How do you think G.W. is doing so far?

[Amused]

<<

<< Europe has something you dont, and that is history and history often causes trouble, ignorance and overblown egos are also very common cause of trouble (i.e. all those dictators) >>

Uh huh. As if any of this somehow negates any of the facts I've pointed out? >>


No I´m just pointing out that we have learned from our history, your country still has to go through that phase. Just expecting some dictator to come along and takeover europe just shows that you have not learned anything, you dont seem know any more about the history of Europe than probably one book you read in grade school. >>



Yeah. In the last 50 years you've radically changed from having at least one major war per generation, to no wars at all... NOT because the US was a stabilizing force, but because you suddenly learned how to get along with each other??? What a reach.

Oh, and yeah, that grade school book was real informative.

If you think insulting me makes your case, have at it... It wont change the facts.

 

[Czar]

Ok, I´m sorry I´v insulted you and I take it all back, it was not my intention.

I´m just trying to say that to us Europeans the US is not nearly as great as you think it is. Yeah maybe we have had a few wars but so have you, we have learned that wars dont solve problems, though it seems that the US hasnt learned that yet.

The biggest flaw of all is that when you look so highly upon yourself you start to ignore your mistakes, then you will never learn from them. This is what Europe I belive has finaly managed to learn and the US hasnt.

 

[Amused]

<< Ok, I´m sorry I´v insulted you and I take it all back, it was not my intention. >>



That's cool. Debates get heated. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes



<< I´m just trying to say that to us Europeans the US is not nearly as great as you think it is. Yeah maybe we have had a few wars but so have you, we have learned that wars dont solve problems, though it seems that the US hasnt learned that yet.

The biggest flaw of all is that when you look so highly upon yourself you start to ignore your mistakes, then you will never learn from them. This is what Europe I belive has finaly managed to learn and the US hasnt. >>



Really? What wars has the US started, that it hasn't had the backing of at least two or three European nations? Europe doesn't go to war, because they have us do it for them.

The US doesn't ignore it's mistakes any more than any European country does. Who's being arrogant now?

 

[glenn1]

<< I´m just trying to say that to us Europeans the US is not nearly as great as you think it is. >>



Fine. Point taken. But what on earth does this have to do with whether or not President Bush is doing a good job or not? It does not logically follow that whether Bush is doing a good job depends on the opinion that Europeans have of him. You seem to be making the assertion that if European leaders don't like Bush personally, that he obviously cannot be doing a good job... .

 

[Czar]

<< Really? What wars has the US started, that it hasn't had the backing of at least two or three European nations? Europe doesn't go to war, because they have us do it for them.

The US doesn't ignore it's mistakes any more than any European country does. Who's being arrogant now? >>



Very true that the UN and EU just lets the US play the wargames for them, sad realy. I think the Vietnam war was one of those wars.
Perhaps not ignore them, but its all about getting old and wise.

glenn1
not sure, somewhere it got out of hand.

 

[Elledan]

It seems like GWB is haunted by bad fortune: the spy-plane, the energy 'crisis' (rolling blackouts), drilling for oil to compensate for the rising fuel-prices (unfortunately in a national park), the execution of McVeigh (which is fuel on the discussion about capital punishment) and an economy that is slowing down.

Surely a fun time to be president, and this were only a few months

 

[chainbolt]

I think G.W has now a very hard time in Europe and at NATO, the first time outside of the US. Maybe he learns that to be respected as Prez of the US does not mean to be appreciated as person: Europe is not Mexico. Nothing much of his politics is appreciated in the rest of the world: antagonizing China, withdrawing from KYOTO treaty, Missile Defence, disengagement in the Israel/Arab conflict, dragging down the world economy (not his mistake of course), but there has been nothing positive from this administration (they see it this way). It also doesn't help that he is permanently mispelling the names of head of states, who are a couple of years longer in business than he.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< When you have both the ACLU and the Christian Coalition agreeing on something there has to be a good reason. >>

Lawyers and Believers in Mythology. These are two groups whose disapearence would benefit Mankind.

 

[etech]

Chainbolt, how the hell did GW antagonize China? I hope you can come up with something better then when their fighter plane crashed into our military surveillance aircraft.

Forget the Kyoto treaty, it was a way for the European countries to knock the US into deep recession. If global warming is truly a problem then it will be solved, but not by forcing the US into third world status.

Read the latest news, missile defense is getting a fairly good reception.


Red, I agree with you on the groups, I also agree with them on their views of McCain and his farce of a campaign reform bill.

 

[Czar]

yeah you just belive what you want, ignorance is bliss

 

[etech]

Czar, you must be ecstatic if that is true.

 

[Czar]

No I´m sad because of all this, that someone actually belives that Europe created the Kyoto accord just so it could turn the US into a third world state, that is ignorance.

The reason the US backed out of it was because it could not do it. The kyoto accord means that each country must lower emmission down 10% from the levels they were in 1990. In 1999 these levels had risen 11.5% so it is impossible for the US to do it.

 

[etech]

Czar, whether Europe did it intentionally or just looked upon it as a fortuitous outcome the result would of been the same. Adopting it would of driven the US into economic disaster.

At the same time China and India would not of been under the Kyoto accords. How much of the worlds population do just those two countries have?

Kyoto was flawed and would never have gotten through the Senate. Perhaps now a workable plan can be put into place.

BTW, there is nothing stopping any European countries from following the Kyoto accords. How many have implemented it?

 

[Czar]

The reason China and India is not a part of it is this.
These countries are still building themselves up.
These countries did not start polluting 100 years ago like we did.
These countries are not fit to go through these adjustments.
They are building nuclear plants because it is the most cost efficiant for them, countries like Germany just signed a deal that they will close all their nuclear plants because they can afford it for the sake of themselves and for the enviroment.

Its like you want to get to the roof, Europe and the US have gotten there so they dont need the ladder they climbed up, China and India are still climbing the ladder and if they loose it they will never get up.

European countries are still evaluating the Kyoto accord and arguing about it, they want it to go through wether it will be like it is now or if it will be changed, they are going through the talk procedure. Bush just left.

Why will the Kyoto cost the US anymore than it will cost countries in Europe?

 

[Amused]

<< They are building nuclear plants because it is the most cost efficiant for them, countries like Germany just signed a deal that they will close all their nuclear plants because they can afford it for the sake of themselves and for the enviroment. >>



If you think Germany will stick to the 32 year plan they signed, you're living in a fantasy world just like Schroeder is.

Germany has NO plan to replace the power these plant provide --a full one third of their nation's power-- after they shut them down in 32 years, other than importing it from countries who produce over 80% of their power from nuclear plants. How long do you think the citizens will stand for that when their power bills go through the roof?

81% of Germany's citizens favor nuclear power, meaning that when the sh!t hits the fan, this agreement will be moot.

Wait and watch the 2002 elections. I doubt this agreement will last long after that.

If they stick to this agreement, Germany will do to itself exactly what California did. Decrease power production while having no plans on how to replace it. They're shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Czar]

You are probably right, I personaly doubt that they will shut all of their plants by that time. But its often the question of how you use the energy you have and not of much more you will have to make.

 

[Thump553]

Back to the topic (this Bush's performance to date) I must totally disagree with Elledan's statement that he has had a string of unfortunate incidents to deal with. Elledan cites the spyplane/China incident as one, I would characterize that incident as underhand softball toss. Many people (myself included) from all ends of the US political spectrum despise the Chinese government. From the start it appeared China was in the wrong-both in the initial crash &amp; the subsequent stalement. There is little Bush could do except take a gradually toughening rhetorical stance. No real toughie there, and he could hardly avoid looking good in the end.

The Calif. energy crisis also played into Bush's hands, with his drill everywhere philosophy.

Passing that absurd &quot;tax cut&quot; was a major political acheivement. I felt then, and feel more strongly now, that it substantially harm the country and cost far more than the original billing (with all the phony accounting and sunset provisions built into the bill).

Frankly, this Bush has performed far better (read to mean avoided truly ghastly blunders) than I expected. He and his administration are far, far more conservative than he campaigned as, and this is becoming apparent to the American people. One of the most telling incidents is the Jeffords defection in the Senate, which was substantially caused by his people's heavy-handed political blundering. Remember that Jeffords was a long term Republican throughout the Reagan and senior Bush administrations, but he just couldn't stomach what this Bush is trying to do.

Bush is a much better public speaker than I realized before.

In my view, the jury is certainly still out on him. His handling of the economy is clearly the key-and I am not confident at all in what he is doing there. I am still highly doubtful that he will be anything more than a one term president. I just don't think he has the grit or intelligence to handle any real crisis.

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