How do you view the government's responsibility?

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tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Which are available to more people? Private and charter schools or public schools?

Yes, the quality is better, However, most people are unable afford it. Some schooling for all is better then no schooling for most.

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: tk149
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Which are available to more people? Private and charter schools or public schools?

Yes, the quality is better, However, most people are unable afford it. Some schooling for all is better then no schooling for most.

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.

stop paying property tax's? good idea. then the raods will go to shit, No more police/fire departments, etc etc.

while i have my isssues with property tax's they got o more then just schools.

 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,284
138
106
Originally posted by: tk149
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Which are available to more people? Private and charter schools or public schools?

Yes, the quality is better, However, most people are unable afford it. Some schooling for all is better then no schooling for most.

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.

Do you really think that even if somehow the taxes for school weren't taken from parents, and public schools were closed down, that most parents would bother sending their kids to school?

I'm not saying that the public school system is perfect, or doesn't need to see major changes, I am saying that a public school system is needed. The average intelligence in this nation is scary as it is, could you imagine how bad it would be if even less people got some sort of education?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,742
54,755
136
Originally posted by: tk149
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Which are available to more people? Private and charter schools or public schools?

Yes, the quality is better, However, most people are unable afford it. Some schooling for all is better then no schooling for most.

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.

There are plenty of countries without tax funded universal schooling. I can't think of a single one that I want the US to be like.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,826
4,358
136
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: Freshgeardude
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Government exists to protect all citizens. They need protection from outside aggressors and inside abusers. Government is there to facilitate "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". We need an infrastructure that encourages and allows for those things. Government is a tool and extension of, by, and for the people. Nothing the government does should be above us, or kept from us.

1) Federal government is NOT State or local government. We are NOT a singular nation, but a republic of individual states. We have obviously forgotten that. The federal government should deal directly with only the things that involve other countries or more than one state: international trade, diplomacy, external military, regulation of interstate affairs, interstate transportation, protection of universal rights/liberties, interstate or international crime, etc. Beyond that their role should be merely that of facilitator to assist the states. The states should bear the responsibility for all other governance.

2) The government should have ZERO regulatory authority over moral affairs. No involvement in sex, marriage, religion, philosophy, self-medication, ideology, etc. None. Zero. Ever. Period. The rule of government interference should be 'do whatever you want as long as it doesn't adversely affect another living thing without their consent.

3) The ONLY things that shouldn't be public record are codes, frequencies, lawful troop movements, undercover identities, etc. Absolutely EVERYTHING else the government does should have real time oversight by anyone who chooses to take a look.

4) Politics should be a calling, not a career choice. If you want to be in politics it should be because you want to serve, not because of elite status, income, benefits, or anything else. If you wouldn't do the job for minimum wage or less you have no business taking it for more.

5) Government is NOT a business and should NOT be getting involved in economic affairs. No national bank, no money making ventures, no market involvement, etc. The TOTAL sum of interaction between government and commerce should be:

a) taxation
b) tariffs
c) printing of national currency
d) granting of government contracts
1. for such services as the government is allowed to participate in
2. when such appropriations have been approved by the house
3. after a period of open bidding
4. after impartial review and oversight by an elected citizen watchdog group
e) final neutral arbiter in interstate or international commerce disputes
f) paying wages and benefits to government employees and officials
1. wages of officials should be fixed to a scale tied into median individual income
2. wages of employees should be reasonable but moderate, and subject to review
g) regulation and oversight of business to prevent abuse or exploitation of workers, consumers, or citizens

Money is NOT everything and should not hold the central focus it does in our lives. Except during time of ACTUAL war (not this terror BS) deficit spending should not be allowed. In any year that the US holds a national debt all government expenditures should require a special session of Congress for approval and all government wages should be fixed at a minimum.

6) The 'environment' exists for all mankind and is globally tied. No individual liberty or happiness is possible in a polluted or dangerous environment. Therefore the protection of the environment against pollution or needless destruction is a duty of the government.

7) While not everyone requires education at the same level, a basic education is a societal necessity and therefore falls under the purview of government regulation. However, it is important that this be designed as general education to create functional individuals, and NOT as a method to create future workers or patriotic nationalists. Since people will hold different beliefs in education, some form of voucher method is necessary to allow people to find alternative schooling if the public options aren't acceptable.

8) Health care (especially including mental health care) is a basic necessity of life and therefore is completely within the scope of government control and regulation. Failure of citizens to have access to preventative and emergency care (but NOT cosmetic BS) WILL cause harm to society and other citizens, and must therefore be avoided. This is simply the cost of living in a society and is non-negotiable. There are a number of ways for this to be accomplished (single payer with guaranteed loans, public option, etc), but it must be done. Oh, and insurance is NOT an option.

9) A stable, affordable energy source is essential to a functional nation and to individual happiness. Therefore the government has a role in the creation, oversight, and regulation of a public energy grid.

10) Communication is necessary to individual safety and fulfillment, and therefore a public communication system is required. This should include radio, tv, telephone, and internet communication options for public use. It is NOT the governments role to regulate what goes over these lines of public communication; only that they are available and maintained.

11) Police, fire, and other emergency services. Obviously these are infrastructure requirements and covered under the government umbrella. They need citizen oversight, just like all parts of government, but they're definitely a requirement.

More as I think of them.

Well put together, agree on every point but number 8.

government shouldn't be paying out to lazy, fat (like cant do any work fat, not like oh hey 40-50 lbs over normal weight), smokers, intentional drug users, etc.

we also have companies which cover the hard working everyday citizens. except for small businesses which cant cover for their employees, I see no where else a person "deserves" health care.




P.S. I was looking around the forum to find some articles on abuse of government power for my debate tomorrow as an Anti-federalist (support a weaker central government, apposed to federalists which are for the constitution and strong central government) and I really like your post and plan to use some of your points.

(no its not hw or anything worth a grade, I already have enough, but just to make sure i have more than enough cause if we win the debate, we get a pizza party :D )

The issue is that if they don't up front, they will on the back end.

If there aren't healthcare options people will just go to the ER and default on the payment, and everyone will pay for it in the end.

If people have no hope of healthcare they'll do whatever it takes to obtain the money they need for their families, and you'll have crime, etc, which will cost more in law enforcement and jails, and so on and leave you paying in the end.

If you go with insurance they'll charge everyone more to cover the people you talk about, and so you'll pay in the end.

No matter what answer you give, you're still going to pay for those people. Period. The only difference is rather you pay for their incarceration, their bankruptcy, or their health.

Well said.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: tk149
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Which are available to more people? Private and charter schools or public schools?

Yes, the quality is better, However, most people are unable afford it. Some schooling for all is better then no schooling for most.

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.

stop paying property tax's? good idea. then the raods will go to shit, No more police/fire departments, etc etc.

while i have my isssues with property tax's they got o more then just schools.

I should have been more clear. Eliminate that portion of property taxes that goes to paying for schools. Everyone gets an increase in their net income (Even renters indirectly pay property tax). Of course, you would no longer be spreading the cost of schooling among those with and without children, so tuition would increase. On the other hand, if parents actually had to pay money to send their kids to school/daycare, they would likely take more of an interest in their kids' education.

 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: tk149

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.

Do you really think that even if somehow the taxes for school weren't taken from parents, and public schools were closed down, that most parents would bother sending their kids to school?

I'm not saying that the public school system is perfect, or doesn't need to see major changes, I am saying that a public school system is needed. The average intelligence in this nation is scary as it is, could you imagine how bad it would be if even less people got some sort of education?

The average intelligence in AT P&N is scary. :p

1. I think you're right in that a good education is very important, but please realize that you are imposing your values on others. That's a whole other argument.
Also, Education <> Public School.

If you're okay with imposing your will on others, you could advocate that all children have to take an annual test. If they fail, the parents are fined/penalized. Each parent then has an interest in ensuring that his/her child is educated. Some will do home schooling, and others will pay to send their kid to school. For some parents, school is just daycare anyway.

2. A lot of public schools just plain suck. A lot of the reason for that is the culture of the parents. If the parents have to pay money to educate their kids, they will be more likely to provide an atmosphere conducive to education.
 

tk149

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2002
7,253
1
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: tk149
Originally posted by: Cogman
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Which are available to more people? Private and charter schools or public schools?

Yes, the quality is better, However, most people are unable afford it. Some schooling for all is better then no schooling for most.

What if people didn't have to pay property taxes (which fund public schools)? Would they be able to afford private school then?

If parents actually had to pay to send their kids to school, do you think that they would take a greater interest in their kids' grades?

Giving away anything for free devalues it.

OP, you've fallen onto the slippery slope. Some government is not equal to, nor superior to more government.

There are plenty of countries without tax funded universal schooling. I can't think of a single one that I want the US to be like.

Please provide an example and demonstrate the direct causation of no publicly funded schooling being responsible for poor quality of life (or whatever conditions you don't want the US to have).
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
1,100
0
76
I think its pretty well been established that we need an education system. A public school system is no imposing your will on someone else, you can home school or enroll your kid in a private school. You think society would be better if we had a lower literacy rate and more people didnt know basic math? By no means is public education great but its better then learning from the streets.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: masteryoda34
We do have some private schooling in America. Which schools are better: Private and Charter schools or Public schools?

Actually, the answer to that question might surprise you. When performance is corrected for socioeconomic class (Note: private schools are disproportionately attended by the more affluent, and it's well known that students from more affluent homes do better than kids from less affluent homes, regardless of the type of school they attend), there's virtually no difference in the performance of students from private and public schools.