How do we solve the current quagmire in Iraq?

[NeenerNeener]

Enjoy Star Wars! There are actually a few jabs at the Bush administration in the movie! ~

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Why would someone join a war they fervently disagree with?

No one is asking you to. You seem to think that people who support the effort should have to join - so if you are against the war - why don't you become a human shield like others did so-as to stop it?

Basically you are using the same old tired "logic" the left trots out to whine about supporters of the effort. Just because we support something does not mean we have to join it. Likewise just because you dislike the war doesn't mean you have to join the human shields or other such efforts to stop the war.

Oh well, it's always interesting to see leftists trot out this tripe.

CsG

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: rchiu
Only ignorant people compare Iraq with Japan and Germany. We never had to deal with internal conflicts within those countries.

Bingo!

"internal conflicts"? What do you mean by that? Why does that mean no comparison can be made even if whatever you mean by "internal conflicts" is true?


***

OP - there is no quagmire. The only thing to fix is the security of Iraq and we are doing that so other reconstruction efforts can move along.

CsG

Don't tell me you don't know Iraq is consists of Kurds and Arab ethnic group and within Iraq, there is Shi?a Muslim and Sunni Muslim. And don't tell me you don't know these groups have been fighting amongst themselves for a long time.

Do you think it is the same thing to rebuild a country when there is no internal power struggle, and rebuild a country with three major groups trying to gain power, using any possible mean including assassination, terrorist acts, in this political vacuum created by the war?

I guess to people who doesn?t read history, who doesn?t understand politics or know what?s going on out side of the US, everything is simple, black and white, and easy to do as long as you put enough money and soldier in the situation.

 

[ForThePeople]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?

I have one idea.

I volunteer cwjerome, CAD, Rip and a few others as infrantrymen. They believe so strongly in Bush's glorious war and the righteousness of freeing Iraqis, it is quite obvious that their recruitment papers got lost in the mail. So I'll resend them so they can go and really support the troops, you know, by actually giving supporting fire and drawing bullets away from other troops.

What's that, CAD, you have a new baby and can't just put your life on hold? Too f'in bad. There's tons of other people in Iraq, right now, who haven't seen their children in years. Sacrifice for the good of your country, teach your kids patriotism of the un-hollow kind.

What's that, you already served? Good. But you may not have gotten the memo... we need you again. So please enlist ASAP.

Or you could do what you do now and let other people get shot at on your behalf. As Bill Maher said "but Bill, I put a support the troops ribbon on my Tahoe, what more can any man do?"

It is immoral to allow other men to get shot at in your behalf. It is immoral to make other people kill on your behalf.

The difference between red and blue states isn't patriotism... it's hypocrisy.

We in the blue states don't think this war is just and don't want to be shot at or killed for Bush... and so we don't want anyone else to be shot at either.

You merely think the war is just as long as other people take the bullets and other families receive the caskets.

How's that for family values? How's that for morals you lying, hypocrital, chickensh*t little bast*rds...

I don't see you joining the human sheilds so you can take your asinine whining and shove it.

CsG

That's the best you have? Human shields for what, insurgents? Why would I want to get in the way of the military doing their job?

No, I support the troops by not lying to push them into an unnecessary war and then failing to properly plan for it nor give them the right equipment.

But, like Rumsfeld said, "hey, troops, go f*ck yourselves," oops I mean "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

And when I find out that I've been lied to I actually get angry and want something done. It's people like you who go "oops, your bad, sorry that you lied to me" that make me sick.

But hey, you're perfectly comfortable while other people kill and get killed in your name. And over a pack of lies. That have made all of us less safe.

I hope your kid grows up to see you for the coward, liar, and bully that you really are.

 

[Steeplerot]

lol, maybe the neocons should stick to freeperville today.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?

I have one idea.

I volunteer cwjerome, CAD, Rip and a few others as infrantrymen. They believe so strongly in Bush's glorious war and the righteousness of freeing Iraqis, it is quite obvious that their recruitment papers got lost in the mail. So I'll resend them so they can go and really support the troops, you know, by actually giving supporting fire and drawing bullets away from other troops.

What's that, CAD, you have a new baby and can't just put your life on hold? Too f'in bad. There's tons of other people in Iraq, right now, who haven't seen their children in years. Sacrifice for the good of your country, teach your kids patriotism of the un-hollow kind.

What's that, you already served? Good. But you may not have gotten the memo... we need you again. So please enlist ASAP.

Or you could do what you do now and let other people get shot at on your behalf. As Bill Maher said "but Bill, I put a support the troops ribbon on my Tahoe, what more can any man do?"

It is immoral to allow other men to get shot at in your behalf. It is immoral to make other people kill on your behalf.

The difference between red and blue states isn't patriotism... it's hypocrisy.

We in the blue states don't think this war is just and don't want to be shot at or killed for Bush... and so we don't want anyone else to be shot at either.

You merely think the war is just as long as other people take the bullets and other families receive the caskets.

How's that for family values? How's that for morals you lying, hypocrital, chickensh*t little bast*rds...

I don't see you joining the human sheilds so you can take your asinine whining and shove it.

CsG

That's the best you have? Human shields for what, insurgents? Why would I want to get in the way of the military doing their job?

No, I support the troops by not lying to push them into an unnecessary war and then failing to properly plan for it nor give them the right equipment.

But, like Rumsfeld said, "hey, troops, go f*ck yourselves," oops I mean "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

And when I find out that I've been lied to I actually get angry and want something done. It's people like you who go "oops, your bad, sorry that you lied to me" that make me sick.

But hey, you're perfectly comfortable while other people kill and get killed in your name. And over a pack of lies. That have made all of us less safe.

I hope your kid grows up to see you for the coward, liar, and bully that you really are.

Haha, what'd you do to this little whiner that's made him so bitter, CADsortaGUY? Sure seem to have riled the little guy up by expressing your - *gasp* - opinion.

 

[Steeplerot]

CaD has no opinion just distraction. I think he is some perl script made by freepers to troll boards.....

freedom on the march...

iraq is a paradise....

torture...wha?

big goverment libs...

unions bad...

etc etc etc..whatever rush and the other punduits vomits forth into the mic that day

 

[yllus]

As opposed to your well-backed up claims, right Steeplerot? So...care to share how all/most/at least some blacks in American jails are there just because they're black?

 

[ForThePeople]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?

I have one idea.

I volunteer cwjerome, CAD, Rip and a few others as infrantrymen. They believe so strongly in Bush's glorious war and the righteousness of freeing Iraqis, it is quite obvious that their recruitment papers got lost in the mail. So I'll resend them so they can go and really support the troops, you know, by actually giving supporting fire and drawing bullets away from other troops.

What's that, CAD, you have a new baby and can't just put your life on hold? Too f'in bad. There's tons of other people in Iraq, right now, who haven't seen their children in years. Sacrifice for the good of your country, teach your kids patriotism of the un-hollow kind.

What's that, you already served? Good. But you may not have gotten the memo... we need you again. So please enlist ASAP.

Or you could do what you do now and let other people get shot at on your behalf. As Bill Maher said "but Bill, I put a support the troops ribbon on my Tahoe, what more can any man do?"

It is immoral to allow other men to get shot at in your behalf. It is immoral to make other people kill on your behalf.

The difference between red and blue states isn't patriotism... it's hypocrisy.

We in the blue states don't think this war is just and don't want to be shot at or killed for Bush... and so we don't want anyone else to be shot at either.

You merely think the war is just as long as other people take the bullets and other families receive the caskets.

How's that for family values? How's that for morals you lying, hypocrital, chickensh*t little bast*rds...

I don't see you joining the human sheilds so you can take your asinine whining and shove it.

CsG

That's the best you have? Human shields for what, insurgents? Why would I want to get in the way of the military doing their job?

No, I support the troops by not lying to push them into an unnecessary war and then failing to properly plan for it nor give them the right equipment.

But, like Rumsfeld said, "hey, troops, go f*ck yourselves," oops I mean "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

And when I find out that I've been lied to I actually get angry and want something done. It's people like you who go "oops, your bad, sorry that you lied to me" that make me sick.

But hey, you're perfectly comfortable while other people kill and get killed in your name. And over a pack of lies. That have made all of us less safe.

I hope your kid grows up to see you for the coward, liar, and bully that you really are.

Haha, what'd you do to this little whiner that's made him so bitter, CADsortaGUY? Sure seem to have riled the little guy up by expressing your - *gasp* - opinion.

His "opinion" has cost the lives of 1700 other Americans. Hell, it's just an opinion, it's not like people are actually getting shot at or anything?

Nothing is more pro-family than killing a husband and father over a pack of lies. And applauding the people who lie to you. While other people bear the brunt of the consequences for your opinion and Bush's lies.

And what about you - I presume you're posting from Iraq?

What's that, you're not? Figures.

"I support the troops by telling those evil liberal bast*rds not to bring you back home any sooner"

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Enjoy Star Wars! There are actually a few jabs at the Bush administration in the movie! ~

I could see that coming in the last movie and I saw all the freeper types on the web get into a tizzy about it before anyone else...so defensive they are..

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: ForThePeople
His "opinion" has cost the lives of 1700 other Americans. Hell, it's just an opinion, it's not like people are actually getting shot at or anything?

Nothing is more pro-family than killing a husband and father over a pack of lies. And applauding the people who lie to you. While other people bear the brunt of the consequences for your opinion and Bush's lies.

And what about you - I presume you're posting from Iraq?

What's that, you're not? Figures.

"I support the troops by telling those evil liberal bast*rds not to bring you back home any sooner"

And what about you - are you posting on behalf of those in the military? Sunni Iraqis? Shiite Iraqis? Kurdish Iraqis? People in Washington, D.C.?

Perhaps we should leave it to you to decide who should be allowed to hold an opinion in America? Maybe that way we can make sure nobody had 'dangerous' ones that can get Americans killed?

What's that, you're posting on an Internet messageboard instead - not even on topic, but instead talking about other poster's personal lives out of the blue and cursing them like a teenager? Certainly this proves that you are someone whose opinion should carry merit...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: rchiu
Only ignorant people compare Iraq with Japan and Germany. We never had to deal with internal conflicts within those countries.

Bingo!

"internal conflicts"? What do you mean by that? Why does that mean no comparison can be made even if whatever you mean by "internal conflicts" is true?


***

OP - there is no quagmire. The only thing to fix is the security of Iraq and we are doing that so other reconstruction efforts can move along.

CsG

Don't tell me you don't know Iraq is consists of Kurds and Arab ethnic group and within Iraq, there is Shi?a Muslim and Sunni Muslim. And don't tell me you don't know these groups have been fighting amongst themselves for a long time.

Do you think it is the same thing to rebuild a country when there is no internal power struggle, and rebuild a country with three major groups trying to gain power, using any possible mean including assassination, terrorist acts, in this political vacuum created by the war?

I guess to people who doesn?t read history, who doesn?t understand politics or know what?s going on out side of the US, everything is simple, black and white, and easy to do as long as you put enough money and soldier in the situation.

Don't tell me all Japanese are the same or that all Germans are the same. They have sects too. So, they have been fighting for a long time. Wow! and? That somehow disqualifies iraq's reconstruction being compared to Japan or Germany's? :roll:
Ofcourse they aren't exactly the same - no one has claimed every detail is the same. However there are alot of similarities and lessons we learned during those two reconstructions can be used during this one.
Yeah, I suppose to some who choose ignorance - Iraq's reconstruction can't be compared but those who do look at history know that many lessons were learned and can be used during this one.

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: ForThePeople

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?

I have one idea.

I volunteer cwjerome, CAD, Rip and a few others as infrantrymen. They believe so strongly in Bush's glorious war and the righteousness of freeing Iraqis, it is quite obvious that their recruitment papers got lost in the mail. So I'll resend them so they can go and really support the troops, you know, by actually giving supporting fire and drawing bullets away from other troops.

What's that, CAD, you have a new baby and can't just put your life on hold? Too f'in bad. There's tons of other people in Iraq, right now, who haven't seen their children in years. Sacrifice for the good of your country, teach your kids patriotism of the un-hollow kind.

What's that, you already served? Good. But you may not have gotten the memo... we need you again. So please enlist ASAP.

Or you could do what you do now and let other people get shot at on your behalf. As Bill Maher said "but Bill, I put a support the troops ribbon on my Tahoe, what more can any man do?"

It is immoral to allow other men to get shot at in your behalf. It is immoral to make other people kill on your behalf.

The difference between red and blue states isn't patriotism... it's hypocrisy.

We in the blue states don't think this war is just and don't want to be shot at or killed for Bush... and so we don't want anyone else to be shot at either.

You merely think the war is just as long as other people take the bullets and other families receive the caskets.

How's that for family values? How's that for morals you lying, hypocrital, chickensh*t little bast*rds...

I don't see you joining the human sheilds so you can take your asinine whining and shove it.

CsG

That's the best you have? Human shields for what, insurgents? Why would I want to get in the way of the military doing their job?

No, I support the troops by not lying to push them into an unnecessary war and then failing to properly plan for it nor give them the right equipment.

But, like Rumsfeld said, "hey, troops, go f*ck yourselves," oops I mean "you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

And when I find out that I've been lied to I actually get angry and want something done. It's people like you who go "oops, your bad, sorry that you lied to me" that make me sick.

But hey, you're perfectly comfortable while other people kill and get killed in your name. And over a pack of lies. That have made all of us less safe.

I hope your kid grows up to see you for the coward, liar, and bully that you really are.

Haha, what'd you do to this little whiner that's made him so bitter, CADsortaGUY? Sure seem to have riled the little guy up by expressing your - *gasp* - opinion.

Yeah, leftists don't usually take kindly to people destroying their "logic" about having to go to Iraq if you support the effort.

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: ForThePeople
His "opinion" has cost the lives of 1700 other Americans. Hell, it's just an opinion, it's not like people are actually getting shot at or anything?

Nothing is more pro-family than killing a husband and father over a pack of lies. And applauding the people who lie to you. While other people bear the brunt of the consequences for your opinion and Bush's lies.

And what about you - I presume you're posting from Iraq?

What's that, you're not? Figures.

"I support the troops by telling those evil liberal bast*rds not to bring you back home any sooner"

And what about you - are you posting on behalf of those in the military? Sunni Iraqis? Shiite Iraqis? Kurdish Iraqis? People in Washington, D.C.?

Perhaps we should leave it to you to decide who should be allowed to hold an opinion in America? Maybe that way we can make sure nobody had 'dangerous' ones that can get Americans killed?

What's that, you're posting on an Internet messageboard instead - not even on topic, but instead talking about other poster's personal lives out of the blue and cursing them like a teenager? Certainly this proves that you are someone whose opinion should carry merit...

hehe :thumbsup:

CsG

 

[Engineer]

Answer: Invade Iran.

 

[NeenerNeener]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: rchiu
Only ignorant people compare Iraq with Japan and Germany. We never had to deal with internal conflicts within those countries.

Bingo!

"internal conflicts"? What do you mean by that? Why does that mean no comparison can be made even if whatever you mean by "internal conflicts" is true?


***

OP - there is no quagmire. The only thing to fix is the security of Iraq and we are doing that so other reconstruction efforts can move along.

CsG

Don't tell me you don't know Iraq is consists of Kurds and Arab ethnic group and within Iraq, there is Shi?a Muslim and Sunni Muslim. And don't tell me you don't know these groups have been fighting amongst themselves for a long time.

Do you think it is the same thing to rebuild a country when there is no internal power struggle, and rebuild a country with three major groups trying to gain power, using any possible mean including assassination, terrorist acts, in this political vacuum created by the war?

I guess to people who doesn?t read history, who doesn?t understand politics or know what?s going on out side of the US, everything is simple, black and white, and easy to do as long as you put enough money and soldier in the situation.

Don't tell me all Japanese are the same or that all Germans are the same. They have sects too. So, they have been fighting for a long time. Wow! and? That somehow disqualifies iraq's reconstruction being compared to Japan or Germany's? :roll:
Ofcourse they aren't exactly the same - no one has claimed every detail is the same. However there are alot of similarities and lessons we learned during those two reconstructions can be used during this one.
Yeah, I suppose to some who choose ignorance - Iraq's reconstruction can't be compared but those who do look at history know that many lessons were learned and can be used during this one.

CsG

It's not like people learned the "lessons" of Vietnam. Except, to control the media, or that it was the "liberal's fault we lost", or deep throats. This all goes both ways. It's spin.

Let's try this...Assume we were invaded by some nation and our government was toppled. A state of "lawlessness" was declared here. What would happen? What would we do? Wouldn't some of us be insurgents, some of us fanatics, some of us cowards? Wouldn't we resist the occupation? Wouldn't we fight amongst ourselves for power and influence in the new government?

Again, I'll be waiting for the Iraqi governments "permission" for our troops to come home.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?

We move out the govt of Iraq collapses and we are back in there in 12 months again.
The situation is to stay until Iraq can sustain itself.

Not if we can throw the Republicans out of office. I would support removing all troops from Iraq immediately. If we are attacked, then we can go back in, you know, the way it used to be before Bush and his oil buddies got into office.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Enjoy Star Wars! There are actually a few jabs at the Bush administration in the movie! ~

Heh, I thought I was the only one that recongized that.

 

[NeenerNeener]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Answer: Invade Iran.

That may be coming.

 

[NeenerNeener]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Enjoy Star Wars! There are actually a few jabs at the Bush administration in the movie! ~

Heh, I thought I was the only one that recongized that.

Yeah I loved when Anakin was getting all pumped up to fight. "If you're not with me, then you are my enemy." Hahahhahah!

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: arsbanned


Not if we can throw the Republicans out of office. I would support removing all troops from Iraq immediately. If we are attacked, then we can go back in, you know, the way it used to be before Bush and his oil buddies got into office.

What the iraqis need for peace in their country is goodwill from us, not bombs, not lies.

They see the lies also, how could they trust us? There is no accountability. no truth, just more dead and a rule by forigeners at the end of a gun barrel.

Haven't they had enough of this? Where is the new start? There is none, more of the same.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Don't tell me all Japanese are the same or that all Germans are the same. They have sects too. So, they have been fighting for a long time. Wow! and? That somehow disqualifies iraq's reconstruction being compared to Japan or Germany's? :roll:
Ofcourse they aren't exactly the same - no one has claimed every detail is the same. However there are alot of similarities and lessons we learned during those two reconstructions can be used during this one.
Yeah, I suppose to some who choose ignorance - Iraq's reconstruction can't be compared but those who do look at history know that many lessons were learned and can be used during this one.

CsG

Heh, yeah right, Japan and German has sect like the Kurds and Sunni and Shiite Muslims who have been killing each other over the century almost to the point that one group (Kurds) is close to calling for independence . You people talked about Saddam Hussein killed millions of Kurds, well Kurds was rebeling against Iraq led by Saddam's Sunni government. Now that the Kurds gained power, you think they won't prevent Sunni trying to gain power again? And you think Sunni is just going to sit around and let Shiite and Kurds walk all over them?

And don't try to play down the importance of this. Racial/ethnic struggle is a huge problem. When America invaded Iraq, this problem becomes our problem. American go through a civil war and countless civil instablity trying to get different people equal right and co-exist peacefully. In Iraq we are talking about 3 groups that all have significant percentage of population, and one group supposedly killed more than a million of another group as recent as 20 years ago. And you tell me that is not going to effect the rebuilding effort in Iraq.

I suppose some people are so desperate to make Iraq a success store so they choose to ignore the problem we are facing there. Some of them event label anyone reporting any bad thing in Iraq "liberal", "left" like suger coating the whole thing is gonna make the insurgence go away. Well, sorry to tell you this, but a big part of the instability is because of all these internal conflicts they have in Iraq and it's not going away. We can help them build a government and everything may looks ok for the few years, and the government can be overtaken all of sudden and one group is going to take over power and the history will repeat itself. We the American tax payer not only have to pay our hard earn money for a war based on 'WMD' that wasn't there. We are now stuck with a country with many internal problems, and we have to solve it to save our face. And the worst of all, the president who took us down this path never took responsbility, his administration nerver took responsibility for the wrong intelligence they decided to use, either because their own agenda, or pure incompetance.

 

[Willoughbyva]

What is a chicken hawk?

EDIT: nevermind http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chicken+hawk&r=f

 

[NeenerNeener]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Don't tell me all Japanese are the same or that all Germans are the same. They have sects too. So, they have been fighting for a long time. Wow! and? That somehow disqualifies iraq's reconstruction being compared to Japan or Germany's? :roll:
Ofcourse they aren't exactly the same - no one has claimed every detail is the same. However there are alot of similarities and lessons we learned during those two reconstructions can be used during this one.
Yeah, I suppose to some who choose ignorance - Iraq's reconstruction can't be compared but those who do look at history know that many lessons were learned and can be used during this one.

CsG

Heh, yeah right, Japan and German has sect like the Kurds and Sunni and Shiite Muslims who have been killing each other over the century almost to the point that one group (Kurds) is close to calling for independence . You people talked about Saddam Hussein killed millions of Kurds, well Kurds was rebeling against Iraq led by Saddam's Sunni government. Now that the Kurds gained power, you think they won't prevent Sunni trying to gain power again? And you think Sunni is just going to sit around and let Shiite and Kurds walk all over them?

And don't try to play down the importance of this. Racial/ethnic struggle is a huge problem. When America invaded Iraq, this problem becomes our problem. American go through a civil war and countless civil instablity trying to get different people equal right and co-exist peacefully. In Iraq we are talking about 3 groups that all have significant percentage of population, and one group supposedly killed more than a million of another group as recent as 20 years ago. And you tell me that is not going to effect the rebuilding effort in Iraq.

I suppose some people are so desperate to make Iraq a success store so they choose to ignore the problem we are facing there. Some of them event label anyone reporting any bad thing in Iraq "liberal", "left" like suger coating the whole thing is gonna make the insurgence go away. Well, sorry to tell you this, but a big part of the instability is because of all these internal conflicts they have in Iraq and it's not going away. We can help them build a government and everything may looks ok for the few years, and the government can be overtaken all of sudden and one group is going to take over power and the history will repeat itself. We the American tax payer not only have to pay our hard earn money for a war based on 'WMD' that wasn't there. We are now stuck with a country with many internal problems, and we have to solve it to save our face. And the worst of all, the president who took us down this path never took responsbility, his administration nerver took responsibility for the wrong intelligence they decided to use, either because their own agenda, or pure incompetance.

Just think of what will happen if Iran gets thrown into the mix! Iraq and Iran have a bad history too. Sometimes I wonder if the policy makers just hate Muslims and destablized the region just so they'd kill each other. Probably not, but I DO wonder.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: NeenerNeener

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: rchiu
Only ignorant people compare Iraq with Japan and Germany. We never had to deal with internal conflicts within those countries.

Bingo!

"internal conflicts"? What do you mean by that? Why does that mean no comparison can be made even if whatever you mean by "internal conflicts" is true?


***

OP - there is no quagmire. The only thing to fix is the security of Iraq and we are doing that so other reconstruction efforts can move along.

CsG

Don't tell me you don't know Iraq is consists of Kurds and Arab ethnic group and within Iraq, there is Shi?a Muslim and Sunni Muslim. And don't tell me you don't know these groups have been fighting amongst themselves for a long time.

Do you think it is the same thing to rebuild a country when there is no internal power struggle, and rebuild a country with three major groups trying to gain power, using any possible mean including assassination, terrorist acts, in this political vacuum created by the war?

I guess to people who doesn?t read history, who doesn?t understand politics or know what?s going on out side of the US, everything is simple, black and white, and easy to do as long as you put enough money and soldier in the situation.

Don't tell me all Japanese are the same or that all Germans are the same. They have sects too. So, they have been fighting for a long time. Wow! and? That somehow disqualifies iraq's reconstruction being compared to Japan or Germany's? :roll:
Ofcourse they aren't exactly the same - no one has claimed every detail is the same. However there are alot of similarities and lessons we learned during those two reconstructions can be used during this one.
Yeah, I suppose to some who choose ignorance - Iraq's reconstruction can't be compared but those who do look at history know that many lessons were learned and can be used during this one.

CsG

It's not like people learned the "lessons" of Vietnam. Except, to control the media, or that it was the "liberal's fault we lost", or deep throats. This all goes both ways. It's spin.

Let's try this...Assume we were invaded by some nation and our government was toppled. A state of "lawlessness" was declared here. What would happen? What would we do? Wouldn't some of us be insurgents, some of us fanatics, some of us cowards? Wouldn't we resist the occupation? Wouldn't we fight amongst ourselves for power and influence in the new government?

Again, I'll be waiting for the Iraqi governments "permission" for our troops to come home.

Ofcourse there would be power struggles - those sorts of things happen in a "power vacuum"(which would be the case if the US gov't was toppled). However that doesn't mean that "suicide bombers" aren't terrorists. You can try to think of them as heros if you wish but someone who purposely takes the life of innocent people like homicide bombers do is not a hero in any sense of the word. Blowing one's self up to kill innocents is a cowardly act.
Also if the "occupying" force was working towards setting up a new free form of gov't and had displaced a tyrannical dictatorship - I don't think I'd be fighting against the occupying force - I'd be fighting against those that wanted to return to the dictatorship form of government. Sure, some people would like the dictatorship no doubt - but they are hardly "freedom fighters" when seek to terrorize the nation's people instead of work towards a free form of governance.

CsG