How could anyone argue that a Universal Living Wage is a good idea?

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
I know better than arguing for a higher base minimum wage, because I'll get flamed by all of the "armchair economists" and small business owners who can't afford to pay a higher wage.

I still think that most American corporations are too greedy, though, and could afford to pay most of those burger flippers and grocery baggers out there an extra buck an hour without impacting their bottom line too much. I know that the grocery store that I worked at as a kid made hundreds of millions in annual profits, but payed their employees a measly 10 cents over minimum wage. They also screwed their older employees out of state mandated benefits by not allowing them to work more than 39.5 hours a week, and used scare tactics to keep their employees from joining a union.

Bush's job training benefits sounds like a good start, but we also need some tougher laws out there that keep crooked companies from screwing their employees.

and more jobs will flee the country...

I'm talking low paying service jobs here! Try as they may, they can't outsource a McDonalds cashier or A&P Stock Clerk job to India yet

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
I know better than arguing for a higher base minimum wage, because I'll get flamed by all of the "armchair economists" and small business owners who can't afford to pay a higher wage.

I still think that most American corporations are too greedy, though, and could afford to pay most of those burger flippers and grocery baggers out there an extra buck an hour without impacting their bottom line too much. I know that the grocery store that I worked at as a kid made hundreds of millions in annual profits, but payed their employees a measly 10 cents over minimum wage. They also screwed their older employees out of state mandated benefits by not allowing them to work more than 39.5 hours a week, and used scare tactics to keep their employees from joining a union.

Bush's job training benefits sounds like a good start, but we also need some tougher laws out there that keep crooked companies from screwing their employees.

and more jobs will flee the country...

I'm talking low paying service jobs here! Try as they may, they can't outsource a McDonalds cashier or A&P Stock Clerk job to India yet

no, but i'm sure there is something they can. i like how companies are automatically "crooked" too

 

[ultimatebob]

Sadly, most large corporations ARE crooked! If you haven't figured that out yet, you haven't been working at one long enough

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Sadly, most large corporations ARE crooked! If you haven't figured that out yet, you haven't been working at one long enough

i worked at a pretty big one for a while and while i saw a lot of things that made me dislike working for large corps i didn't see much lawbreaking. about the worst of it was moron sales rep working the floor that couldn't get mail order rules right

 

[iliopsoas]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
I know better than arguing for a higher base minimum wage, because I'll get flamed by all of the "armchair economists" and small business owners who can't afford to pay a higher wage.

I still think that most American corporations are too greedy, though, and could afford to pay most of those burger flippers and grocery baggers out there an extra buck an hour without impacting their bottom line too much. I know that the grocery store that I worked at as a kid made hundreds of millions in annual profits, but payed their employees a measly 10 cents over minimum wage. They also screwed their older employees out of state mandated benefits by not allowing them to work more than 39.5 hours a week, and used scare tactics to keep their employees from joining a union.

Bush's job training benefits sounds like a good start, but we also need some tougher laws out there that keep crooked companies from screwing their employees.

and more jobs will flee the country...

I'm talking low paying service jobs here! Try as they may, they can't outsource a McDonalds cashier or A&P Stock Clerk job to India yet

and with what will we support those low-paying service jobs after your precious wage increase? If all our well-paying jobs are being shipped overseas, you can kiss pay raises good-bye.

 

[yukichigai]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: yukichigai

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: yukichigai
I'd be for a raise in minimum wage, but only if they did it like they've done here in Nevada with state wages: gradually over a period of years. Of course with a universal increase I imagine it'd have to be a much slower rate. Much slower. The state can keep up with anything because it can't go bankrupt. Companies don't have that luxury.

Actually, scratch that. What we should just do is simply adjust the minimum wage up every 2-4 years, based on inflation rates using a 3-5 year running average. Sure, in hard dollars it goes up, but relative to the price of everything it should stay the same.

problem is that inflation is often overstated

Hence the 3-5 year running average.

Trust me dude, if it works for gas tax it should work for minimum wage.

umm... no, even with a 3-5 year average inflation is overstated. it is due to deficiencies in the way inflation is measured. its measured by using a set basket of goods, without recognizing that consumer spending habits change with regards to pricing fluctuations, quality changes, etc.

You're thinking of basing it off of the Consumer Price Index. If you base it off of the Federal Industrial Average (is that the name?) the increase is more gradual.

 

[SSibalNom]

all these "living wage" people dont think about what effect it has on small business, which emplys most people in the USA today.....
if you increase Min wage just $2, thats a direct $4000 cut out of profits every year for having a full time min wage worker, if your company is only profiting 100k a year and you have 5 employees, thats 1/5th of your income gone!

 

[B00ne]

How much is the minimum wage?

Nevermind I read it in this link. $5.15 - is that brutto or netto? @40hrs a week that is around $830 a month. Dunno what kind of social standards you have. But if this is brutto I guess no income tax - but how shall one live on this little money ? Here you would have to substratct : health insurance, unemployment insurance, pension insurance - that would prolly not even leave enough for rent let alone food. Is it fair to have ppl working full time and still not be able to make a living?

To the economists: if the income distribution wasnt so highly unequal, it would be possible to raise the minimum wage at least to standards that insure a living (rent plus food plus mobility).

And if your social system is thaught out and not as idiotic as ours, it wouldnt lead to more unemployment either.

Globalization shouldnt be the argument, We should not lower our long fought for social and working standars to the preindustial level that the ppl in third world countries are experiencing. Rather the third world countries should be brought up to /forced to higher standards. But off course that will not happen as there is so much money to be made with slave labor and that is exactly what I would call the standards in those sweat shops.

 

[yukichigai]

$5.15 apparantly. I thought it was $5.75.

 

[Ornery]

"...we also need some tougher laws out there that keep crooked companies from screwing their employees."

If I offer $3.00 per hour to sort widgets, and workers take me up on that offer, then who is screwing who? If you don't like the wages being paid, there's no chain holding you to the job... LEAVE! Damn, how hard is that to understand?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: yukichigai

You're thinking of basing it off of the Consumer Price Index. If you base it off of the Federal Industrial Average (is that the name?) the increase is more gradual.

the PCE indicator is greenspan's pet indicator. while it uses a different weighting method than the CPI i bet it is still subject to overstatement. any overstatement of inflation when trying to adjust a nominal wage is a bad thing, just leading to more inflation.

 

[ElFenix]

To the economists: if the income distribution wasnt so highly unequal, it would be possible to raise the minimum wage at least to standards that insure a living (rent plus food plus mobility).

you can't increase the real value of someone's labor by increasing their nominal wage. if people are being paid more in their nominal wage than the real value of their labor inflation happens bringing people's nominal wages back in line with their respective real outputs. so no, you can't just move money around and expect it to stay there

 

[ElFenix]

here is a question no one has asked: who is paid minimum wage?

i'll tell you who: high school students. that's basically it. so trying to say that no one can make a living on the current minimum wage is stupid. very few people with minimum wage jobs absolutely need to make a living that way. the vast majority would have a roof over their head and food in their stomachs without the job.

 

[FoBoT]

only communists think ideas like that are good

 

[GWDWD]

Gregg Easterbrook of The New Repbulic makes one of the better arguments for it I have seen in his book The Progress Paradox: How Life Gets Better While People Feel Worse. It is primarily a way of redistributing money, no doubt, but his argument is that it would be done much more efficienctly than it is now (i.e., by rewarding people who have jobs). As far as it being teens who are the minimum wage workers, the easy way around that would be to have a minimum wage for those under a given age and a different one for those above it.

I'm not really convinced that this is the answer, but as far as the OP's question goes I think this book would be a good place to start.

Another good book on the working poor is Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: GWDWD As far as it being teens who are the minimum wage workers, the easy way around that would be to have a minimum wage for those under a given age and a different one for those above it.

people other than teenagers are already above that and aren't in issue, why bother setting yet another price floor?

 

[GWDWD]

Originally posted by ElFenix:
people other than teenagers are already above that and aren't in issue, why bother setting yet another price floor?

Good question.

I guess if you wanted to argue in favor of "living wage" legislation, and I don't in particular, you would say that the current difference between what the teenage burger-flippers and the "grown-ups" make isn't enough. Thus, you could keep a certain floor for the crew-kid sect while having a different one for people who need to keep a roof over their heads. Again, this isn't necessarily my point-of-view and I'd reiterate that the Easterbrook and Ehrenreich books mentioned above are useful for seeing the thought processes of at least two people who do hold this position.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: yukichigai

Actually, scratch that. What we should just do is simply adjust the minimum wage up every 2-4 years, based on inflation rates using a 3-5 year running average. Sure, in hard dollars it goes up, but relative to the price of everything it should stay the same.

If inflation is going up at the present time without a min wage increase, it will go up even more if an increase is forced.
the situation will still be the same, min wage will just be accelerating inflation.

also, when the min wage goes up, it will generate a ripple across the board. Who wants some newbe to get the same salary as you who have experience.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: zimu

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: beer
Are people really this blind?

Yes.

I think that just about sums it up.

yeppers

 

[Ameesh]

having a minimum wage in the us is fine but trying to have a global minimum wage is idiotic

 

[Queasy]

We should just move people who are in support of high minimum wages to Germany. They have high minimum wages there and also have double-digit unemployment because of it. Let them live their dream for a while, come back, and see if they still think it is a 'good' idea.

Originally posted by: beer
For information: This was advertised at a campus rally this week

The hair on my butt looks better than that website. Dang that is ugly.

 

[CPA]

It's not a good idea. Period.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
having a minimum wage in the us is fine but trying to have a global minimum wage is idiotic

Do you set the minim wage in the US to support some-one in LA or BackWater, Mississippi?
Some states already have a higher level than the Fed.

Any increase in the min wage will have an effect on consumer prices and wages. So, who does it really help?

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Ornery
"...we also need some tougher laws out there that keep crooked companies from screwing their employees."

If I offer $3.00 per hour to sort widgets, and workers take me up on that offer, then who is screwing who? If you don't like the wages being paid, there's no chain holding you to the job... LEAVE! Damn, how hard is that to understand?

right.

if they do not have the skill/training to get a better job then that is not my problem. Mine is/was keeping my business going. trust me when i say i will not take a cut in MY pay (profit etc) because they raised the min wage. I will just let one my employees go. If i have to sweep the floor myself i will.

even raising the min wage $2 wont help the poor who are working these jobs but it will hurt the small business owner. heck i think i twill even hurt the large ones. All they will do is lay people off to increase the bottom line. i dont see that helping anyone.,

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: dtyn
Socialism is bad.

I'd disagree with that.