(How) Do divining rods work?

[flhiker]

I read about four pages and got tried of the insults from those who have never witnessed it or tried it. Take a few minutes and TRY IT. The control test would be a garden hose. Walk over a area you know does not have any lines and then lay a garden hose over the same area and then walk over it holding the rods as I described. And get back to me. Insulting me gets you no points.

 

[flhiker]

I also never claimed to find water, or oil. I said it will locate water, drain or electrical lines.

 

[flhiker]

I read about four pages and got tried of the insults from those who have never witnessed it or tried it. Take a few minutes and TRY IT. The control test would be a garden hose. Walk over a area you know does not have any lines and then lay a garden hose over the same area and then walk over it holding the rods as I described. And get back to me. Insulting me gets you no points.

 

[skyking]

That's not a test. you can see a hose right there and manipulate the rods accordingly.

 

[flhiker]

That's not a test. you can see a hose right there and manipulate the rods accordingly.

YOU DO IT. Are you telling me you don't trust yourself?

 

[Ichinisan]

YOU DO IT. Are you telling me you don't trust yourself?

No one should. That leads to confirmation bias. We trust the knowledge that no one has been able to perform in a controlled blind test.

 

[flhiker]

That's not a test. you can see a hose right there and manipulate the rods accordingly.

No one should. That leads to confirmation bias. We trust the knowledge that no one has been able to perform in a controlled blind test.

LOL I'm sorry but the person I truly trust is myself. Do a blind test. Set it up how ever you think it can't be manipulated.

 

[skyking]

It has already been done, with a million dollar incentive. No one has passed.

 

[flhiker]

It has already been done, with a million dollar incentive. No one has passed.

Who has? Have you tried it? If you haven't don't tell anyone you know. It's to easy to not try.

 

[skyking]

Did you really read my post? I can see where ditch lines are. I don't need no stinkin' ouija board

 

[flhiker]

Did you really read my post? I can see where ditch lines are. I don't need no stinkin' ouija board

So no you have never tried it. You can only assume you know if they work or not. I really don't care if you can see trench lines or not. The question here is whether or not these rods work. I know if I'm manipulating the rods or not. And the only way you will know the truth is if you try. Why are you so resistant to knowledge?

 

[skyking]

No you don't know. The subconscious is capable of doing so. I'm not resistant to knowledge, just BS that has been debunked many times over. Give it up.

 

[Gibsons]

YOU DO IT. Are you telling me you don't trust yourself?

 

[Ferzerp]

This thread is a wonderful honeypot for identifying a lack of critical thinking skills.

"This guy I know totally can do this"
"Why hasn't he claimed the $1,000,000 then?"
"But it totally works!"
"Why hasn't he claimed the $1,000,000 then?"
"but but but"

 

[SMOGZINN]

So no you have never tried it. You can only assume you know if they work or not. I really don't care if you can see trench lines or not. The question here is whether or not these rods work. I know if I'm manipulating the rods or not. And the only way you will know the truth is if you try. Why are you so resistant to knowledge?

I've tried it, and it doesn't work. Not when the people involved don't know where the item to be found already is.

This argument came up in my group of friends when my uncle claimed that drowsing works. It just so happens that I have a really good place to test this with. I have a water line running from a well that was laid 43 years ago, and I know exactly where it runs and it does not run in a straight line to the house (it actually runs at 90 degrees from the house for over a hundred yards, then turns to the house). The 4 acres yard has been re-leveled and re-sodded several times over those years, used a pasture for cattle, and had a in-ground swimming pool at one time that has now been filled in.

So, this summer I got a few friends of mine together for a BBQ along with my uncle who claims to be able to dowse for water. We gave them each 3 markers and a pair of drowsing rods, one set made by my uncle (that everyone shared), and one set made by them (each made their own out of whatever materials they felt was appropriate). Then I set them lose on the yard. They each put their markers on the ground where they 'dowsed' the water, and then I and my dad (who laid that line by hand 43 years ago) went and checked.

The end result? No one got even close to the real line. No one was within 30 feet of it in fact. We even plumbed down in each spot to make sure they didn't find anything else that we had forgotten. Nothing. Afterwards my uncle even laughed and said that he should have known the line ran that way because he remembers that there used to be a barn with a shower over there.

So, 5 people, one claiming to be experienced, 3 tries each, and not one hit. Now what excuse?

 

[Paulster2016]

I've tried it, and it doesn't work. Not when the people involved don't know where the item to be found already is.

This argument came up in my group of friends when my uncle claimed that drowsing works. It just so happens that I have a really good place to test this with. I have a water line running from a well that was laid 43 years ago, and I know exactly where it runs and it does not run in a straight line to the house (it actually runs at 90 degrees from the house for over a hundred yards, then turns to the house). The 4 acres yard has been re-leveled and re-sodded several times over those years, used a pasture for cattle, and had a in-ground swimming pool at one time that has now been filled in.

So, this summer I got a few friends of mine together for a BBQ along with my uncle who claims to be able to dowse for water. We gave them each 3 markers and a pair of drowsing rods, one set made by my uncle (that everyone shared), and one set made by them (each made their own out of whatever materials they felt was appropriate). Then I set them lose on the yard. They each put their markers on the ground where they 'dowsed' the water, and then I and my dad (who laid that line by hand 43 years ago) went and checked.

The end result? No one got even close to the real line. No one was within 30 feet of it in fact. We even plumbed down in each spot to make sure they didn't find anything else that we had forgotten. Nothing. Afterwards my uncle even laughed and said that he should have known the line ran that way because he remembers that there used to be a barn with a shower over there.

So, 5 people, one claiming to be experienced, 3 tries each, and not one hit. Now what excuse?

 

[Paulster2016]

Years ago I was a sceptic of this when it was demonstrated but over the years have become a believer. I have drilled many water and geothermal wells on my properties. I have spoken the the well drillers that use this technique. They believe that the L shaped metal rods identify seams or cracks in the limestone. This does not guarantee water will be found but dramatically improves the chance in my part of the country as lacking a crack in the limestone, there is no chance of hitting water. My working theory on this is that since the earth produces an electro-magnetic field, that field may be less attenuated or focused along a crack. I suspect that the reason the rods behave as they do (move from directly in front of you to pointing in opposite directions) is they work like an electroscope as you walk over an area with a stronger electrical field.

I got curious about this and did some tests over a particularly strong signal where I have a good producing water well. A test with a metal rod inserted in the ground along the seam and one a few feet away consistently produced a moderate .5v differential. The current was less than a milliamp so this is not going to solve the world's energy needs ;-)

My experience has shown this is very accurate for cracks/seams in the limestone. It is also fairly accurate for mapping caves. I have some caves on my properties and the rods map perfectly with the cave layout that I have explored. It is notable that a cave produces a weaker movement. And it is also notable that you can map the width and direction of the cave using the rods. I have had some success following underground pipes but this is even a weaker movement than caves, so far less accurate for me.

Anyway it is fine to be sceptical but being adamant that this does not work or could not work without having seen it for yourself is IMO pretty small minded. A few hundred years ago suggesting the earth circled the sun got one branded a heretic by those who smugly "knew" this could not be the case...

- Paul

 

[SMOGZINN]

Anyway it is fine to be sceptical but being adamant that this does not work or could not work without having seen it for yourself is IMO pretty small minded. A few hundred years ago suggesting the earth circled the sun got one branded a heretic by those who smugly "knew" this could not be the case...

So, now that I can say that I have seen for myself that it doesn't work you decide that is not enough?

The fact is that this is something that is trivial to test, and there has been large scale tests and they have all come back with resounding negative results. There is not even a hint that this could work, there is no reasonable explanation how it could work, and no one has ever been able to demonstrate it even when given the opportunity to define their own terms on how, within reason.

There really is a million dollar prize available to the first person that can demonstrate that it works, they don't even need to be able to explain why, just show that they can do it.

A test with a metal rod inserted in the ground along the seam and one a few feet away consistently produced a moderate .5v differential. The current was less than a milliamp so this is not going to solve the world's energy needs ;-)...

As I have already said once in this thread, if this was a electromagnetic test then we have equipment billions of times more sensitive to electromagnetic fields than two rods could possibly be, and that equipment is not even that expensive. Using such equipment would already be standard practice. But EM fields simply don't work that way.

 

[Paulster2016]

Did you read my post at all? I stated that finding cracks in the limestone is very easy (produces several grams of force pushing the rods apart) and finding caves and caverns is pretty reliable. Finding a pipe is IMO very difficult, if even possible as the perturbations in the electric field would be minimal. If there is a million dollar prize to map seams or caves, myself or dozens of people I know would win it instantly. I know a number of water well drillers and none of them would consider drilling a well without using rods to find a seam first. And there is no doubt that what it shown by the rods is what is there as when you drill, you hit either broken limestone (seam) or cavern just as the rods indicate.

And BTW there is some high end equipment for tracing underground pipes. It works by producing an electric field and then a sensitive receiver can detect perturbations in that field. Anyway this phenomenom is real regardless of what you "think" and I had hoped to have a discourse about it as it seems fascinating. Just repeating over and over that is does not work is not helping anything.

- Paul

 

[SMOGZINN]

If there is a million dollar prize to map seams or caves, myself or dozens of people I know would win it instantly.

There is. In fact here is a whole list of them. Many of them would accept dowsing. The North Texas Skeptics that would certainly accept dowsing as an item for their $12,000USD prize. You should totally email them the address is: skeptic75287@yahoo.com
No one has managed to win the prize yet.

 

[Paulster2016]

The North Texas Skeptics prize is for finding items inside a home with a map remotely. There is nothing I have stated nor any others on this thread have stated to we have ever done something like that or that it could be done. So by ignoring what I and others have written and throwing silly stuff like North Texas Skeptics, you are simply trolling.

 

[Ichinisan]

Years ago I was a sceptic of this when it was demonstrated but over the years have become a believer. I have drilled many water and geothermal wells on my properties. I have spoken the the well drillers that use this technique. They believe that the L shaped metal rods identify seams or cracks in the limestone. This does not guarantee water will be found but dramatically improves the chance in my part of the country as lacking a crack in the limestone, there is no chance of hitting water. My working theory on this is that since the earth produces an electro-magnetic field, that field may be less attenuated or focused along a crack. I suspect that the reason the rods behave as they do (move from directly in front of you to pointing in opposite directions) is they work like an electroscope as you walk over an area with a stronger electrical field.

I got curious about this and did some tests over a particularly strong signal where I have a good producing water well. A test with a metal rod inserted in the ground along the seam and one a few feet away consistently produced a moderate .5v differential. The current was less than a milliamp so this is not going to solve the world's energy needs ;-)

My experience has shown this is very accurate for cracks/seams in the limestone. It is also fairly accurate for mapping caves. I have some caves on my properties and the rods map perfectly with the cave layout that I have explored. It is notable that a cave produces a weaker movement. And it is also notable that you can map the width and direction of the cave using the rods. I have had some success following underground pipes but this is even a weaker movement than caves, so far less accurate for me.

Anyway it is fine to be sceptical but being adamant that this does not work or could not work without having seen it for yourself is IMO pretty small minded. A few hundred years ago suggesting the earth circled the sun got one branded a heretic by those who smugly "knew" this could not be the case...

- Paul

Any idea why a controlled test always fails?

 

[Ichinisan]

Did you read my post at all? I stated that finding cracks in the limestone is very easy (produces several grams of force pushing the rods apart) and finding caves and caverns is pretty reliable. Finding a pipe is IMO very difficult, if even possible as the perturbations in the electric field would be minimal. If there is a million dollar prize to map seams or caves, myself or dozens of people I know would win it instantly. I know a number of water well drillers and none of them would consider drilling a well without using rods to find a seam first. And there is no doubt that what it shown by the rods is what is there as when you drill, you hit either broken limestone (seam) or cavern just as the rods indicate.

And BTW there is some high end equipment for tracing underground pipes. It works by producing an electric field and then a sensitive receiver can detect perturbations in that field. Anyway this phenomenom is real regardless of what you "think" and I had hoped to have a discourse about it as it seems fascinating. Just repeating over and over that is does not work is not helping anything.

- Paul

How would the EM field produce kinetic motion in copper rods?

 

[Paulster2016]

How would the EM field produce kinetic motion in copper rods?

I am not sure in this case but an EM field certainly produces motion in electroscopes which have similar design characteristics. As to the challenges, nobody has ever had a challenge for mapping an underground cavern or seam in the limestone. I have trouble imagining that a 1 inch pipe could influence an electric field enough to detect this way. However it is not implausible to think that a hundred foot deep crack in the limestone formations might somehow influence fields significantly.

- Paul

 

[Paulster2016]

So these seams (maybe a 3 foot wide crack in the limestone) probably extend about 100 feet deep (typical depth of limestone here). Limestone has a dielectric constant of 7 (4-8 if saturated). The clayey soil filling the cracks is likely somewhat saturated and would have a dielectric constant of ~15. Air (cave) has a dielectric constant of 1 and water 78.

- Paul