How do you respect somebody elses religion?

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: piasabird
There is a difference between religion and religious teachings and the violent act of murder. Men who do things that we might consider wrong, evil, or bad such as blowing up women and children are using religion as an excuse to commit illegal acts. What people do is not necessarily what they profess to believe.

This is why America broke off from its European heritage. We wanted a society where everyone is free to choose to belong to any religion or any belief system, or lack therof, that they choose to believe in. We chose to be a land of freedom ruled by the courts, and our laws and not by religion or monarchs.

Part of this freedom is to allow all the right to have their religion of choice. So this means you can not force people to not believe in God or a religion. We are free, and we will fight for this freedom whether it be from people inside or outside of our country. This is what the constitution of the United States Says. If you do not belive in it, you do not believe in the constitution, and you do not believe in freedom.

And still "in God we trust" is printed on the only currency you can use in the US of A? What God is it referring to? You know as well as everyone else does that the intended God is the God of Christianity but even if that was not the case it's still not freedom since those who do not believe in any God still have to use it.

It might seem like a small thing until you realize that a politician that professes to any religion other than Christianity or no religion at all wouldn't ever even get close to getting elected because 90+% of the US would not vote for a non-Christian politician.

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
I find it rather amusing how some people sidestep the question of whether or not somebody not of their own religion is an idiot. Some people say "we all pray to the same god in the end!"... which ignores all polytheistic religions. Others say "as long as you are a good person, it doesn't matter what religion you are." Unfortunately, that isn't the rule with christianity and islam, possibly with judaism either.

This thread refers mainly to the abrahamic religions, judaism, christianity, and islam. I'll throw those zoroastrians in for good measure, they're about the biggest trouble makers imaginable. Let's take judaism first, jews have a presumption that they are the "chosen people" whereas all goyim are hellbound children. Then we have Christianity.... most branches of which assume non christians or non baptised peoples go to hell also. Twenty years or so ago, our president had a conversation with his mother about this very topic and argued that if you weren't a christian you were guaranteed hell. Im sure it was an intellectually fulfilling conversation, it's a shame it wasn't recorded. Finally, we have muslims who essentially assume you can be killed for not being a muslim.

So tell me.. when the fundamental tenets of your religion tell you to dismiss or kill everybody not of your religion, how can you possibly have "respect" for these others? Do you reinterpret your religion for your own convenience, or perhaps for your own guilty conscience?


This is a rather troubling question for myself, since I am not a jew, christian, or muslim. The teachings of these religions, the literature at the core of these faiths, range from smug self satisfaction to Mein Kampf levels of paranoia and distrust.

It's obvious from your post that you have a limited understanding of these religions. You've got it wrong on all accounts...try doing some research or taking a class.

Sure we can discuss the atheist position, or a secular moralist position, but if you are a devout believer of christianity, islam, or judaism, you consider the other two plus every other religion wrong. That could be fine but... being wrong in this case means damnation or something else unpleasant.

Again, try learning about the things you talk about.

I'm not going to get into it here on these boards, it's just not worth my time when there are literally THOUSANDS of resources available in your local Barnes and Noble.

Care to point out where I have something wrong and what specific text will help me be less ignorant on the matter? From what I've seen so far, it's the people who are angry with my original post that think they know something the rest of us don't. I suppose it goes with the territory.

Also, could you tell me who in the world does not have a limited understanding of these religions? If you are a jew christian or muslim, I can't imagine you'd give the other two religions a fair shake. On the other hand, I doubt an outsider to the abrahamic religions cares enough.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Nebor
I'm an atheist, but I throw my allegiance to the Jews before all others. Thus my unwavering support for Israel, and my strange tendency to eat kosher. Plus you've got to pick a side in the Jihad. I'm against the muslims.

I literally gagged when I read that you're an atheist. You give a bad image to the rest of us.

 

[teclis1023]

StoneBurner,

The reasons that you can't imagine me/us giving other religions a fair shake is because you yourself don't give religions a fair shake. You've stated that you're not active in any religious community, and therefore you're not particularly knowledgeable about the inter-communication between the three Abrahamic religions. Churches, Synagogues and Mosques often reach out to their counterparts within the same community, featuring cross-cultural seminars, speeches and sponsoring events together. Again, this is part of what I mean when I say that you should learn a bit more about what you're talking about. I'm not angry with your posts...I find them to be so misguided and ineffective that I fail to see them as anything worth being upset about.

You'd like an example of what you've said wrong? Sure, easy enough. I'll go with Judaism, since it is the most familiar of religions to me.

On the topic of Judaism, you state clearly that "goyim are hellbound". This is simply not true, and displays an ignorance about Jewish tradition, practice and culture. According to Halakhah (Jewish Law) gentiles are judged not by the laws of Judaism, but by the seven tenets of Noah. These Noahide Laws state that a gentile is righteous as long as he/she follows several rules, including those about killing and stealing, etc. Furthermore, Jewish tradition does not have a firm concept about the existence of Hell; instead, The Afterlife is a relatively vague concept, and is not by any means limited only to Jews. There is little emphasis on the Afterlife in Jewish tradition; mainly practices focus on what we can do here and now in order to improve the world.

I recommend that you take some time and take a class or attend a service in order to see what Jewish tradition is actually like, instead of making these false statements about the religion. Quite frankly, it's insulting to those that actually practice and know something about the religion to hear people make these generic, incorrect statements.

As for

"the people who are angry with my original post that think they know something the rest of us don't...I suppose it goes with the territory"

... Apparently we DO know something you don't...we actually know something about our religions. It's fine if you're an athiest, I don't care, just don't think that you can generalize the majority of Americans, Europeans and Middle Easterners with the simple caricature of a religious zealot saying "you're all going to hell!" I am active in an Orthodox Jewish community, yet I have strong friendships and ties with Christians, Catholics and Muslims. My two roommates are Catholic and some of my best friends at school were practicing Muslims. Most communities work with one another to promote understanding. We're not all polemics.

Again, there is a massive edit: wealth of resources to learn about religions available to you. Any bookstore should have more than enough to get you started. Try actually TALKING to a Rabbi or an Imam before putting words in their mouth. Or, if you're feeling up to it, go to a service.

 

[Stoneburner]

1. I'm not sure you meant dearth.
2. You are an active jew and you are the one assuming stuff about christianity and islam. I've already said judaism is the least offensive in this regard, but orthodox judaism embraces exclusivity for jewish peoples. Frankly, I'm guessing you are referencing the exact type of reinterpretation of canon which christians do so heavily or George Bush did so inartfully. What it boils down to is, "Sure we were wrong for centuries if not millenia, but we got it right now, and that thing that seems to mean what it says means the polar opposite"
3. The fact you get along with people of other denominations sort of proves my point. You consistently engage with and are friends with people you think are fundamentally wrong. This isn't a democrat v. republican or amd. v. intel type of debate either, this debate centers on your worth as a human being.
4. I said I was an outsider to the abrahamic religions. Alot of atheists are not, i.e. they grew up in a christian environment and just rejected it. Why don't you try to gain an outsiders perspective on what Jews Christians and Muslims seem to be saying about everybody else. I guarantee you, it ranges from unpleasant to mind numbing.

 

[jonks]

As a non-practicing atheist, I can't get past when I meet an intelligent person who is also devout. In my mind I separate belief in god from belief in organized religion. I don't know how the universe began, and is it possible some supreme intelligence created it? Who knows. So believing in a god doesn't phase me so much, but to think any organized religion had contact with that Being and that He cares about our daily lives, or that we go to a clean, well lighted place upon expiring, well, how is that different from believing in Santa?

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
1. I'm not sure you meant dearth.

You're right on that, I meant wealth.

2. You are an active jew and you are the one assuming stuff about christianity and islam. I've already said judaism is the least offensive in this regard, but orthodox judaism embraces exclusivity for jewish peoples.

Anything to support your intimate knowledge of Orthodox Judaism? You have already established that you have no insight into Orthodox community, yet you continue to talk as if you're in the know. Can you provide a source? Can you show me something that states that Jews don't value gentiles as human beings? I can tell you for absolute certainty that the level of welcoming openness in Orthodox communities world wide outweighs the exclusive closed-minded ones. Where are my assumptions about Christianity and Judaism? Here's what I know - I have read the Koran, studied Sharia and read the New Testament. What about you?

3. The fact you get along with people of other denominations sort of proves my point. You consistently engage with and are friends with people you think are fundamentally wrong. This isn't a democrat v. republican or amd. v. intel type of debate either, this debate centers on your worth as a human being.

When was it established that I don't value them as much as I value other Jews? When was it established that I think that they are fundamentally wrong? This is your misconception, and it does not reflect reality. Stop assuming that you know how I think.

4. I said I was an outsider to the abrahamic religions. Alot of atheists are not, i.e. they grew up in a christian environment and just rejected it. Why don't you try to gain an outsiders perspective on what Jews Christians and Muslims seem to be saying about everybody else. I guarantee you, it ranges from unpleasant to mind numbing.

I have plenty of experience in secular environments. I attended secular public school, attended secular College and work in a secular environment. I have lived in America, Denmark and Israel, and I'm more than experienced with a large range of societies. My parents are doctors and my family contains quite a few engineers and professors - point being that I'm certainly very much 'in the know' when it comes to secular academia.

No doubt there are people in all sects and societies who think exclusively. This is the case with all groups of people. Yes, there are Jews, Christians and Muslims who are disgustingly closed-minded. There are ALSO athiests, republicans and democrats are are disgustingly closed-minded.

YOU made a post which incorrectly generalized the ENTIRE group of Jews, Muslims and Christians. I corrected you, stating that the very essence of your assumption was, in fact, rebuked by traditional Jewish law.

I'm not sure where else to go with this. You're wrong. You have no insight into religious communities or practices, but you strive to defend your claims on how we all think. I'm not here trying to get into a fight, and I'm not here trying to say that there are NO religious people who think this way. Obviously there are those who condemn anyone other than themselves. What I am trying to say is that there are clearly laws within the canonical texts within each religion that allow for non-believers to be treated like equals and not be condemned to 'hell'

 

[Stoneburner]

Teclis, you're still making claims about islam and christianity. What do you base your statement on? I have spoken to catholics on this matter and one of them told me up until 60 years ago non christians were stuck in "limbo" About Islam, there are passages in the Quran which in essence say other faiths are wrong.

IN trying to argue the point you are proving it. I'm sure you don't think your friends are worthless because they are not jews, but to reconcile that with the idea of "god's chosen people" requires some inherent disingenuous hair splitting.

Also, there is a difference between "secular" and those that are not reared or intimately familiar with the nuances of the abrahamic religions. Please stop trying to argue a point you are more comfortable or familiar with and stick. If you are having this much difficulty understanding a simple post, I wonder if your views of your religion merit any consideration.

EDIT: something interesting I found in OFF TOPIC.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2099830&enterthread=y

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Teclis, you're still making claims about islam and christianity. What do you base your statement on? I have spoken to catholics on this matter and one of them told me up until 60 years ago non christians were stuck in "limbo" About Islam, there are passages in the Quran which in essence say other faiths are wrong.

The question isn't whether other religions are 'wrong.' Your original post is about RESPECTING other religions. Why am I talking about other religions? Between the two of us, I'm the only one who has actually read the books, so yeah, and it is upon the foundational texts that I am basing my statements on. Let's go back to your original post:

Let's take judaism first, jews have a presumption that they are the "chosen people" whereas all goyim are hellbound children.

Well, I disproved this one easily, so let's move on. For reference, see the Noahide Laws.

Finally, we have muslims who essentially assume you can be killed for not being a muslim.

Again, this is a mass generalization. Do you even know much about Muslims OTHER than those in the Fox News reports? If all (or even most) Muslims wanted to kill infidels, we'd be in big fucking trouble, since Islam is not only more popular than Christianity and Judaism combined, but is also the fastest growing religion. There are militant Muslims, for sure, but the vast majority of them are non-violent and don't adhere to these views.

So tell me.. when the fundamental tenets of your religion tell you to dismiss or kill everybody not of your religion

Tell me again where this is found universally across the texts? Oh, that's right, you don't actually know. You were just making it up. You need to learn about qualifying your statements. It's a relatively simple idea that involves actually providing evidence to support your statement.

how can you possibly have "respect" for these others? Do you reinterpret your religion for your own convenience, or perhaps for your own guilty conscience?

I respect my friends because they behave in a manner deserving of respect, simple as that. Communities respect each other, and show it by regularly congregating together and discussing similarities and differences between their views. Just as I can respect my friends with conservative political views, I can respect those with different religious views.

You're trying to argue something that can't be argued, mainly that religion creates an impermeable divide between different sects of people, and that religious people are unable to see the world in any manner other than that specified by their respective traditions. This denotes not a distrust in religion on your part, but a distrust in people as a whole.

IN trying to argue the point you are proving it. I'm sure you don't think your friends are worthless because they are not jews, but to reconcile that with the idea of "god's chosen people" requires some inherent disingenuous hair splitting.

You're either stupid or trying to piss me off. When did I mention anything about "Chosen People?" When was that qualified? You've got this idea in your head that you somehow have insight into my relationships and friendships, or even my general beliefs about "the chosen people." Again, point me to where I mentioned being a "chosen person". I'd be willing to venture a statement that that rhetoric is bandied more frequently by non-Jews than by actual Jews. That has certainly been my experience.

Also, there is a difference between "secular" and those that are not reared or intimately familiar with the nuances of the abrahamic religions. Please stop trying to argue a point you are more comfortable or familiar with and stick. If you are having this much difficulty understanding a simple post, I wonder if your views of your religion merit any consideration.

The only confusion seems to be on your part, asshole. Here's what I have successfully qualified: I am knowledgeable about both religious communities and traditions AS WELL AS secular and academic communities. I exist and belong to both, and therefore am self-qualifying myself as able to speak about both.

You, on the other hand, have no insight into religious practices, are deriving your argument based on rhetoric commonly found on bumper stickers and in pop-culture, and have displayed a woeful lack of knowledge about the fundamental laws and rules of the three Abrahamic laws, not to mention their many current iterations and practices.

The term secular refers to things not related to Religion, and therefore anything not implicitly bound in religion is considered secular. Therefore, a family may consider themselves "Christians" or "Jews", but if they do not practice the customs or traditions, they are considered a secular family. Secular does not only refer to athiest.

You can continue to repeat your points over and over again, but until you can come up with something substantial, then forget it. You're continuing to drone on about things that you haven't even come close to proving. You asked for evidence counter to your original claims, and I provided it with ease. I could continue, but it seems that no matter what is said, you're going to stick with your flawed original post and continue to make the assumption that religions cannot tolerate or respect each other.

 

[OrByte]

respecting someone's religion is as easy as respecting that person.

And if he/she can't do the same then there is a problem. But the old saying.."Sticks and Stones..." applies here, you have to apply some tolerance.

just my .02

 

[Stoneburner]

Teclis, you seem to be running off in a million random directions. You are the one who brought up your "friends" of different denominations, I say that proves my point. You are friends with people that your religion fundamentally considers wrong. There is no gray area here.

As for your nonsense about the secular stuff, that is also wrong. There is a difference between secular and being an outsider to the judaic-christian tradition insofar as it relates to political and social philosophy. To an outsider, all three of the abrahamic religions require the other two to be wrong, in addition to any others. Sure you can try to rationalize this inconvenient fact away, which is what this "secular" trend with judaism and christianity stands for.

Again, stop getting angry, and stop trying to argue something else entirely. If you want to defend your personal religion or your modernized views, go ahead, but just keep it clear what you are saying. Why are you complaining about the phrase "God's chosen people"? Did i just pull that out of nowhere? Does it matter who said it first? The phrase denotes EXCLUSIVITY.

Bringing out a larger point, I'm always amused by christian/jewish cooperation these days. ALot of the biggest supporters of Israel just want the Temple rebuilt so jesus can come back and kill all the jews or convert them. This is a view that exists NOW. How do you reconcile that with your views on the big 3?

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Teclis, you seem to be running off in a million random directions. You are the one who brought up your "friends" of different denominations, I say that proves my point. You are friends with people that your religion fundamentally considers wrong. There is no gray area here.

What don't you get? My religion does NOT fundamentally think they're wrong, buddy. For evidence, I provided the Halakhik Noahide Laws, and even linked them, I think. Try re-reading my responses, or try learning about these religions that you so eagerly want to talk about.

As for running in a million directions, I'm going point-by-point and answering your post. You're setting the direction.

As for your nonsense about the secular stuff, that is also wrong. There is a difference between secular and being an outsider to the judaic-christian tradition insofar as it relates to political and social philosophy.

I defined the word secular, as it is defined by the dictionary, to mean "not pertaining to religion." This is the official dictionary definition. I'm not sure whether you're a follower of another religion or not, but if you are not religious, you are by definition of the English language, secular.

To an outsider, all three of the abrahamic religions require the other two to be wrong, in addition to any others.

And my response to that is that an Outsider does not have the knowledge of any of the religions to back this statement up. You continue to fail to provide said evidence. Please enlighten us with some supporting evidence.

Sure you can try to rationalize this inconvenient fact away, which is what this "secular" trend with judaism and christianity stands for.

Again, stop getting angry, and stop trying to argue something else entirely. If you want to defend your personal religion or your modernized views, go ahead, but just keep it clear what you are saying. Why are you complaining about the phrase "God's chosen people"? Did i just pull that out of nowhere? Does it matter who said it first? The phrase denotes EXCLUSIVITY.

Here's the problem with your using "God's Chosen People" : You're using it without context and without a historical or religious understanding of the phrase. You continually say that this phrase denotes an intolerance on the part of the Jewish people toward all other religions. I continue to provide evidence to the contrary, which you conveniently seem to miss. You're using this as a mantra, but you're not exploring into the detail of the phrase.

Here is an example, Christians would also consider themselves "Chosen," as their beliefs are historically tied to and based upon the beliefs of Judaism. Their Messiah was Jewish. Their History is Jewish. Referring to the "Chosen People" is only rhetoric. Here's another example - Muslims could also apply the phrase "Chosen people" to themselves. They believe that their prophet, Mohammed, received the revised word of God and passed it along to them, therefore making them 'chosen'.

You have to look beyond sayings and phrases and study the religions before you talk about what things mean. So please, stop using this arbitrary term and address the actual facts and beliefs of the religion.

Bringing out a larger point, I'm always amused by christian/jewish cooperation these days. ALot of the biggest supporters of Israel just want the Temple rebuilt so jesus can come back and kill all the jews or convert them. This is a view that exists NOW. How do you reconcile that with your views on the big 3?

The reason that you're amused by interfaith cooperation is that you don't understand the basis of this cooperation. Churches, Synagogues and Mosques cooperate because they hav respect for each other, because they want to learn about each other, and because they are able to learn more about themselves by exploring other religions. Can you please gaive me an example of a Church and a Synagogue cooperating on a local level for reasons OTHER than these? My examples are found weekly on a grass-roots basis across the nation.

As for support of Israel, Christian Evangelical support is about the only support that I can think of that fills this statement. But this is beside the point, as you're confusing Israel with Judaism. Religious inter-cooperation is not the same as support of the Israeli nation-state. Furthermore, Evangelicals don't want to "kill" Jews, genius. They believe that the Messiah will return to Israel and we will all become Christians. Please, do some research.

You're absolutely fixed on what you believe to be the truth, yet you don't provide examples. I'm providing plenty of examples to try to show you that you're talking out of your ass. You want to tell me about my relationship with my roommates? Give me an example. Want to tell me that my religions doesn't value others? Give me an example.

Unless you're going to provide examples from the texts, from common practice, from tradition or from historical context, please just stop. I'm more than open to review excerpts and your experiences, but until you can provide them, you're coming off like a child arguing about things with which you have no experience.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Here is an example, Christians would also consider themselves "Chosen," as their beliefs are historically tied to and based upon the beliefs of Judaism. Their Messiah was Jewish. Their History is Jewish. Referring to the "Chosen People" is only rhetoric. Here's another example - Muslims could also apply the phrase "Chosen people" to themselves. They believe that their prophet, Mohammed, received the revised word of God and passed it along to them, therefore making them 'chosen'.

You have to look beyond sayings and phrases and study the religions before you talk about what things mean. So please, stop using this arbitrary term and address the actual facts and beliefs of the religion.

I've edited out the parts of your post that I have no issues with. There's just this bit...

It wouldn't seem to matter whether the Christians consider themselves "Chosen" by God. God either "Chose" them or he didn't, regardless of how they would like to see things. The same goes for the Jews and the Muslims.

This passage seems to support Stoneburner's argument rather than refuting it. The sense of being "Chosen" by virtue of their individual faiths in exclusion to all others is what separates the Abrahamic religions from each other. You see it as rhetoric, but they certainly don't. To them it is truth, hard, fast and, immutable. Your opinion may change, but God's doesn't. How can it, considering that he has control of whatever truth that can exist in any and all universes?

The thing that you don't seem to realize is that religion is serious stuff, the most serious stuff that can ever be if you take it as it is meant to be taken. The fate of the one part of you that lasts forever is at stake. In this light there is no rhetoric.

If you first identify yourself with a certain religion, then you are automatically excluding the others. You are saying that they are wrong in some fashion. You would not do this if you thought that your immortal soul was safe in another religion. You can't be a Muslim that thinks that there is some ultimate spiritual merit in Christianity. That would make you some kind of hybrid Muslim/Christian, but not clearly one or the other. You can be something other than both Christian OR Muslim, but not both while calling yourself one or the other.

The inconsistency isn't in Christianity or Islam, but in the fact that you choose to claim one religion while claiming respect for another at the same time. If you choose to be a Muslim, knowing full well that Christianity exists then you are consciously excluding Christianity from your theological philosophy, because you think that Christianity is not the path to truth. The same goes for the various denominations of all religions. There wouldn't be denominations if people agreed on what God's will is.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Rastus
Seperating philosophy from myth seems to me to be what we need to do. Just because the ancient texts have a lot of dubious stuff in them doesn't mean we can't get some good out of them.

After all, even the most diehard modern western athiest will probably think "Thou shall not steal" is a pretty good rule to live by. But he doesn't have to believe it was delivered on a stone tablet by a burning bush on a mountain.

What if you're a baseball player? What if you're in a war?

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Here is an example, Christians would also consider themselves "Chosen," as their beliefs are historically tied to and based upon the beliefs of Judaism. Their Messiah was Jewish. Their History is Jewish. Referring to the "Chosen People" is only rhetoric. Here's another example - Muslims could also apply the phrase "Chosen people" to themselves. They believe that their prophet, Mohammed, received the revised word of God and passed it along to them, therefore making them 'chosen'.

You have to look beyond sayings and phrases and study the religions before you talk about what things mean. So please, stop using this arbitrary term and address the actual facts and beliefs of the religion.

I've edited out the parts of your post that I have no issues with. There's just this bit...

It wouldn't seem to matter whether the Christians consider themselves "Chosen" by God. God either "Chose" them or he didn't, regardless of how they would like to see things. The same goes for the Jews and the Muslims.

This passage seems to support Stoneburner's argument rather than refuting it. The sense of being "Chosen" by virtue of their individual faiths in exclusion to all others is what separates the Abrahamic religions from each other. You see it as rhetoric, but they certainly don't. To them it is truth, hard, fast and, immutable. Your opinion may change, but God's doesn't. How can it, considering that he has control of whatever truth that can exist in any and all universes?

SlitheryDee, I appreciate your feedback. I picked on the idea of the "Chosen People" because, in this day and age, it has become rhetoric more than anything else. What I mean by this is that it's a term bandied around, but few think to define it outside of its traditional meaning, which is the Jews. By definition of both being Abrahamic religions and believing to have been given a specific set of knowledge (Koran/New Testament), the argument could be strongly made that both Christianity and Islam qualify as "Chosen."

The thing that you don't seem to realize is that religion is serious stuff, the most serious stuff that can ever be if you take it as it is meant to be taken. The fate of the one part of you that lasts forever is at stake. In this light there is no rhetoric.

I have already identified myself as a practicing religious person. I take religion very seriously. At the same time, I am able to separate myself from my personal convictions and beliefs in order to approach the topic rationally.

If you first identify yourself with a certain religion, then you are automatically excluding the others. You are saying that they are wrong in some fashion. You would not do this if you thought that your immortal soul was safe in another religion. You can't be a Muslim that thinks that there is some ultimate spiritual merit in Christianity. That would make you some kind of hybrid Muslim/Christian, but not clearly one or the other. You can be something other than both Christian OR Muslim, but not both while calling yourself one or the other.

I have said this over and over, the original post is not about which religions are right or wrong. Take a look at the original post - it is about respecting other people of other religions. Whether I think someone is right or wrong does not affect my ability to respect them as a person and as an intellectual person.

In order to demonstrate my respect for all religions, I continue to study them. I congregate with their followers and learn as much as I can about them. Just because I don't follow Christianity does not mean I can't learn as much about it as possible.

The inconsistency isn't in Christianity or Islam, but in the fact that you choose to claim one religion while claiming respect for another at the same time. If you choose to be a Muslim, knowing full well that Christianity exists then you are consciously excluding Christianity from your theological philosophy, because you think that Christianity is not the path to truth. The same goes for the various denominations of all religions. There wouldn't be denominations if people agreed on what God's will is.

Again, whether I think Christianity or Islam or Judaism is the path to truth is irrelevant in this conversation. As for excluding Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism from my theological philosophy, this is simply not true. My practices and views are very much influenced by quite a few religions of the world. Just because I don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah does not mean I can't aspire to many of his wonderful qualities. Just because I am not a Buddhist doesn't mean that I can't practice Buddhist meditation techniques and attempt to become "more like" them. Religious observation is not contingent on polemic exclusionary philosophy. I would argue that I am a stronger Jew now that I understand and respect the cultures, practices and beliefs of other world religions.

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
Again, whether I think Christianity or Islam or Judaism is the path to truth is irrelevant in this conversation.

Well there you have it, you have wasted everybody's time. This is actually the very key to this discussion.

Also, you really need to understand the difference between "secular" and somebody outside to the CJI. Somebody can be a devout hindu and be an outsider to the abrahamic religions and somebody can be an atheist and an inside because of where and how they were raised. This is a very simple point, it's troubling you can't grasp it.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
If you first identify yourself with a certain religion, then you are automatically excluding the others. You are saying that they are wrong in some fashion. You would not do this if you thought that your immortal soul was safe in another religion. You can't be a Muslim that thinks that there is some ultimate spiritual merit in Christianity. That would make you some kind of hybrid Muslim/Christian, but not clearly one or the other. You can be something other than both Christian OR Muslim, but not both while calling yourself one or the other.

Sure, by setting up such distinctions and following them, you assume that these distinctions have some great significance. But note what the Qur'an says on this matter:

"Those who disbelieve in Allah and His
Messengers and seek to make a distinction
between Allah and His Messengers and
say: We believe in some Messengers and
disbelieve in others; and desire to adopt
a position in between, these indeed are
disbelievers beyond doubt, and We have
prepared for the disbelievers an humiliat-
ing chastisement. Those who believe in
Allah and in all of His Messengers and
make no distinction between any of them,
these are they whom He will soon give
their rewards. Allah is Most Forgiving,
Ever Merciful."

4:151-153 trans. Muhammad Zarfrulla Khan

Note in particular that the Qur'an regards Jesus as a Messenger of God. Thereby, this passage tells Muslims that they must not make distinctions between Jesus and Muhammad of the sort that you promote -- that one implies the exclusion of the other.

 

[Lord Bilz]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
It is entirely possible to respect someone else's religion. Here's a great example, I'm a Catholic and lets say our friend Bob is Jewish. Granted my religion doesn't allow Bob into my heaven, but Bob's does the same to me and both of our religions (and most any other for that matter) forbid its members from being the ones who judge others. I am not personally damning Bob and Bob is not personally damning me.As long as Bob and I allow each other to hold our personal (emphasis on personal, as religion at its very core is the bond, or lack thereof, between yourself and whatever you do/don't worship) beliefs without persecuting each other over them, one could say we are respecting them.

Sitting back and doing nothing while Bob sends himself on a path to hell is a sign of respect?

 

[Oceandevi]

I will never respect them. I do not have one and think those that need them are weak minded. Some are cuter than others though.. budhists.. so cute!

 

[Stoneburner]

Ann Coulter is honest about this at least
http://mediamatters.org/items/200710150002?f=h_latest

MALZBERG: -- "declaring Jews need to be perfected by becoming Christians."

COULTER: Right. That comes from that raging anti-Semite St. Paul.

MALZBERG: So, but what --

COULTER: This is a straight statement of Christian doctrine. You can look it up. One of my friends just emailed me from the Oxford University definition -- it's on [the blog] Sweetness and Light -- this is what Christians believe. We believe the Old Testament, and we think the New Testament completes that. I mean, the Old Testament is obviously anticipating some Christ coming. Jews say, "Not that Christ" --

MALZBERG: The Messiah.

COULTER: -- "you got the wrong one."

MALZBERG: Not -- Right, right.

COULTER: Yeah, we worship -- our savior is a Jew. They say our savior was a raving lunatic, but I was just saying that the New -- we consider, when Jews become Christians, that is becoming a perfected Jew. And that is precisely the theological term.

People who have no knowledge of religion should not, for one thing, probably talk about it, but should certainly not go around getting their noses out of joint about it. But if anybody's going to be offended by anyone's religion -- we believe their religion. They don't believe ours.

MALZBERG: Well, and I'm Jewish. So, I mean -- so, I just want to make it clear for people out there that you're not telling Jews, "Jews, you need to convert to Christianity," are you?

COULTER: Well, all Christians would want -- of course, a Christian would like everybody to become a Christian. I'm not going to slit your throat over it.

 

[Oceandevi]

"I'm not going to slit your throat over it. "


lol

 

[theeedude]

I respect religions only as fairy tales that are socially acceptable for adults to believe in.
We may need an element of fantasy to fill in holes in our lives.

 

[blackangst1]

I respect the non-religious as being prideful and putting waaaaaay too much confidence in mankind. Pride in man is the fall of man. Sorry, but you aint all that.

*shrug*

 

[piasabird]

The USA is a country with laws. There is a difference between respecting a person's religion and saying it is ok to teach people that it is permissable to break the law. I dont have respect for people that teach hate and murder and inequality. I also dont have respect for people that teach that some groups are protcted either. That said there are some things that are legal like being homosexual or sex outside of marriage that my religion says is a very dangerous sin. In that case I understand that people commit sins or do things that I may consider to be bad for them, but no one is really perfect. Somehow God loves us all, he just hates the sin. However, even in my religion God can not deny judgement.

So under the Christian Pylosophy Christ Died for our sins. However, the condition is that we ask for forgiveness and try to live our lives the best we can and try to follow his example. Part of the example of Chirst was to have compassion for others. However, it still is a requirement to teach what sin is, what right and wrong is and to encourage people to repent and change while they still can. Judgement day will come whether we believe or not.

 

[rpanic]

Any religion that is my way or the highway (to hell in some cases) should not get any respect since they fail to respect others that might think differently.

Christians say I am going to hell, and Muslims want me dead, no way to win with these groups.