outgoing link ? That packet needs to wait. Routers have queues for packets to wait, until it is their turn to be transmitted. Usually packets are transmitted FIFO (first come, first served). Queues usually can hold enough packets to buffer a few milliseconds (10-100ms) worth of traffic. When the queue is full, and more packets are received, the router will throw them away. The sender will notice this (no acknowledges). And will slow down a little bit. There will be a constant flipflop between "sending enough packets to fill the link" and "sending slightly too many packets".

So when you download, the download is trying to make optimal use of the link. It keeps the link fully used. And thus the buffers in the output queue will be filled. Now when your game-packet arrives, it will be put in the same queue. Behind a bunch of download-packets. It has to wait till its turn. That might take 10-100ms. And that time is of course added to your ping. That is why you see your ping increase by 100ms (maybe even 200ms) when you download stuff.

This problem (called congestion) can happen at different places along the path over the Internet between you and the server you play one. Every spot of congestion can add time to your ping. Adding a few milliseconds per hop is normal. But when things get congested, the numbers can add up to one or more extra seconds of delay. This problem can sometimes be solved by switching to another ISP. However, even with the best ISPs, when you download heavily, your game will see an increased ping anyway.
 

TeknoBug

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2013
2,084
31
91
It doesn't, I can have a 2.5MB down and still maintain a ~10ms ping, it's all about server hops.

You could have a 100MB connection and get a ping of ~400ms with all the server hops.
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,471
32
91
i have 25mbps comcast

when I play Firefall with nothing dl i get 20ms ping in game

if a Netflix movie is streaming in the family room it drops to 33-36ms
 

Dman8777

Senior member
Mar 28, 2011
426
8
81
Thats probably due to increased buffer time. When netflix is running, the router has to mux 2 io streams vs.1 when you are the sole client.
 

phreaqe

Golden Member
Mar 22, 2004
1,204
3
81
Are you on wired or wireless? If you are on wireless you will see a much higher fluctuation then you would wired connection.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
More bandwidth does lower pings. But it depends. At very low speeds, a speed increase will have a noticable impact. But once you go over 1 Mbps speeds, the improvements will be so low, you won't notice it.

Round Trip Times (RTT, aka ping) consists of 3 things.
1) Transmission delay
2) Propagation delay
3) Buffer times on routers

*) Propagation delay is caused by the slow Speed of Light. Suppose you are on the east coast of the US. Suppose you send a packet to a server on the West Coast. What are the delays ? Well, the packet has to travel ~4700km (=3k miles) to go from NYC to SF. Suppose there is a fiber cable in a straight line. Speed of Light through fiber is 0.6 the Speed of Light through a vacuum. SoL = 300k km/sec = 300km/millisecond. Through fiber that is 180 km/millisecond. When a packet has to travel 4700km, that means it will take *at least* 26 milliseconds to get there. Now ping = Round Trip Time. So we need add the time for the packet to come back. Another 26 ms. Total RTT NYC to SF will be at least 52 milliseconds.

There is nothing in this Universe that can make that go quicker. Absolutely nothing. Unless you know of ways to mess with Einstein's theories.

*) Then there is transmission delay.
When your PC sends a packet, it sends it bit by bit. The other side (your home router) receives the packet bit by bit. It will not forward the packet over its cable connection, unless it has received the full packet. Only when it has received the last bit from your PC, it will start transmitting that packet to the next hop. There the same will happen. Your ISP's cable router will not start forwarding the packet until it has received the last bit for your home router.

The problem is on the slow links. Let's suppose you don't have a cable-connection. Let's suppose you have an old-fashioned 56Kbps modem. Let's suppose the upstream speed is also 56Kbps.

Let's suppose your game wants to send 100 bytes of game data. That gets encapsulated (20 bytes IP header, 8 bytes UDP header, 8 bytes PPP header). Total 136 bytes. Your link can send 56Kbps = 7000 bytes per second. That's 7 bytes per millisecond. To send your packet of 136 bytes, it takes 20 milliseconds. Now let's suppose the server sends back also a 100 byte packet. That's another 20 milliseconds. Your ping at that moment is increased by 40 milliseconds, just because you play on a slow line.

Let's assume you get ADSL. 1 Mbps down, 250 Kbps up. Downstream = 1000 Kbps = 128000 bytes/second. Take into account ADSL loses ~10% of it's bandwidth in overhead. Raw downstream bandwidth available = 116 bytes/millisecond. The packet from the server to your PC takes roughly 1 millisecond to be transmitted between the first bit and the last bit. Upstream is 4 times slower. So the packet from your PC to the server takes about 4 milliseconds to be transmitted. Total delay 1 + 4 = 5 milliseconds.

Result: going from a 56Kbps modem to a 1Mbps ADSL line will improve your ping by 35 milliseconds ! (When the average packetsize is 100 bytes in both directions).

Now let's assume you go from your ADSL link to a cable service. With 10 Mbps downstream and 10 Mbps upstream speeds. Let's assume cable also has a 10% overhead (which I think it has).

Downstream speed is 10x faster than ADSL. Transmission time of a 100byte packet goes from 1 millisecond to 0.1 millisecond. Upstream speed is 40x faster. Transmission time for a 100 byte packet goes from 4 milliseconds to 0.1 millisecond. Total ping reduction: from 5 milliseconds to 0.2 milliseconds.

So when you have a 10/10Mbps internet connection, the transmission times of your local connection have only a miniscule impact on ping times, compared to propagation delays.

Now suppose we go from 10/10 Mbps to 100/100 Mbps. That number of 0.2 milliseconds in your ping now goes to 0.02 milliseconds. On a total of 10-50ms of average ping to average servers, that doesn't mean a thing.

Conculsion: going from a 56Kbps to low speed ADSL/Cable makes a huge difference in ping times. Going from low speed ADSL/Cable to "normal" high-speed Internet gives a much smaller improvement. But it might be noticable. Going from normal high-speed Internet to very fast Internet does nothing for your ping times.

===
Why does your ping increase when you download stuff ?
Any link in the Internet can transmit only one packet at a time. What happens when a packet is being transmitted, and another packet already arrives to be sent over that same outgoing link ? That packet needs to wait. Routers have queues for packets to wait, until it is their turn to be transmitted. Usually packets are transmitted FIFO (first come, first served). Queues usually can hold enough packets to buffer a few milliseconds (10-100ms) worth of traffic. When the queue is full, and more packets are received, the router will throw them away. The sender will notice this (no acknowledges). And will slow down a little bit. There will be a constant flipflop between "sending enough packets to fill the link" and "sending slightly too many packets".

So when you download, the download is trying to make optimal use of the link. It keeps the link fully used. And thus the buffers in the output queue will be filled. Now when your game-packet arrives, it will be put in the same queue. Behind a bunch of download-packets. It has to wait till its turn. That might take 10-100ms. And that time is of course added to your ping. That is why you see your ping increase by 100ms (maybe even 200ms) when you download stuff.

This problem (called congestion) can happen at different places along the path over the Internet between you and the server you play one. Every spot of congestion can add time to your ping. Adding a few milliseconds per hop is normal. But when things get congested, the numbers can add up to one or more extra seconds of delay. This problem can sometimes be solved by switching to another ISP. However, even with the best ISPs, when you download heavily, your game will see an increased ping anyway.

Great Explanation. I don't know much about how it works, but I liked what you did and it really brought some clarity (assuming its all right :))

So why can't we move more than one packet of data at a time? What do you specifically mean by "link"?
Is it because there is physically a single wire that plugs into our cable modems, so each packet is going to be a represented as a bunch of well timed square waves...hence all transmission has to occur serially as opposed into parallel (i.e. such as taking advantage). Yes/no?

Given how much lag appears to get added by the router, I would think that a good router would be able to direct the data very quickly as opposed to incurring a 100ms penalty.
 

xantub

Senior member
Feb 12, 2014
717
1
46
I wish I had options. Just yesterday I noticed my Comcast bill (TV + extra room + latino package + 20/2 Internet) went from $80 to $120 (the promotion ended). I called to remove the TV package and just keep Internet... $70/month! I said "Fuck this! I'll go with another provider!"... I checked what other Internet providers I had in my zip code:
- 1-4 MB DSL
- 1-5 MB wi-fi

Nothing else. So basically if I want fast Internet my options are to either resign myself and hope Comcast uses vaseline, or move to a city (I'm not even that remote, I'm 20 min away from Atlanta)
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
I wish I had options. Just yesterday I noticed my Comcast bill (TV + extra room + latino package + 20/2 Internet) went from $80 to $120 (the promotion ended). I called to remove the TV package and just keep Internet... $70/month! I said "Fuck this! I'll go with another provider!"... I checked what other Internet providers I had in my zip code:
- 1-4 MB DSL
- 1-5 MB wi-fi

Nothing else. So basically if I want fast Internet my options are to either resign myself and hope Comcast uses vaseline, or move to a city (I'm not even that remote, I'm 20 min away from Atlanta)

If you threaten to disconnect usually they give you a deal or something for free. Or another promotion going. But yes, our market is messed up here and it's not fair that companies can use certain laws to give them monopolies in the areas they operate in.
 

Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
203
106
Great Explanation. I don't know much about how it works, but I liked what you did and it really brought some clarity (assuming its all right :))
Thanks.
At least one person appreciating it.

And yes, it is all correct. Maybe I am not 100% clear everywhere when explaining. But the text was already so long. But rest assured, the content of my explanation is all correct. It's not rocket science. I hope stuff makes sense when you read it.

So why can't we move more than one packet of data at a time?
Because that is how it works. IP technology is "packet switched". That means, data is cut in packets. And the network transmits packets one by one. The endpoints (your PC, a webserver, a game-server, etc) deals with what the packets are. Reassemble them, put them in the right order, retransmit them, etc. But you always finish one packet before you transmit the next one.

I could mention a few exceptions, but they would confuse you more than explain stuff. (ADSL can send multiple bits over different frequencies at the same time. WaveDivision Multiplexing can send multiple "colors" of light through the same fiber-strand. ATM does something with cells). But basically, all transmission technologies send one packet at a time.

What do you specifically mean by "link"?
A link is the connection between 2 routers, or between a router and a endsystem (like a pc or server). Or switches. It's more of a logical term when you look at the big picture.
A link could be ethernet, of WiFi, or fiber. Or a VPN even (if you look at it from the big picture). It's a term you can use to describe topology, without having to specify what technology you use.

Is it because there is physically a single wire that plugs into our cable modems, so each packet is going to be a represented as a bunch of well timed square waves...hence all transmission has to occur serially as opposed into parallel (i.e. such as taking advantage). Yes/no?
Yes. Kinda. As I said, different technologies have different details. But never are all bits in a packet transmitted at the same time.

Given how much lag appears to get added by the router, I would think that a good router would be able to direct the data very quickly as opposed to incurring a 100ms penalty.
The 100ms number I gave is not because the router is slow. It an example of when a router is congested. Suppose you have a home router. With one side 100Mbps Ethernet, and the other side is a 10 Mbps cable-connection. Suppose your PC sends 10 packets of size 1500 back-to-back to router. The incoming packets come in a 10 times the speed as your router can send them out. So when it has sent the first of those 10 packets, it has already received the other 9 packets. What is the router supposed to do ? It can send only 1 packet at a time. So the other 8 packets need to be buffered. And one of them can be sent after transmission is finished. After that one, the 3rd packet can be transmitted. Etc. The last of those 10 will be sent over the cable-link, quite some time after it has been received. Excuse me if I don't do the math now. But this delay is what you see when your ping goes up.
What else could the router do with incoming packets, when the outgoing link is already in use to transmit a packet ? The only alternative is to drop the packet. (Just throw it away. Drop it on the floor). That means the original sender (your PC) has to re-transmit it. And the delays there will be even bigger. And performance for the user is even worse.

Buffering is good for throughput. You can shove more data through your links. But one side effect is that delays (aka ping, aka RTT) will go up.

A solution would be to prioritize some packets over other packets. E.g. gaming-packets go to the front of the output-queue, and not to the tail of the output-queue. This is sometimes called Quality of Service. Some routers can do this. Note, for most gamers, that means that QoS actually needs to be enabled on the router owned by the ISP, that connects to your home router. Unfortunately not all ISPs do this.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
Consider a straw as a representation of your internet connection.

Bandwidth is the diameter of the straw, or how much you can pass through the straw at one time.

Ping time is the length of the straw, or how long it takes for said quantity to pass from one end of the straw to the other.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
I have a cable provided internet, with up/down of 35/101. I am thinking of changing to FiOS with their package of 150/150.

I've never been displeased with my cable package, but if I can get a lower ping, which will allow me to play on servers further away from me, I would love it.

Someone explain to me if these speeds actually make it possible to get lower pings. Thank you in advance

It doesn't translate into better ping.

You're confusing bandwidth and latency. Bandwidth is rate at which data can be sent which is measured in bits/bytes per second. Latency is the time it takes for a packet to leave your computer and arrive at the destination, they're completely independent of each other.

Ping is normally affected by the type of technology you use for transporting data, the distance it has to travel and the number of hops the data goes through in order to get to the destination.

In terms of gaming you'll find the following helpful:

1) Find servers physically very close to you
2) Use an internet connection technology that is low latency, things like fibre leased lines are fastest as they typically do not share routing with other people and it's digital the entire way so no modulating/demodulating
3) Preferably use an ISP which has an infrastructure geared towards gamers, some ISPs will partner with game hosting providers to build direct routes to game servers which have less hops on the network which greatly decreases latency.