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how come we cant go to the moon with all our newfangled tech?

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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Electric propulsion does produce low levels of thrust. To make them useful for manned missions you need a lot of electrical power. Generally in the multi MW range. For comparison the ISS with nearly and acre of solar arrays has an instant ours maximum power of less than 250KW, (actual usable is around 100KW, less as the arrays age). So we are talking nukes for power.

Let me clear somethings up about the EM drive. It's either:

  • Groundbreaking Nobel Prize winning new physics OR
  • Subtle experimental error

(Here's the OT thread BTW Link)

It's effectively a microwave resonance chamber where microwaves at a certain frequency bounce around inside an enclosed tapered cavity. While the measured thrust is very small, (10-100s of millinewtons) it's orders of magnitude higher than a radiation pressure drive. (Anything that radiates photons asymmetrically actually produces tiny amounts of thrust. A flash light for example)

The amazing thing is the drive requires NO propellant. While other plasma and ion drives produce similar low levels of thrust they all require a propellant to accelerate per Newtons laws of motion, (every action has an equal and opposite reaction - conservation of momentum).

If it actually works it's basically Star Trek impulse power. The controversy comes from the fact it has no verified theory for operation and it appears to be violating conservation of momentum. These two facts means we should be skeptical about it actually functioning or not.

If it was only the two independent inventors who were promoting this it could likely be ignored as a hoax. However three independent teams have tested these devices and recorded anomalous thrust.

  • A Chinese university research team
  • Eagleworks - a small advanced propulsion research group at NASA Johnsons Space Center
  • A research team at the University of Dresden

The NASA folks have tested it in and out of vacuum, reversed direction of the thruster and it has produced a measurable thrust. When they tried an RF sources without the tapered cavity as a control they did not see thrust. Currently they are upgrading their test rig to reduce experimental error from magnetic fields and thermal interactions while increasing input power to get a larger thrust signal. These were things recommended to them by a panel of physicists after their first round of tests. If they can reach a bit higher thrust levels other NASA centers will try and replicate their results.

What was recently reported is they now have a paper undergoing peer review. This should hopefully shed some light on what's actually going on.

The benefit of an EM drive to space exploration is enormous. As long as your vehicle has electrical power it can thrust. Most vehicles must have propellant as a major portion of the vehicles mass. Not with EM drive. Eagleworks did a rough estimate of what some crewed missions would look like at various thruster efficiencies. Mars in 28 days could be feasible:

MissionsToMars.png


Hell probes to Alpha Centauri would be possible in a human lifetime.

At any rate it's exciting technology but one we should approach with skepticism. Because of that skepticism NASA is not betting the farm on it. They have however put a nickel in the slot machine. With that low level of funding it will still take awhile to chase down every possible source of experimental error to definitively show it works or it doesn't.

Stay tuned.

Wow, I had no idea. That is insane.

Out of curiosity, if this EM drive turns out to be the real deal are they saying that it could produce thrust at a rate of 4N/KW?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
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Wow, I had no idea. That is insane.

Out of curiosity, if this EM drive turns out to be the real deal are they saying that it could produce thrust at a rate of 4N/KW?

I wouldn't get too excited about this. A reactionless drive violates several well tested principles of physics.
 

alcoholbob

Diamond Member
May 24, 2005
6,389
468
126
Thought I'd upload a Saturn V launch video in commemoration of this thread. Also because it kinda bothered me that the Discover documentary on youtube seems to be all 480p or non-HD. Brings a tear to the eyes it does. Biggest and baddest machine ever built by mankind. The first stage uses up more power than the entire power grid of the United Kingdom during peak hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhUV3VHNu6o&feature=youtu.be
 
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flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
I wouldn't get too excited about this. A reactionless drive violates several well tested principles of physics.

Well NASA, the Chinese and Germans did a good number of tests...the alleged measuring error is still not uncovered...the device still creates thrust, even if at times in the other direction. Definitely odd and exciting.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
136
Well NASA, the Chinese and Germans did a good number of tests...the alleged measuring error is still not uncovered...the device still creates thrust, even if at times in the other direction. Definitely odd and exciting.

I suspect that the thrust will turn out to be caused by some as yet unknown variable, which will explain it without violating well tested laws of physics. But who knows. This is one I'd prefer to be wrong about.
 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,649
15,843
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Wow, I had no idea. That is insane.

Out of curiosity, if this EM drive turns out to be the real deal are they saying that it could produce thrust at a rate of 4N/KW?

Here's what I posted about it in the OT thread:

That's the potential if it works. Right now they (NASA) are at only .007N/kW. The Chinese group was around .3N/kW. (NASA was running at only 17W of power vs 2+Kw for the Chinese group. So it appears to scale well with power. )

The numbers are from what I could find on line

Well NASA, the Chinese and Germans did a good number of tests...the alleged measuring error is still not uncovered...the device still creates thrust, even if at times in the other direction. Definitely odd and exciting.

The thrust changed direction when they reversed the thrusters mounting. Which is a positive but not definitive indication that it is functioning as a thruster and not an experimental error.

I suspect that the thrust will turn out to be caused by some as yet unknown variable, which will explain it without violating well tested laws of physics. But who knows. This is one I'd prefer to be wrong about.

I don't think it's violating conservation of momentum and neither does NASA or the inventors. The experiment itself is obviously not violating reality. If it's simply a subtle error then it's not violating anything.

If it does work in the way Eagleworks is hypothesizing then the assumption that the quantum vacuum is immutable may be incorrect. (Although this begins to sound suspiciously like the "Ether" from 100 years ago.)
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
136
I don't think it's violating conservation of momentum and neither does NASA or the inventors. The experiment itself is obviously not violating reality. If it's simply a subtle error then it's not violating anything.

If it does work in the way Eagleworks is hypothesizing then the assumption that the quantum vacuum is immutable may be incorrect. (Although this begins to sound suspiciously like the "Ether" from 100 years ago.)

You know more about this than me. I only know there seems to be some difference of opinion.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015...s-havent-invented-an-impossible-space-engine/
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,814
8,403
136

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
I heard/read that Eagleworks is very strict w/ releasing any information about this. Makes one wonder what they know what hasn't been made public yet.

The other thing about that peer reviewed paper, my understanding is it doesn't have a chance to go through, even if the paper should prove this thing works. They won't accept a paper on sth. which seemingly violates physics.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Great talk on high tech propulsion, but we still depend on surplus forty year old Russian boosters to get them into orbit.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,649
15,843
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You know more about this than me. I only know there seems to be some difference of opinion.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015...s-havent-invented-an-impossible-space-engine/

In general I agree with that article. The one line I don't is:
There is, of course, a flaw in this idea. The design instantly violates the principle of conservation of momentum.

In most cases saying a thruster won't work because it violates conservation of momentum is fine. But in this specific case I feel it's as unscientific as declaring the thruster actually would work in space.

That the EM drive design when tested produces small but measurable thrust is a fact from the testing.

If it's due to an experimental error like thermal or magnetic effects then momentum is conserved.

If it actually works we only have unsupported hypotheses as to why it works. The NASA hypothesis doesn't violate CoM if I understand it correctly.

So basically, for me, until it's proven to work AND there's a supported theory showing it does violate CoM I won't star for certain that it must violate CoM.

It's kind of a fine line I'm trying to walk.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
In general I agree with that article. The one line I don't is:


In most cases saying a thruster won't work because it violates conservation of momentum is fine. But in this specific case I feel it's as unscientific as declaring the thruster actually would work in space.

That the EM drive design when tested produces small but measurable thrust is a fact from the testing.

If it's due to an experimental error like thermal or magnetic effects then momentum is conserved.

If it actually works we only have unsupported hypotheses as to why it works. The NASA hypothesis doesn't violate CoM if I understand it correctly.

So basically, for me, until it's proven to work AND there's a supported theory showing it does violate CoM I won't star for certain that it must violate CoM.

It's kind of a fine line I'm trying to walk.

Your analysis seems correct.

I don't even see a "fine line".

As you've basically said, one cannot claim it violates CoM until one understands how it works. (No need to even address the issue if it doesn't work.)

Fern
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Here's what I posted about it in the OT thread:


The numbers are from what I could find on line

The thrust changed direction when they reversed the thrusters mounting. Which is a positive but not definitive indication that it is functioning as a thruster and not an experimental error.

I don't think it's violating conservation of momentum and neither does NASA or the inventors. The experiment itself is obviously not violating reality. If it's simply a subtle error then it's not violating anything.

If it does work in the way Eagleworks is hypothesizing then the assumption that the quantum vacuum is immutable may be incorrect. (Although this begins to sound suspiciously like the "Ether" from 100 years ago.)

If it supposedly scales up with power why are they testing it at such low power? Why not ramp the power way the hell up and see if they get significant thrust out of it? Again, I have no idea so honest question, but wouldn't the higher amount of thrust be easier to rule out anomalous readings?
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,649
15,843
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If it supposedly scales up with power why are they testing it at such low power? Why not ramp the power way the hell up and see if they get significant thrust out of it? Again, I have no idea so honest question, but wouldn't the higher amount of thrust be easier to rule out anomalous readings?

Short answer budget and proof.

NASA Eagleworks is a small team with a small lab and a small budget. When I said NASA was only putting a nickel in the slot machine I meant it.

The one paper they've presented so far was basically a lab report detailing the tests run, the results and the difficulties they'd had. At the time they published even though the drive was mounted in a vacuum chamber they ran it at pressure. The power supply they had available didn't have vacuum rated capacitors.

Since then they reportedly fixed that issue and ran a few tests in vacuum but had significant thermal problems limiting the testing.

The drive and the test setup are all hand built to fit inside a table top vacuum chamber:

2015-04-19-010043-350x274.jpg


So rebuilding the rig for a more powerful test isn't quick.


That being said they are currently designing a test for over 100W of power in vacuum. A panel of physicists recommended a number of improvements to increase electrical and magnetic isolation. Those are also being implemented.

Since there's no theory that currently describes what's happening it's difficult to show the thruster actually works. Therefore the experimental evidence has to be beyond reproach. If that happens maybe things will move along faster.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
Just wondering, you somehow have a relationship w/ to Eagleworks?

By the way...there is striking similarity as to how Laser/Masers work (IMHO), eg. a ruby laser is also sort-of a tube w/ two reflective ends, right? You feed light (photons) in, it bounces off the ends, excites photons...and then releases a powerful beam. Just wondering, but somehow this struck me.

Also..it's called EM drive, correct...but WHY microwaves? Simple because the microwaves are trapped in the metal cone? Wouldn't that be a principle that WOULD be valid across the entire spectrum, not just micro waves? What happens with similar configurations but testing with light, UV/IR etc.? Why would only microwaves create thrust?
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,649
15,843
146
Just wondering, you somehow have a relationship w/ to Eagleworks?

By the way...there is striking similarity as to how Laser/Masers work (IMHO), eg. a ruby laser is also sort-of a tube w/ two reflective ends, right? You feed light (photons) in, it bounces off the ends, excites photons...and then releases a powerful beam. Just wondering, but somehow this struck me.

Also..it's called EM drive, correct...but WHY microwaves? Simple because the microwaves are trapped in the metal cone? Wouldn't that be a principle that WOULD be valid across the entire spectrum, not just micro waves? What happens with similar configurations but testing with light, UV/IR etc.? Why would only microwaves create thrust?

As some people around here know, I work for NASA and Eagleworks is across the center from me. I also had a friend who did some work for them for a while. Now everything I've mentioned is freely available on the web or my own opinions.

I won't be sneaking over there to give you guys the inside scoop but I can confirm that the tests they were running were the same ones being reported.

For now we'll just have to wait for the peer reviewed paper to come out to see what they've found.