How crazy I am to think this of the universe?

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: So
Hawking radiation, bitches. Read it, love it, live it -- in summary, no.

Hawking radiation is a *very* slow process. If the universe were to implode, there's no problem with it doing it before the black holes evaporate away. However, current observations are that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating, leading to "wtf?!" curiosity by scientists.

 

[Jeff7181]

I look at it this way... energy is never lost... only converted to different types of energy. So if there was enough energy to blast all this shit out all over the place, there's enough energy to eventually pull it all back together.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Alright, so supposedly the universe came from a singularity of immense density, exploded. Fast forward 13 or so billion light years, we have what we have today, with stuffs and galaxies.

FYI a light year is a measure of distance, not of time.

 

[SithSolo1]

Last I heard the universe was expanding at an ever increasing rate which leads lil Ole me to believe we ain't coming back together.

 

[Shadow Conception]

Originally posted by: RESmonkey

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Maybe. There's also "dark energy" - they don't quite know what exactly it is, maybe it's some property inherent to space itself. But the expansion appears to be accelerating.

Maybe it's a repulsive force that is generally weak, but when it's not overcome by gravity, it can be rather powerful.


So if not the "Big Crunch," then we'd be looking at "Heat Death." Everything with a temperature above absolute zero produces electromagnetic radiation. Think about what metal does when it glows red-hot. That's just because the temperature increased the frequency of the EM output enough such that it entered our visual spectrum.

But since everything is radiating energy out into empty space, eventually everything is going to cool off to nearly absolute zero. In a LONG time, elements will undergo radioactive decay, and even protons will likely decay too, though they've got an insanely long (theorized) half-life, something like 10^36 or 10^38 years, which is much older than the age of the Universe.

Pretty well the same thing you'd expect of an explosion on Earth. Big, violent eruption of energy, followed by an expanding shock wave, full of turbulent matter and energy behind the wave. Eventually, it all dissipates and cools.

The drifting away part is tied in with the Heat Death.

And yeah, Proton Decay would leave everything gone except subatomic particles floating here and there...unless they somehow decay?

So... this hypothetical future of our universe is basically oblivion? That's mind-boggling, everything really does seem to have a beginning and an end.

 

[sonambulo]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Alright, so supposedly the universe came from a singularity of immense density, exploded. Fast forward 13 or so billion light years, we have what we have today, with stuffs and galaxies.

Now, each galaxy is supposedly revolving around a giant black hole. Would it be logical to say that eventually everything will come back to be a singularity of immense density?

Discuss.

One HUGE slot to fill.

 

[imported_Baloo]

Based on the bit of info you mentioned, there is no way to arrive at that conclusion without jumping.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Alright, so supposedly the universe came from a singularity of immense density, exploded. Fast forward 13 or so billion light years, we have what we have today, with stuffs and galaxies.

FYI a light year is a measure of distance, not of time.

yep, also saying the universe came from a singularity is about as vague as saying the universe is filled with "stuffs". I dont keep up with this stuff but afaik there is no decent theory about how the big bang could have originated?

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: dainthomas
The universe will continue accelerating outward until all the stars burn out and even the black holes evaporate, leaving only infinite cold nothingness and death.

But Jesus will fly down from heaven and take all true Christians back with him WAY before all that!

And everyone else, as well.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Shadow Conception
So... this hypothetical future of our universe is basically oblivion? That's mind-boggling, everything really does seem to have a beginning and an end.

Pretty much. The best way out would be to somehow escape spacetime. We've got many many many billions of years in which to do it though.

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
I look at it this way... energy is never lost... only converted to different types of energy. So if there was enough energy to blast all this shit out all over the place, there's enough energy to eventually pull it all back together.

Gravity isn't energy though, more like just an effect of it. As I understand it, matter is tightly bound, "condensed" energy, which makes some kind of a warping of spacetime - gravity.

Some of that energy is also in the "form" of kinetic energy. If you give something sufficient velocity, it'll escape the gravitational field of a certain quantity of matter. The only way to get those two things to come back together would be to exert more energy to reverse their directions.
Alternately, some other massive objects would need to appear in order to use their gravity to redirect the speedy objects back at each other.

Originally posted by: randay
yep, also saying the universe came from a singularity is about as vague as saying the universe is filled with "stuffs". I dont keep up with this stuff but afaik there is no decent theory about how the big bang could have originated?

Singularity = an infinitesimally small point of nearly infinite density and mass.


There are theories about where it came from, but really knowing would require stepping "outside" of space and time. Presently, we have no idea of how to do that.
It's suggested that some higher-dimensional structures, called branes, exist outside of our realm of spacetime. These branes vibrate and move, and if they collide, at the point where they touch, you get a little explosion, a bubble of space, time, and energy, sort of like how you might get a spark and sound from striking a flint.

Some of the math is just crazy-looking too, involving something like 11 dimensions of reality.

 

[Capitalizt]

Your mind will really be blown when you realize that what you describe as the beginning of our "universe" is the exact same condition that exists in the center of every black hole in the galaxy..infinite energy and mass in a point that is infinitely small....

Our universe could essentially be a single white hole...which is what "explodes" out the spacetime rip at the center of a black hole...the other side of the singularity = another universe.

Every black hole in our galaxy is actually the mother of it's own universe, which is formed by a white hole on the other side of it's singularity.

We really live in a multiverse... Our own universe is simply it's own small bubble that has branched off from another bubble...which has branched off from another bubble...a huge network of universes that are constantly being formed. So even if we end up drifting through black nothingness, it's really not much of a loss in the grand scheme of things

multiverse pic

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Gravity isn't energy though, more like just an effect of it. As I understand it, matter is tightly bound, "condensed" energy, which makes some kind of a warping of spacetime - gravity.

Some of that energy is also in the "form" of kinetic energy. If you give something sufficient velocity, it'll escape the gravitational field of a certain quantity of matter. The only way to get those two things to come back together would be to exert more energy to reverse their directions.
Alternately, some other massive objects would need to appear in order to use their gravity to redirect the speedy objects back at each other.

Can an object REALLY completely escape the gravitational field of another object? Or does it just get so infinitesimally small that the affect is almost nothing... but given more time than a human can possibly comprehend, would the rate at which the objects are moving apart slow and eventually come back together? This reminds me of the question... does 0.99 repeating = 1, or does it approach but never ACTUALLY reach 1?

 

[Capitalizt]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
This reminds me of the question... does 0.99 repeating = 1, or does it approach but never ACTUALLY reach 1?

.99 repeating does equal 1. It is provable

Look at these two sets of equations:

10x = 9.999999

divided by 10, you get x = .999999

So 10x - 1x = (9.999 - .999)

9x = 9

x = 1

Or you could do this with 3rds. You take for granted that 1/3 = .3333

so 1/3 = .3333
2/3 = .6666
3/3 = .9999

3/3 also happens to = 1

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Your mind will really be blown when you realize that what you describe as the beginning of our "universe" is the exact same condition that exists in the center of every black hole in the galaxy..infinite energy and mass in a point that is infinitely small....

Our universe could essentially be a single white hole...which is what "explodes" out the spacetime rip at the center of a black hole...the other side of the singularity = another universe.

Every black hole in our galaxy is actually the mother of it's own universe, which is formed by a white hole on the other side of it's singularity.

We really live in a multiverse... Our own universe is simply it's own small bubble that has branched off from another bubble...which has branched off from another bubble...a huge network of universes that are constantly being formed. So even if we end up drifting through black nothingness, it's really not much of a loss in the grand scheme of things

multiverse pic

Maybe a blackholes singularity is simply sucking material out of its universe and spewing it into "the other side". The effect known as hawking radiation is really the "big crunch", radiating our known universe back unto its original universe until the blackhole, and therefore our own universe, evaporates into nothing?

 

[StinkyPinky]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Your mind will really be blown when you realize that what you describe as the beginning of our "universe" is the exact same condition that exists in the center of every black hole in the galaxy..infinite energy and mass in a point that is infinitely small....

Our universe could essentially be a single white hole...which is what "explodes" out the spacetime rip at the center of a black hole...the other side of the singularity = another universe.

Every black hole in our galaxy is actually the mother of it's own universe, which is formed by a white hole on the other side of it's singularity.

We really live in a multiverse... Our own universe is simply it's own small bubble that has branched off from another bubble...which has branched off from another bubble...a huge network of universes that are constantly being formed. So even if we end up drifting through black nothingness, it's really not much of a loss in the grand scheme of things

multiverse pic

What happens if the multiverse is just a computer simulation?

cue xfiles music

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
This reminds me of the question... does 0.99 repeating = 1, or does it approach but never ACTUALLY reach 1?

.99 repeating does equal 1. It is provable

Look at these two sets of equations:

10x = 9.999999

divided by 10, you get x = .999999

So 10x - 1x = (9.999 - .999)

9x = 9

x = 1

Or you could do this with 3rds. You take for granted that 1/3 = .3333

so 1/3 = .3333
2/3 = .6666
3/3 = .9999

3/3 also happens to = 1

Your math is flawed... 9x != 9... that's an assumption that was thrown in there randomly, and an incorrect assumption at that.

You first prove that x = .99, which is correct when you assume 10x = .99
You then create a problem to solve: 10x - 1x
plug in the value for x and you get 9.99 - .99 = 9, which is correct

That is the end of the problem... there is no 9x = 9

Simply writing down a false equation and solving it doesn't make it true... you're solving two separate equations... look... I can do the same thing...



10x = 5
x = .5
10x - 1x = (5 - .5) = 4.5

(this is where your false assumption happens)
4x = 4.5
x = 1.125

therefore 1.125 = 0.5? no...

*EDIT* nevermind... found MY error

 

[thecrecarc]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Capitalizt

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
This reminds me of the question... does 0.99 repeating = 1, or does it approach but never ACTUALLY reach 1?

.99 repeating does equal 1. It is provable

Look at these two sets of equations:

10x = 9.999999

divided by 10, you get x = .999999

So 10x - 1x = (9.999 - .999)

9x = 9

x = 1

Or you could do this with 3rds. You take for granted that 1/3 = .3333

so 1/3 = .3333
2/3 = .6666
3/3 = .9999

3/3 also happens to = 1

Your math is flawed... 9x != 9... that's an assumption that was thrown in there randomly, and an incorrect assumption at that.

You first prove that x = .99, which is correct when you assume 10x = .99
You then create a problem to solve: 10x - 1x
plug in the value for x and you get 9.99 - .99 = 9, which is correct

That is the end of the problem... there is no 9x = 9

Simply writing down a false equation and solving it doesn't make it true... you're solving two separate equations... look... I can do the same thing...



10x = 5
x = .5
10x - 1x = (5 - .5) = 4.5

(this is where your false assumption happens)
4x = 4.5
x = 1.125

therefore 1.125 = 0.5? no...

Whats 10-1? 9. Whats 10(variable)-1(variable)? 9(variable)

If 10x-1x equals 9, then 9x = 9.

In your above situation, it would be:

10x = 5
x = .5
10x - 1x = (5 - .5) = 4.5

THEN:
9x = 4.5
x = .5

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Can an object REALLY completely escape the gravitational field of another object? Or does it just get so infinitesimally small that the affect is almost nothing... but given more time than a human can possibly comprehend, would the rate at which the objects are moving apart slow and eventually come back together? This reminds me of the question... does 0.99 repeating = 1, or does it approach but never ACTUALLY reach 1?

Yeah. Look up "escape velocity."

That's what it's defined as. Once you reach it, you can't be pulled back by that body's gravity, ever. The Voyager spacecraft are examples of this, several times. They exceeded Earth's escape velocity, and also the escape velocity of the planets they flew past. They're also moving faster than the Sun's escape velocity, so they'll freely leave the solar system completely. The only way they'll ever come back is if some freak encounters with other objects in space, such as stars or planets, happens to fling them back this way in a few billion years. That, or else some life form, either Earth-originated life forms of the distant future, or alien creatures, could bring them back to the planet of their origin.
But without those external influences, the Voyager probes are never going to be pulled back here by the Sun's gravitational influence.

Black holes have the unique property that their escape velocity is faster than the speed of light. So you could escape from beneath a black hole's event horizon - if you found some way of going faster than the speed of light.

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Your mind will really be blown when you realize that what you describe as the beginning of our "universe" is the exact same condition that exists in the center of every black hole in the galaxy..infinite energy and mass in a point that is infinitely small....

Our universe could essentially be a single white hole...which is what "explodes" out the spacetime rip at the center of a black hole...the other side of the singularity = another universe.

Every black hole in our galaxy is actually the mother of it's own universe, which is formed by a white hole on the other side of it's singularity.

We really live in a multiverse... Our own universe is simply it's own small bubble that has branched off from another bubble...which has branched off from another bubble...a huge network of universes that are constantly being formed. So even if we end up drifting through black nothingness, it's really not much of a loss in the grand scheme of things

multiverse pic

How cool would that then be if the LHC really does create tiny black holes - we'd be "god" to a whole host of tiny universes.

Interesting idea though.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Yeah. Look up "escape velocity."

That's what it's defined as. Once you reach it, you can't be pulled back by that body's gravity, ever. The Voyager spacecraft are examples of this, several times. They exceeded Earth's escape velocity, and also the escape velocity of the planets they flew past. They're also moving faster than the Sun's escape velocity, so they'll freely leave the solar system completely. The only way they'll ever come back is if some freak encounters with other objects in space, such as stars or planets, happens to fling them back this way in a few billion years. That, or else some life form, either Earth-originated life forms of the distant future, or alien creatures, could bring them back to the planet of their origin.
But without those external influences, the Voyager probes are never going to be pulled back here by the Sun's gravitational influence.

Black holes have the unique property that their escape velocity is faster than the speed of light. So you could escape from beneath a black hole's event horizon - if you found some way of going faster than the speed of light.

Yeah, but we know what the escape velocity of the earth and sun is, so we can overcome it. How do we know the big bang sent anything flying out at a rate beyond the escape velocity of the universe. Escape velocity is based on mass, right? Do we know the total mass of the universe?

 

[Soundmanred]

I'll be dead in 50-60 years at most, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop that.
It's pretty much a moot point to me if it doesn't plan on happening before that.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Yeah. Look up "escape velocity."

That's what it's defined as. Once you reach it, you can't be pulled back by that body's gravity, ever. The Voyager spacecraft are examples of this, several times. They exceeded Earth's escape velocity, and also the escape velocity of the planets they flew past. They're also moving faster than the Sun's escape velocity, so they'll freely leave the solar system completely. The only way they'll ever come back is if some freak encounters with other objects in space, such as stars or planets, happens to fling them back this way in a few billion years. That, or else some life form, either Earth-originated life forms of the distant future, or alien creatures, could bring them back to the planet of their origin.
But without those external influences, the Voyager probes are never going to be pulled back here by the Sun's gravitational influence.

Black holes have the unique property that their escape velocity is faster than the speed of light. So you could escape from beneath a black hole's event horizon - if you found some way of going faster than the speed of light.

Yeah, but we know what the escape velocity of the earth and sun is, so we can overcome it. How do we know the big bang sent anything flying out at a rate beyond the escape velocity of the universe. Escape velocity is based on mass, right? Do we know the total mass of the universe?

Yes and no.
It's not necessarily based only on mass, but on the ability to produce gravity.
I'm starting to forget some of what I learned in my Astronomy courses, but dark matter and the Cosmological Constant (I believe this represents dark energy, just a secondary name for something we don't know shit about...) affect the rate of expansion and the future of said expansion... i.e. either continuing to expand, or enough to mean that it'll eventually collapse retract.
Right now, with only Mass in mind, they calculate the Universe will continue to expand. But with dark matter and the cosmological constant in mind, the Universe should already be contracting. So essentially, jack shit is known about the Universe's expansion properties. It's proposed there is some point it'll reach, where it will no longer be able to sustain expansion, and everything will contract. I'd say this could only be possible if the Universe stops expanding, but something like dark energy and dark matter continues to move about... which would eventually cause massive quantities of mass to shift about, which could trigger enough movement to reverse course.

Oh, and such an idea as an Escape Velocity of the Universe has never even been proposed as far as I recall. There's never been any real consent as to what lies beyond the Universe... it's kind of assumed the Universe has influence on anything and everything that exists, and that nothing can escape it, which would mean escaping reality itself and whatever escaped would be outside the Universal laws.
It would be weird if the Universe were like a bubble, and you could slip through and be free of the restraints of, well... everything as we know it.
At this point, my brain is asking me to stop writing anything. I love theorizing and researching this kind of material, but it hurts my brain knowing that at this point in time, I'll never know the answers. I should start my own funky religion, except it probably wouldn't have any real deity. Suppose a deity is necessary? :laugh:

+

 

[Jeff7]

And to clarify about "dark matter" and "dark energy" - I don't think they're really matter and energy.
They're terms to indicate that there is "something" out there that sort of behaves like matter, and something else that sort of behaves like energy.

They don't know what it is though. Some, such as proponents of MOdified Newtonian Dynamics, think that it may simply be a mathematical issue, that we're not properly calculating the masses of various massive objects.
Dark energy has to do with the rate of expansion. I think they've said now that the rate of expansion is actually increasing.

Originally posted by: destrekor
It would be weird if the Universe were like a bubble, and you could slip through and be free of the restraints of, well... everything as we know it.
At this point, my brain is asking me to stop writing anything. I love theorizing and researching this kind of material, but it hurts my brain knowing that at this point in time, I'll never know the answers. I should start my own funky religion, except it probably wouldn't have any real deity. Suppose a deity is necessary? :laugh:

+

Ugh, tell me about it. Born in a time when we still haven't overcome the ancient malady of mortality. It's about time we confined that problem to the history books. Artificial bodies (brains included, of course) are what I've got in mind.
Maybe within the next thousand years we'll do it, or 250 years if we'd do away with BS like superstition, death-worship, and warfare.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: venkman

Originally posted by: mundane

Originally posted by: venkman
No one has ever though of that before. Give the man a noble prize.

Let's make it a Royal prize, just for him.

gak! That is the last time I trust firefox spell check.

true, ff spellcheck needs a huge overall, like, badly....

his spelling was fine. his word-choice, off. spellcheck won't be able to analyze the content of you sentences and decide that you are using the incorrect homonym. Once a computer does that, I'm running for da hills.

 

[her209]

Does it really matter?

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Yeah. Look up "escape velocity."

That's what it's defined as. Once you reach it, you can't be pulled back by that body's gravity, ever. The Voyager spacecraft are examples of this, several times. They exceeded Earth's escape velocity, and also the escape velocity of the planets they flew past. They're also moving faster than the Sun's escape velocity, so they'll freely leave the solar system completely. The only way they'll ever come back is if some freak encounters with other objects in space, such as stars or planets, happens to fling them back this way in a few billion years. That, or else some life form, either Earth-originated life forms of the distant future, or alien creatures, could bring them back to the planet of their origin.
But without those external influences, the Voyager probes are never going to be pulled back here by the Sun's gravitational influence.

Black holes have the unique property that their escape velocity is faster than the speed of light. So you could escape from beneath a black hole's event horizon - if you found some way of going faster than the speed of light.

Yeah, but we know what the escape velocity of the earth and sun is, so we can overcome it. How do we know the big bang sent anything flying out at a rate beyond the escape velocity of the universe. Escape velocity is based on mass, right? Do we know the total mass of the universe?

Yes and no.
It's not necessarily based only on mass, but on the ability to produce gravity.
I'm starting to forget some of what I learned in my Astronomy courses, but dark matter and the Cosmological Constant (I believe this represents dark energy, just a secondary name for something we don't know shit about...) affect the rate of expansion and the future of said expansion... i.e. either continuing to expand, or enough to mean that it'll eventually collapse retract.
Right now, with only Mass in mind, they calculate the Universe will continue to expand. But with dark matter and the cosmological constant in mind, the Universe should already be contracting. So essentially, jack shit is known about the Universe's expansion properties. It's proposed there is some point it'll reach, where it will no longer be able to sustain expansion, and everything will contract. I'd say this could only be possible if the Universe stops expanding, but something like dark energy and dark matter continues to move about... which would eventually cause massive quantities of mass to shift about, which could trigger enough movement to reverse course.

Oh, and such an idea as an Escape Velocity of the Universe has never even been proposed as far as I recall. There's never been any real consent as to what lies beyond the Universe... it's kind of assumed the Universe has influence on anything and everything that exists, and that nothing can escape it, which would mean escaping reality itself and whatever escaped would be outside the Universal laws.
It would be weird if the Universe were like a bubble, and you could slip through and be free of the restraints of, well... everything as we know it.
At this point, my brain is asking me to stop writing anything. I love theorizing and researching this kind of material, but it hurts my brain knowing that at this point in time, I'll never know the answers. I should start my own funky religion, except it probably wouldn't have any real deity. Suppose a deity is necessary? :laugh:

+

When you think of the Universe as a whole, doesn't it seem likely that it will coalesce again given enough time? I mean... the Universe is everything... nothing can exist that isn't part of the Universe... so the total amount of energy, mass, matter and "stuff" is a constant.

The reason we can overcome earth's gravity by exceeding its escape velocity is because we're adding energy.

If you drilled a hole through the center of the Earth and dropped a rock through it, it wouldn't shoot out the other side because no energy has been added... the same gravitational force that accelerated the rock toward the center of the earth is slowing it down once it passes the center. If you remove friction from the equation, it should shoot back and forth from one end to the other infinitely until some other force acts on it. If you add energy... say... shoot a bullet down through a hole that goes through the center of the earth and remove friction from the equation, it will exit the other side of the earth at the same velocity it entered the earth and possibly break out of the gravitational field of the earth.

Now, since the Universe is all inclusive... there's no additional energy to add... so eventually, the expansion should stop, and the contraction should begin. That is of course assuming there is no "friction" in the form of another dimension or something like that...

*EDIT* On a similar subject... if the Universe is everything/everywhere, how is it expanding? What is there for it to expand into? Lets assume there is an edge, but it's expanding at the speed of light... if I could find a way to exceed the speed of light, could I see outside the Universe, or by doing so, have I just expanded the Universe?