How do you justify (ethically) consuming animals and animal products when you don't need to?

[Nitemare]

they are made of meat

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo

Originally posted by: MrChad
Their existence as a species depends on humans raising and consuming them.

In that thought, your assumption must have been that a large portion of the world stops eating meat, and then they cannot continue as a species.

If that happens, because the majority of people happen to agree that eating meat is wrong, then wouldn't it just be that the animal becoming extinct is just the natural path of things?

A while ago, there was some very rare eagle or something, and millions were being fundraised to save it. If it wasn't going extinct because of something humans did, wouldn't it be safe to say that it's extinction is because it couldn't survive the battle of the fittest? Who says an animal should or shouldn't go extinct in nature's course?

Anyone who understands ecosystems is to say that an animal shouldn't go extinct.

What an absolutely ridiculous notion. How did life manage to survive for so long without us around to decide what lives or dies? Australopithecines are extinct. If they weren't, you wouldn't exist. Over 99 percent of all species that have ever lived are extinct, and over 99 percent of those are completely unrelated to human intervention. I draw the line at extinctions that humans actually cause; I'd like to see that practice stopped immediately. But to make the claim that all animals should never go extinct? Preposterous.

Sorry for not directly stating "by human hands". I thought it was obviously implied by the nature of the planet currently and the fact that our ravenous appetite for real estate means that many valuable species can't thrive naturally anymore. Next time I'll spell it out so someone can't make a lame-brained retort.

Oh really? You were directly responding to a question that specifically mentioned extinctions not caused by humans, and I'm supposed to conclude that your response is intended for extinctions caused by humans? Whose reading comprehension failed here?

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: thirtythree
The reason is it's a lifestyle that minimizes harm towards sentient beings. Not that hard to understand is it? I know I wouldn't want to be an animal on a farm. It's not exactly natural, and unlike humans, I think what's natural is what's best for animals. It's all they have to go on since they don't appear to have the same higher level thought processes as humans. I'd recommend a book called Animals And Ethics by Angus Taylor. It's more of a philosophical look at it and does include arguments against animal rights.

Again, you make the blatant logical fallacy of equating all farms.

And let me ask you this... would you rather be an animal in a free range farm fed well with plenty of room to roam and chew cud, or never born at all? What exactly do you think is so drastically different for a cow on an "ethical" farm? The only difference I see is that no one is caring for the cow's health, feeding it, or milking it every day. Wow, that is really cruel stuff. We do two of those things to our own babies! SICK!!!!

Again, we have no responsibility to unborn individuals (e.g., breeding as many humans or animals as possible). I'd rather not be born though, if I really had the choice. Do you really know that much about where the animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from though? If there are such ethical farms, why don't they make more of an effort to make themselves known? Do you know of any farms that can feed a good number of people with good information about their farming practices and pictures of their farms?

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
I really don't care for philosophy. Most of a statement of their opinion and I have my own opinions. If you are saying it is unnatural to raise domesticated animals for food then would you support hunting? There is no way you can not saying hunting of an animal by an animal is unnatural. Unless you totally do not consider humans as animals.

For that matter, how can you say, without a doubt, that plants are not sentient beings? If they are or you consider the possibility they are then harvesting them for food is immoral as well. To use the "lesser evil" argument is a cop out. One life form should not have more value than another according to your lifestyle or set of morals...otherwise it is hypocrisy.

Well, science seems to tell us that plants aren't sentient beings. I have to make certain assumptions based on what I know since I'm not omnipotent. Appeal to nature isn't an argument, as I've pointed out before. What's natural for animals is NOT a guide to what's right for humans. What do you mean you don't care for philosophy? It's just ethical reasoning -- the fact that you don't "care for it" doesn't mean you shouldn't think about it. You can't just accept the status quo without questioning it.

Originally posted by: AbAbber2k
I read a statistic somewhere recently that said the average American eats over 65lbs of meat a year... which comes out to only 3oz a day. :roll: Weaksauce.

I eat anywhere from 10-16oz a day. About 300lbs a year.

I eat meat because it tastes good, and I enjoy it. If I go without it for too long I start to get cravings... just like I get carb cravings if I don't eat carbs for a long time. The human body is designed to subsist on an omnivorous diet. I'm not going to deny my nature.

I don't know whether that statistic is right or not, but but it adds up to billions of animals a year in the U.S. (10 billion + about that many fish, I believe).

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
There are issues with growing massive amounts of food for an ever growing population. The first things that come to mind is the need for real estate. Just because you say i'm going to grow more apples to feed more people does not make it happen. It requires more land and clearing of those lands to be able to mass produce them. Which, in my mind, would hurt the overall ecosystem and the animals and plants that would normally inhabit them.

I just don't understand how you can be so self-righteous as to think your morals are more right than anothers.

Over half of the grain we grow goes to feed the billions of animals we produce for meat a year, so that would free up some space. Eating animals is no more efficient (and arguably less efficient) at feeding a population than plants. What about all the land cleared for grazing cattle?

At any rate, in response to you and jaqie, I personally believe in my morals but haven't stated that everyone should do as I say. Is it hurting anyone to talk about it though? I've certainly received more personal attacks than I've dished out. How am I anymore self-righteous than people who think I'm stupid for not eating meat?

 

[Mo0o]

A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a fruitarian

 

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

Even the cows agree you are wrong.

 

[drinkmorejava]

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: irishScott
Ummm... animals have lots of nutrients lacking in vegetables (Mainly protein and fat. Yes you need some fat.).

There are a few plant sources that are complete proteins and countless combinations of foods that create complete proteins (they don't need to be combined in a meal or anything like that). The reason animals are good protein sources is they're living beings who need these proteins--but according to Wikipedia, beef and milk aren't even complete proteins. They're deficient in phenylalanine/tyrosine and methionine/cysteine respectively. I've heard from other sources that they are complete proteins though, so who knows. Almost everything has proteins and fats--fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, seeds, beans. There are lots of good plant sources for fat with low saturated fat.

Either you read it wrong, or wikipedia was wrong. This is completely false. The high Phenylalanine content is exactly why people with PKU must avoid meat products like the plague. The methionine part is wrong too.
Google ftw.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: Cogman
I live on a farm and I deal with animals daily (probably most cant say that) their life isn't bad at all. It isn't like they are in pens separating them from other animals or in tiny enclosed spaces, they are given HUGE amounts of land to live on (Most farmers work this way). And I can almost promise that they would suffer the extinction of their species if we where to just let them roam free. Take the Turkey for example, if shelter isn't provided it will look up at the sky and drown in the rain, You can't tell me that animal has all the same higher learning capabilities as a human.

Killing animals for the sake of killing is wrong an sadistic, but killing animals to eat and feed yourself is nature. What makes a bear killing a dear and eating it any worse then a human killing a dear and eating it? After all, your argument is that man and animals have all the same reasoning capabilities. Nothing in nature is more natural then one species killing and consuming another, that is essentially how evolution works. Not only that, but in some cases it is cruel not to thin the population. Without a check of hunters many species would quickly overpopulate, stretch resources thin, and start to starve to death. Im thinking of dear here, in many places humans are the only check to keep them from doing such.

Now for the animal products, I have milked cows for a fair portion of my life and I promise you that the cows know exactly what is going to go on when you milk them. It isnt a case where I beat them with a stick till they come to the door of a barn. In fact, quite often they would be waiting at the door for me to let them in. More then happy to let me milk them.

How much does your farm produce for sale? I never claimed that animals were as intelligent as humans or has the same reasoning capacities (I claimed the opposite, in fact). However, being more intelligent than something doesn't imply that we should have power over it. Also, as I've stated before, what's natural for animals (e.g., forcibly having sex with females) isn't a guide to what's natural for humans. How many animals breed animals for the sole purpose of killing them? How many drink the milk of other animals? Keeping animals in check is something to think about, but that's not how most of our meat is supplied.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Deer had just as long as we did to develop firearms.

I think deer might have had a bit longer actually...

 

[Soundmanred]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

I think he already is.
:wine:

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: irishScott
Ummm... animals have lots of nutrients lacking in vegetables (Mainly protein and fat. Yes you need some fat.).

There are a few plant sources that are complete proteins and countless combinations of foods that create complete proteins (they don't need to be combined in a meal or anything like that). The reason animals are good protein sources is they're living beings who need these proteins--<but according to Wikipedia, beef and milk aren't even complete proteins. They're deficient in phenylalanine/tyrosine and methionine/cysteine respectively. I've heard from other sources that they are complete proteins though, so who knows. Almost everything has proteins and fats--fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, seeds, beans. There are lots of good plant sources for fat with low saturated fat.

Either you read it wrong, or wikipedia was wrong. This is completely false. The high Phenylalanine content is exactly why people with PKU must avoid meat products like the plague. The methionine part is wrong too.
Google ftw.

Okay, that's not really a critical part of my argument anyway. I stated that I had heard otherwise so the information could be wrong. Here is the Wikipedia source.

 

[ravana]

Originally posted by: So
I will not consume any animal that can recognize the immorality of eating me. Therefore, everything is fair game except maybe dolphins and chimpanzees, and I don't trust chimps...

Especially not after what they did to Charlton Heston.

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: Soundmanred

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

I think he already is.
:wine:

I thought he was currently vegetarian trying to go vegan which is still a step up from fruitarian

 

[purbeast0]

the OP sounds like a nutcase.

 

[jaqie]

Heh. twice now my sensical arguments were ignored by the OP. it seems I struck a chord to which had no sensical rebuttal.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Again, we have no responsibility to unborn individuals (e.g., breeding as many humans or animals as possible). I'd rather not be born though, if I really had the choice. Do you really know that much about where the animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from though? If there are such ethical farms, why don't they make more of an effort to make themselves known? Do you know of any farms that can feed a good number of people with good information about their farming practices and pictures of their farms?

Can I ask you the same question, do you really know much about animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from? Have you ever lived on a farm or near one or are you just regurgitating what you read in you PETA propaganda?

I LIVE on a farm. I am SURROUNDED by farms (live in Idaho). And I know for a fact that animals aren't treated half as bad as you portray them to be. Farmers actually do treat their animals like living beings, despite what you may thing people aren't heartless, they don't like causing discomfort to animals. Hence the reason that the mode of death for many meat products is a very quick one. It isn't like we slit their throats and let them bleed out for petes sake.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

I define sentient as capable of experiencing pleasure and pain -- or caring about what happens to them. Does a blade of grass care if you cut it down? Does it feel pain? To the best of my knowledge, no. As mentioned, lots of plants are killed to fatten up the animals we eat, so eating plants is at least the lesser of the two evils.

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Soundmanred

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

I think he already is.
:wine:

I thought he was currently vegetarian trying to go vegan which is still a step up from fruitarian

I think he was implying that I'm gay.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Either you read it wrong, or wikipedia was wrong. This is completely false. The high Phenylalanine content is exactly why people with PKU must avoid meat products like the plague. The methionine part is wrong too.
Google ftw.

Okay, that's not really a critical part of my argument anyway. I stated that I had heard otherwise so the information could be wrong. Here is the Wikipedia source.

This is slightly off topic, but could you please put a couple of lines after what you quote? You notice how when you quote, there are two enters automatically? That's because it is very difficult to read the text when the quote box is mashed up against what you are writing, especially if you are responding to 5 quotes in one post. Thank you.

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Again, we have no responsibility to unborn individuals (e.g., breeding as many humans or animals as possible). I'd rather not be born though, if I really had the choice. Do you really know that much about where the animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from though? If there are such ethical farms, why don't they make more of an effort to make themselves known? Do you know of any farms that can feed a good number of people with good information about their farming practices and pictures of their farms?

Can I ask you the same question, do you really know much about animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from? Have you ever lived on a farm or near one or are you just regurgitating what you read in you PETA propaganda?

I LIVE on a farm. I am SURROUNDED by farms (live in Idaho). And I know for a fact that animals aren't treated half as bad as you portray them to be. Farmers actually do treat their animals like living beings, despite what you may thing people aren't heartless, they don't like causing discomfort to animals. Hence the reason that the mode of death for many meat products is a very quick one. It isn't like we slit their throats and let them bleed out for petes sake.

Are you on small family farms or large corporate farms?

 

[Mo0o]

.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: jaqie
Heh. twice now my sensical arguments were ignored by the OP. it seems I struck a chord to which had no sensical rebuttal.

I did respond to your argument on this page. Search for your name or read the thread. As you may have noticed I didn't respond to the hundred or so comments made while I was gone -- I can't even keep up with the new posts. To answer your question, I wouldn't kill a bug if I didn't need to; I would release it into the wild. Luckily I live on the 4th floor of a building and don't have to worry about it. However, I've looked briefly at ways to get rid of bugs without killing them (i.e., just making them leave).

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

I define sentient as capable of experiencing pleasure and pain -- or caring about what happens to them. Does a blade of grass care if you cut it down? Does it feel pain? To the best of my knowledge, no. As mentioned, lots of plants are killed to fatten up the animals we eat, so eating plants is at least the lesser of the two evils.

Originally posted by: Mo0o

Originally posted by: Soundmanred

Originally posted by: Mo0o
A lot of animals aren't sentient. How do you define sentient? If you're truly concerned about the death of life you would be a frutarian

I think he already is.
:wine:

I thought he was currently vegetarian trying to go vegan which is still a step up from fruitarian

I think he was implying that I'm gay.

So you'd be ok with eating eggs then? As long as the hen is well taken care of? Or does the possibility of sentience not jive w/ you either. What about algae that are capable of moving away from noxious stimuli

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: thirtythree
Again, we have no responsibility to unborn individuals (e.g., breeding as many humans or animals as possible). I'd rather not be born though, if I really had the choice. Do you really know that much about where the animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from though? If there are such ethical farms, why don't they make more of an effort to make themselves known? Do you know of any farms that can feed a good number of people with good information about their farming practices and pictures of their farms?

Can I ask you the same question, do you really know much about animal products in your foods, personal care, cleaning, and clothing comes from? Have you ever lived on a farm or near one or are you just regurgitating what you read in you PETA propaganda?

I LIVE on a farm. I am SURROUNDED by farms (live in Idaho). And I know for a fact that animals aren't treated half as bad as you portray them to be. Farmers actually do treat their animals like living beings, despite what you may thing people aren't heartless, they don't like causing discomfort to animals. Hence the reason that the mode of death for many meat products is a very quick one. It isn't like we slit their throats and let them bleed out for petes sake.

I don't believe that farms such as yours provide the majority of animal products that are available to me. I agree that it's hard to find unbiased information, but I do what I can. Since I can easily minimize my use of animals products and I feel there's a good chance farm animals don't love their lives, I don't have any reason not to. EDIT: Also, I should say that they can't just kill the hen once it stops being productive. If it liked its life so much it certainly wouldn't want to die, would it? I doubt there are any farms that support hens into late life.

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: thirtythree

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
Either you read it wrong, or wikipedia was wrong. This is completely false. The high Phenylalanine content is exactly why people with PKU must avoid meat products like the plague. The methionine part is wrong too.
Google ftw.

Okay, that's not really a critical part of my argument anyway. I stated that I had heard otherwise so the information could be wrong. Here is the Wikipedia source.

This is slightly off topic, but could you please put a couple of lines after what you quote? You notice how when you quote, there are two enters automatically? That's because it is very difficult to read the text when the quote box is mashed up against what you are writing, especially if you are responding to 5 quotes in one post. Thank you.

My apologies. It's a habit. I'll try to keep that in mind.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: thirtythree
At any rate, in response to you and jaqie, I personally believe in my morals but haven't stated that everyone should do as I say. Is it hurting anyone to talk about it though? I've certainly received more personal attacks than I've dished out. How am I anymore self-righteous than people who think I'm stupid for not eating meat?

I don't care if people want to be vegan, that's a lifestyle choice that you have every right to make. What annoys people is when you assert that your lifestyle is better than everyone else's. If you wanted to have an intelligent discussion about veganism, you could have started a thread asking something along the lines of "what is ATOT's opinion on the treatment of animals in the meat industry?" Rather, you post a thread basically attacking those who eat meat and demanding them to justify their actions.

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Are you on small family farms or large corporate farms?

Mostly we are surrounded by smaller family farms. There are a few cooperate farms around us as well. By smaller though, I am talking 250-500 head of cattle. That is still a lot of beef to be recon with.

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: thirtythree
At any rate, in response to you and jaqie, I personally believe in my morals but haven't stated that everyone should do as I say. Is it hurting anyone to talk about it though? I've certainly received more personal attacks than I've dished out. How am I anymore self-righteous than people who think I'm stupid for not eating meat?

I don't care if people want to be vegan, that's a lifestyle choice that you have every right to make. What annoys people is when you assert that your lifestyle is better than everyone else's. If you wanted to have an intelligent discussion about veganism, you could have started a thread asking something along the lines of "what is ATOT's opinion on the treatment of animals in the meat industry?" Rather, you post a thread basically attacking those who eat meat and demanding them to justify their actions.

We are having a discussion, right? When have I asserted that I'm better than anyone else? I don't feel my OP was particularly inflammatory, but there have been plenty of inflammatory responses.

I'm taking off, see ya.