How do you feel about stealing open wifi networks?

[GoPackGo]

How does one get caught from inside their house unless their computer is named JOHNDOEPC or something like that?

Second off, I would argue that if THEIR signal is on MY property, they are trespassing.

I dont want their ooky spooky signals going through my brain.

Also, who is to say that someone doesn't leave their signal open on purpose to share?

Do you high and mightys get permission first for listening to the radio or watching TV?

 

[Locut0s]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Laughingman12
I think getting arested for using someones wifi network is some bullshit. You bought your computer and if your notebook computer contains a network card that you have the right to use it however you want.

Yeah, I bought my knife so I have the right to use it however I want. Hold still while I stab you in the neck.

I read that as "I bought my wife" 🙂 Now read the rest of your posts here with wife for knife. haha

 

[Amused]

Without their permission? No. I don't feel it's OK.

Now if it's a public use signal like at a Panera, then sure.

It's a simple case of the golden rule folks. If you don't want anyone using your wireless without your permission, then don't use anyone else's without their permission. And don't talk to me about locks. Just because something is unlocked does not mean it's yours for the taking. I'm sure you've left your stuff unsecured before, be it forgetting to lock your house or car, or forgetting to turn on WEP.

It's simply shocking to me how many people believe it's perfectly OK to do things to other people they wouldn't want done to them. This is the slippery slope of moral relativity.

Just remember this: If you do things to other people you wouldn't want done to you, you have NO right to complain when someone does just that.

 

[zeruty]

Originally posted by: RelaxTheMind
As long as you dont torrent 50 torrents of children porn through my network im fine....

I use Fon...

So... 49 torrents of child porn is ok then?

 

[Eeezee]

I'm fairly certain the federal law is in regards to secured wireless networks. It should obviously be illegal to use someone's connection without their permission, just like how you can't run an extension cord from the neighbor's house to your own and use their electricity. But honestly, anyone who knows how to setup a wireless connection knows how to setup wireless security. Anyone who doesn't know but does it themselves anyway is using the manual, which will have explicit instructions on how to enable the wireless security. You'd have to be stupid to assume that you're the only person in the world that can connect to an insecure wireless router.

If you want to let your neighbors use your connection, then give them access. If you don't want strangers using your wireless connection, keep it locked down! It's as simple as that. No one should be arrested for connecting to an unlocked router. You can bring up analogies about stolen cars all you want, but it's just not the same. Every time you use your car there's a chance that you'll forget to unlock it; your router does not magically lose its security settings when you connect to the internet. If you intentionally leave either of them unlocked (and in the case of the car, leave the key in the ignition), then you're practically begging someone to use them.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I'm fairly certain the federal law is in regards to secured wireless networks. It should obviously be illegal to use someone's connection without their permission, just like how you can't run an extension cord from the neighbor's house to your own and use their electricity. But honestly, anyone who knows how to setup a wireless connection knows how to setup wireless security. Anyone who doesn't know but does it themselves anyway is using the manual, which will have explicit instructions on how to enable the wireless security. You'd have to be stupid to assume that you're the only person in the world that can connect to an insecure wireless router.

If you want to let your neighbors use your connection, then give them access. If you don't want strangers using your wireless connection, keep it locked down! It's as simple as that. No one should be arrested for connecting to an unlocked router. You can bring up analogies about stolen cars all you want, but it's just not the same. Every time you use your car there's a chance that you'll forget to unlock it; your router does not magically lose its security settings when you connect to the internet. If you intentionally leave either of them unlocked (and in the case of the car, leave the key in the ignition), then you're practically begging someone to use them.

Sorry, but no matter what it is, "unlocked" is NOT an invitation, nor is it justification to use or steal anything.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I'm fairly certain the federal law is in regards to secured wireless networks. It should obviously be illegal to use someone's connection without their permission, just like how you can't run an extension cord from the neighbor's house to your own and use their electricity. But honestly, anyone who knows how to setup a wireless connection knows how to setup wireless security. Anyone who doesn't know but does it themselves anyway is using the manual, which will have explicit instructions on how to enable the wireless security. You'd have to be stupid to assume that you're the only person in the world that can connect to an insecure wireless router.

If you want to let your neighbors use your connection, then give them access. If you don't want strangers using your wireless connection, keep it locked down! It's as simple as that. No one should be arrested for connecting to an unlocked router. You can bring up analogies about stolen cars all you want, but it's just not the same. Every time you use your car there's a chance that you'll forget to unlock it; your router does not magically lose its security settings when you connect to the internet. If you intentionally leave either of them unlocked (and in the case of the car, leave the key in the ignition), then you're practically begging someone to use them.

Sorry, but no matter what it is, "unlocked" is NOT an invitation, nor is it justification to use or steal anything.

It's not a justification, but you have no one to blame but yourself if you leave it unlocked.

If I intentionally leave my car unlocked, parked on the street with the engine running overnight, then I expect it to be gone the following morning. If I wanted my wireless internet to be leeched, then I would disable the security settings. In either case, I can't claim to be a victim, and neither can you.

 

[yllus]

I leave my wi-fi network open for plausible deniability. 😛

 

[ryan256]

If I can connect to your network from my apartment without having to hack it or sniff it in any way then its fair game.

 

[slag]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt

Legally its still a crime, just like walking into someone's house without permission is treaspassing but breaking in is breaking and entering

<sigh> NO. Why do so many people on this board insist on getting into legal argument when they have no idea what they're talking about?

You are comparing apples and oranges. BOTH crimes you mention involve entering someone else's property. If you use someone's wireless signal, you are NOT entering their property. You are utilizing a radio signal which is currently INSIDE YOUR PROPERTY. There is no theft and no trespassing. If someone somehow transported a television inside your house, you could watch the TV without it being a crime because the TV is on your property.

Like the example above, if some guy is growing oranges to sell, and the tree overhangs your house, and some drop onto your lawn and you eat one or two, you can't be accused of stealing the oranges. The oranges are on your property and the dude lost ownership of them regardless of where they came from when they landed on your lawn.

Your argument focuses on where the signal is. In your mind, does it matter if the signal is encrypted or not? The signal is still on your property, whether its encrypted or not. Does hacking the signal if its encrypted matter, whether its on your property or not?

 

[manowar821]

I once used my neighbors internetz for about 1.5 months straight before I realized it. Turns out I kicked out the power cable to our wireless router, so my comp connected to theirs instead, and I never noticed. I only found out when it stopped working mysteriously, because the neighbor moved out, taking his router with him, obviously...

 

[SKORPI0]

Originally posted by: yllus
I leave my wi-fi network open for plausible deniability. 😛

Bittorent? 😉

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Besides...this legal argument we're having is bogus and you all should know it.

Anybody dumb enough to leave their WiFi unsecured is not going to notice/track a leech, and anyone dumb enough to get caught stealing WiFi doesn't deserve the privilege.

If you're smart, leeching a person's WiFi should be untraceable for that person; common identifiers such as your MAC and computer name can be spoofed.

For what it's worth I run an open access point and capture all the traffic for later analysis.

Lots of good stuff in dem packets. Passwords, account information, cookies...lots of good stuff. Sometimes for fun I'll sit between the client and server.

But that's not hacking right? They chose to connect to the network. Since I own and operate said network anything they send/receive I OWN.

I assume you're being sarcastic, but even if you got people's passwords because they were using your network, you obviously couldn't legally use them to access the person's accounts without their permission.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I'm fairly certain the federal law is in regards to secured wireless networks. It should obviously be illegal to use someone's connection without their permission, just like how you can't run an extension cord from the neighbor's house to your own and use their electricity. But honestly, anyone who knows how to setup a wireless connection knows how to setup wireless security. Anyone who doesn't know but does it themselves anyway is using the manual, which will have explicit instructions on how to enable the wireless security. You'd have to be stupid to assume that you're the only person in the world that can connect to an insecure wireless router.

If you want to let your neighbors use your connection, then give them access. If you don't want strangers using your wireless connection, keep it locked down! It's as simple as that. No one should be arrested for connecting to an unlocked router. You can bring up analogies about stolen cars all you want, but it's just not the same. Every time you use your car there's a chance that you'll forget to unlock it; your router does not magically lose its security settings when you connect to the internet. If you intentionally leave either of them unlocked (and in the case of the car, leave the key in the ignition), then you're practically begging someone to use them.

Sorry, but no matter what it is, "unlocked" is NOT an invitation, nor is it justification to use or steal anything.

It's not a justification, but you have no one to blame but yourself if you leave it unlocked.

If I intentionally leave my car unlocked, parked on the street with the engine running overnight, then I expect it to be gone the following morning. If I wanted my wireless internet to be leeched, then I would disable the security settings. In either case, I can't claim to be a victim, and neither can you.

Most people who leave their wi-fi unlocked do so out of ignorance. Not intentionally. It's the same as if you left your car locked accidentally or, per chance, didn't even know it had locks.

At any rate, it's wrong. Everyone knows that but some vainly try justifying it.

Golden Rule, folks. The Golden Rule.

 

[chambersc]

..

 

[jr22jess]

If people want to leave the network open then they obviously don't care too much because it isn't that hard to lock it up.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: chambersc
Emphatically against using wifi networks that aren't yours. I hope it would be made illegal and is enforced vigorously.

Enforcing something like that almost impossible.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
If you've kept up with what I'm saying, I've dropped the legal argument because I am in no way a legal expert. I know more than some, but hardly enough to justify going off on one of my all-caps rants. Unlike our friend SVT Cobra up there, when I'm completely wrong and I've been called on it, I'm willing to concede.

Until there's a precedent for someone getting arrested for using an unencrypted wireless signal

(I'm not sure I count the Florida case, as there's a huge difference between utilizing a signal from in your own house and driving to someone else's place and parking outside of it to use their network) I'm still not going to worry about it, however. When push comes to shove there simply is no black and white law specifically regarding this issue.

Legal precedent has been set:

5-24-2007 Wi-Fi thief avoids jail

A Michigan man avoided a five year jail term after he was found guilty of checking his e-mails using the Wi-Fi connection of a coffee shop.

The bizarre story took place when Sam Paterson stopped near a coffee shop, that offers its clients unsecured internet access, to check his e-mails.

He quickly checked his e-mails when Police Chief Andrew Milanowski came over and asked Paterson what he was doing.

Paterson, beleiving he was doing nothing wrong, told him he was checking his e-mails.

At that point, the police officer informed Paterson he was going to be charged with stealing internet access.
The man was very surprised at the accusation however following some research the Police chief found out that Paterson was breaking a 1979 hacking laws, even though Wi-Fi internet has been around just a few years.

Coffee shop owner Donna May was also perplexed at the odd charges against Paterson.

The court found Paterson guilty and fined him $400 together with 40 hours of community service.

The law, introduced in 1979 to protect Internet and private-network users from hackers, and amended in 2000 to include wireless systems, makes piggybacking off of Wi-Fi networks, even those without a password, illegal.

For Peterson, who's never had a criminal record, the experience has been an eye-opening one.

"All over the TV, all the commercials and whatnot you see, they're all trying to get you to buy all these laptops and things that are wireless," he said. "They're trying to get you to buy this wireless stuff because you can go anywhere and still be connected.

"Well, they don't happen to tell you that it's illegal," he continued. "And I guess obviously you're just supposed to know that."

It's up to the consumer to figure that out, said Hopkins, the prosecuting attorney.

"When you buy a Wi-Fi equipped device, it's your responsibility to find out what you can and can't legally do with that device, just as it would be if you were buying a radar detector or any other piece of electronics," she said.

"People should be aware that if we come across them, and it is a violation of the statute, then we will enforce the statute."
================================================
This needs to go to the Supreme Court or change the name of the U.S.

 

[Roguestar]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Legally it's not stealing. The wireless signal is technically in your house, so you are free to use it. This is assuming it's unencrypted, if it's a secure network then you're not allowed to use it, because you'd have to hack into it to gain access, which is illegal.

Morally speaking, it's a lot more ambiguous. You'll have to ask yourself that question.

Here in the UK, it is illegal. Gaining access to an unsecured wireless network breaks the Computer Misuse Act and there has been three or four prosecutions related to it in the last year.

 

[sswingle]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
If you've kept up with what I'm saying, I've dropped the legal argument because I am in no way a legal expert. I know more than some, but hardly enough to justify going off on one of my all-caps rants. Unlike our friend SVT Cobra up there, when I'm completely wrong and I've been called on it, I'm willing to concede.

Until there's a precedent for someone getting arrested for using an unencrypted wireless signal

(I'm not sure I count the Florida case, as there's a huge difference between utilizing a signal from in your own house and driving to someone else's place and parking outside of it to use their network) I'm still not going to worry about it, however. When push comes to shove there simply is no black and white law specifically regarding this issue.

Legal precedent has been set:

5-24-2007 Wi-Fi thief avoids jail

A Michigan man avoided a five year jail term after he was found guilty of checking his e-mails using the Wi-Fi connection of a coffee shop.

The bizarre story took place when Sam Paterson stopped near a coffee shop, that offers its clients unsecured internet access, to check his e-mails.

He quickly checked his e-mails when Police Chief Andrew Milanowski came over and asked Paterson what he was doing.

Paterson, beleiving he was doing nothing wrong, told him he was checking his e-mails.

At that point, the police officer informed Paterson he was going to be charged with stealing internet access.
The man was very surprised at the accusation however following some research the Police chief found out that Paterson was breaking a 1979 hacking laws, even though Wi-Fi internet has been around just a few years.

Coffee shop owner Donna May was also perplexed at the odd charges against Paterson.

The court found Paterson guilty and fined him $400 together with 40 hours of community service.

The law, introduced in 1979 to protect Internet and private-network users from hackers, and amended in 2000 to include wireless systems, makes piggybacking off of Wi-Fi networks, even those without a password, illegal.

For Peterson, who's never had a criminal record, the experience has been an eye-opening one.

"All over the TV, all the commercials and whatnot you see, they're all trying to get you to buy all these laptops and things that are wireless," he said. "They're trying to get you to buy this wireless stuff because you can go anywhere and still be connected.

"Well, they don't happen to tell you that it's illegal," he continued. "And I guess obviously you're just supposed to know that."

It's up to the consumer to figure that out, said Hopkins, the prosecuting attorney.

"When you buy a Wi-Fi equipped device, it's your responsibility to find out what you can and can't legally do with that device, just as it would be if you were buying a radar detector or any other piece of electronics," she said.

"People should be aware that if we come across them, and it is a violation of the statute, then we will enforce the statute."
================================================
This needs to go to the Supreme Court or change the name of the U.S.

WTF? If the coffeeshop owner allowed the use and were not against him using it, how is it breaking a law?

Thats like going over to a friends house, they say I can use their wireless, and then I do, and get charged with using someone elses wireless.

 

[Roguestar]

Not really, the owner wasn't aware it was being used and as such cannot grant permission. Therefore: unauthorized access.

There was a thread on that news story last week.