How do we solve the current quagmire in Iraq?

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NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
414
0
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Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?
 
G

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?
Click to expand...

We move out the govt of Iraq collapses and we are back in there in 12 months again.
The situation is to stay until Iraq can sustain itself.

 
G

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
And...what is your benchmark for a self sustaining Iraq?
Click to expand...

Doesnt matter what my benchmark is, only what the govt of Iraq's is.

 
E

ECUHITMAN

Senior member
Jun 21, 2001
815
0
0
Not that I disagree with you, but...

You said the exact same think in another thread. Did what you say in that one give you the idea to make this one? ;-)

Anyway, there is two different ways I can come up with an answer (not the solution to the problem). First create a 5th branch of the military. They would be made up of a variation of a SWAT team and Local Law enforcement. The USMC and Army are great at what they do, but they are really not trained (although they are trying really hard) for this type of environment. If we had some sort of Military Police branch, it might make things a bit better. It might not, I have no idea.

The second answer, would be to continue what we are doing except reduce the amount of joint Iraqi Police and US military missions. Once the Iraqi police force gets going things will be better for the Iraqi people, and just maybe they will not look at them as being the evil troops from the West.

Well that?s all I got.
 
N

NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
414
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"You said the exact same think in another thread. Did what you say in that one give you the idea to make this one? ;-) "

Yup :)
 
N

NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
414
0
0
"Doesnt matter what my benchmark is, only what the govt of Iraq's is. "

The government of Iraq doesn't get to choose when our troops leave.

"We move out the govt of Iraq collapses and we are back in there in 12 months again.
The situation is to stay until Iraq can sustain itself. "

You're fortune-telling. Plus, I could just as easily reverse your logic.
Iraq can't sustain itself until we leave.

Couldn't it be true that the Iraqi police are being attacked more BECAUSE of our presence?
 
E

ECUHITMAN

Senior member
Jun 21, 2001
815
0
0
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
"Doesnt matter what my benchmark is, only what the govt of Iraq's is. "

The government of Iraq doesn't get to choose when our troops leave.

"We move out the govt of Iraq collapses and we are back in there in 12 months again.
The situation is to stay until Iraq can sustain itself. "

You're fortune-telling. Plus, I could just as easily reverse your logic.
Iraq can't sustain itself until we leave.

Couldn't it be true that the Iraqi police are being attacked more BECAUSE of our presence?
Click to expand...

With out a doubt, but if you know how these scum suckers work they go after softer targets. And blowing up your self in a car next to a police requiting station is easier than blowing up next to a military convoy (although it does happen, just not as much).

Also, they view anything that is created while we are inside Iraq is just a another form of American control (even if they are Iraqi people), so of course they are going to attack them. However, just leaving will put into place a major power vacuum and in turn we run the risk of civil war and further chaos which will help create more terrorists that blame the US. Its kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don?t situation.

 
Steeplerot

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
And...what is your benchmark for a self sustaining Iraq?
Click to expand...

Doesnt matter what my benchmark is, only what the govt of Iraq's is.
Click to expand...



And with intellegence failures and the altogether poor execution of the war this does not concern you?

Where does the buck stop at? And what is your opinion of blind trust being plain irresponsible to democracy?
 
sandorski

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,691
6,255
126
The US is stuck there for awhile. Leaving or staying is totally out of the hands of Bush, but both are a losing situation. It would seem that the longer GW is President, the more brilliant his dads' Presidency looks in comparison. Bush or whoever takes over will eventually need to make the decision to leave, I suspect that Iraq will slip into a less than Democratic situation when it happens. End result will be failure, how bad is yet to be determined.
 
N

NeenerNeener

Senior member
Jun 8, 2005
414
0
0
"With out a doubt, but if you know how these scum suckers work they go after softer targets. And blowing up your self in a car next to a police requiting station is easier than blowing up next to a military convoy (although it does happen, just not as much).

Also, they view anything that is created while we are inside Iraq is just a another form of American control (even if they are Iraqi people), so of course they are going to attack them. However, just leaving will put into place a major power vacuum and in turn we run the risk of civil war and further chaos which will help create more terrorists that blame the US. Its kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don?t situation. "


Understood. We can't "just leave". What about withdrawing the troops from the green zone and having only Iraqi police, along with American air support, protect the administration? Once they have selected a president, I mean. This seems to be a next step. The only problem is, infiltrating the Iraqi police is much too easy!
 
R

Rogue

Banned
Jan 28, 2000
5,774
0
0
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Not that I disagree with you, but...

You said the exact same think in another thread. Did what you say in that one give you the idea to make this one? ;-)

Anyway, there is two different ways I can come up with an answer (not the solution to the problem). First create a 5th branch of the military. They would be made up of a variation of a SWAT team and Local Law enforcement. The USMC and Army are great at what they do, but they are really not trained (although they are trying really hard) for this type of environment. If we had some sort of Military Police branch, it might make things a bit better. It might not, I have no idea.

The second answer, would be to continue what we are doing except reduce the amount of joint Iraqi Police and US military missions. Once the Iraqi police force gets going things will be better for the Iraqi people, and just maybe they will not look at them as being the evil troops from the West.

Well that?s all I got.
Click to expand...

Ummm...there is a Military Police branch in both the USMC and the Army (I am one). Problem is, there are never enough of us and the Army has gone so far as to re-train former Artillery soldiers (because the Air Force has more or less taken their jobs away with precision munitions) as Military Police. In order to fill the ranks further, they have lowered the standards for becoming an MP since I joined over 10 years ago. There used to be stringent height standards and educational standards to be an MP, however, in an effort to build this "world police force," they lowered those standards in favor of more MPs. It reared it head as a problem in Abu Grahib as far as I'm concerned.

Beyond that, the Iraqi police force must be equipped with armored vehicles as well. They absolutely must supplant our troops presence in the streets and be well protected. Sadly, the best force in the world for the current situation in Iraq are the Israelis, but I doubt most Iraqis would ever want any advice, equipment or training from them. The mere though of Iraqis acting like Israelis probably would cause problems with public opinion. The Iraqi police forces are in the pressure cooker right now.

I also think that within each Iraqi unit, there should be an American controller who can call in air support at the drop of a hat for those guys, either that or arm the Iraqi police force with attack helicopters. Last I checked, France made some decent attack helicopters and should be offering them up for next to nothing to aid in Iraq, our tiff with France notwithstanding.

Those are my opinions on the matter. Glad to help. ;)
 
E

ECUHITMAN

Senior member
Jun 21, 2001
815
0
0
I do not believe the Iraqi people (nor the insurgents) will ever fully accept an elected president while we are occupying them.

What about turning it completely over to the UN? I know they are not very popular (with good reason), but wouldn't this help establish some credibility to the UN and relieve our troops?
 
N

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
-appeal to the UN for assistance in securing Iraq's borders or assisting with Iraqi Army training, even if the Iraqi soldiers are trained in their country rather than Iraq.

-cross your fingers and hope for a revolution in either Syria or Iran.

-vote Bush out of office.
 
E

ECUHITMAN

Senior member
Jun 21, 2001
815
0
0
Originally posted by: Rogue
Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN
Not that I disagree with you, but...

You said the exact same think in another thread. Did what you say in that one give you the idea to make this one? ;-)

Anyway, there is two different ways I can come up with an answer (not the solution to the problem). First create a 5th branch of the military. They would be made up of a variation of a SWAT team and Local Law enforcement. The USMC and Army are great at what they do, but they are really not trained (although they are trying really hard) for this type of environment. If we had some sort of Military Police branch, it might make things a bit better. It might not, I have no idea.

The second answer, would be to continue what we are doing except reduce the amount of joint Iraqi Police and US military missions. Once the Iraqi police force gets going things will be better for the Iraqi people, and just maybe they will not look at them as being the evil troops from the West.

Well that?s all I got.
Click to expand...

Ummm...there is a Military Police branch in both the USMC and the Army (I am one). Problem is, there are never enough of us and the Army has gone so far as to re-train former Artillery soldiers (because the Air Force has more or less taken their jobs away with precision munitions) as Military Police. In order to fill the ranks further, they have lowered the standards for becoming an MP since I joined over 10 years ago. There used to be stringent height standards and educational standards to be an MP, however, in an effort to build this "world police force," they lowered those standards in favor of more MPs. It reared it head as a problem in Abu Grahib as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...
Yes, I am fully aware that the USMC and Army have MPs. BUT as you said there are not enough of them (you). What I propose is a non military, more para-military branch of the armed forces (completely separate from the other branches) that are trained like our regular cops are (maybe closer to a SWAT team when handling a firefight, but as far as dealing with civilians regular cops). Would there still be problems? Sure. But if we can get away from the military mindset (no offense) and more into a civil police mindset it would be the best way. Driving around APC's does not, and will not ever give the Iraqi people the feeling that we are there to help (even know we need them in order to provide the help).

Our current armed forces are great, I would say the best, but they are not cops. The police are much better equipped for handling the people, not just the terrorists over there.

On a side note, I greatly appreciate all you and everyone in the military does. They are hard working dedicated people. I just think that there might be a better way.

 
T

TRUMPHENT

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2001
1,414
0
0
In order for Iraq to succeed, the US needs to be replaced as the prime mover. Here is an example of why.
...............
RUTBA - (Reuters) - (JT) - An Iraqi national guard unit has been disbanded after it refused to attend a military training academy overseen by US advisers, former members of the unit said on Saturday.

The soldiers, part of a 90-strong force that calls itself the Defence Force of Rutba, said they feared reprisals from locals if they were seen to have cooperated with the Americans.

We refused to go because we were afraid that when we came back to Rutba we would be killed, Taha Allawi, a former member of the unit, told Reuters. Rutba is in the far west of Iraq, close to the border with Jordan.
...................Link to article

If the Army and Mariine Corp are having difficulty in attracting warm bodies for what will be almost garanteed service in Iraq, where is a paramilitary/police force going to find volunteers?


 
judasmachine

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?
Click to expand...

We move out the govt of Iraq collapses and we are back in there in 12 months again.
The situation is to stay until Iraq can sustain itself.
Click to expand...


As much as I'd like to disagree with you, I feel we've come too far to pull out completely. If we leave, I fear there would be even more blood on our hands. :(
 
TastesLikeChicken

TastesLikeChicken

Lifer
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: NeenerNeener
Let's have a spin-off! Our current situation sucks. Let's try to come up with solutions.


Given the gross incompetence and criminality of our leaders' actions, we cannot change the damage they've done. I want Iraq to succeed as a democracy just as much as any Bush supporter. Given that, I would like to offer a solution to our current quagmire.

The Iraqi police that we have been training have sustained more casualties than our own troops. This proves their willingness to fight for their own freedom. In order for America to "succeed" by getting the hell out of there and sustaining the minimum casualties possible from here on out, and for Iraq to succeed in remaining free from tyrannical regimes. These Iraqi police must be put in charge of defending the Green Zone. Any hope of a stable government lies in that zone. We can provide air support, but ground troops must go! Secondly, we need to get our boys the he11 out of there. If the Iraqi police are not seen as merely helping "the occupiers" and instead represent the hope of Iraqi freedom from thugs, IMO, they will not be as under attack as they are now. The Iraqis will need to continue to take democracy into their own hands. Then...maybe, the Iraqis can win.

However, I sense a resistance to our pulling out for the mere reason that then the contractors would need to move out too. Then no more free oil for the profiteers.

So...Any ideas?
Click to expand...

We move out the govt of Iraq collapses and we are back in there in 12 months again.
The situation is to stay until Iraq can sustain itself.
Click to expand...
The process would be helped along as well if the left and the media used a bit of historical perspective on the situation and didn't expect some immediate gratification and didn't have this unrealistic demand for absolute perfection. They are both acting like cheerleaders for the insurgents, unwittingly or not, and it's screwing over the average Iraqi in the proces. That's sad too because it originates from partisan political BS and they are allowing their personal hatred of the US admin to push death and destruction by the insurgency even further down the path. There's already been enough death and destruction over there. Why foment it even more?
 
Steeplerot

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
problem is your historical perspective and reality is nil.

Maybe in some freeper fantasyland you can have your way, but to the chagrin of the neocons we all have to deal with that whole niggling "real world" problem..and no matter how many bombs you toss at it, it's still there.
 
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