How come US can make nukes but other nations can't?

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gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
I wouldn't hesitate to guess that the Usa has a nuke or two, deployed on it's bases in Australia
- you know a sour grapes weapon, for when it's creditors come for their money! hahaa
the next few years are going to be fun.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
I can't wrap my head around the idea that more nukes in the world could ever possibly be a good thing.
 

Clair de Lune

Banned
Sep 24, 2008
762
1
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Every country says hypocritical things so? I don't see why you are singling out the US either, China doesn't want north korea to have nuclear weapons either.

Right. Everyone is a hypocrite. I'm singling out US because in this specific issue, US _is_ telling others NOT to build nuke.

What most of the world and all of the current nuclear powers want is for countries that don't currently have nuclear weapons to never make nuclear weapons. Whats wrong with that?

BS. Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

See my first example and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not you, i wouldn't be pissed. I don't own a gun nor do I care to even if someone told me not to have any.
And why are you still singling the US out? Its almost every country telling others not to build a nuke. The US is just the loudest.

plenty to protect ourselves with? nukes act as a deterrent but does not offer full protection.

You do know that your logic is flawed. In the gun theory, if you don't have any, you may feel fine because upper authority such as police can protect you, etc...

Not between nations. There is no police above countries that protects them when shit hits the fan. It's every man for themselves. It's in your nature to protect yourself.

If you were a Country and didn't care for self defense (nuke), there's no one there to help you buddy. You're dead if something happens. And even during the peaceful times, you'll always be a fringe country that no one would take you seriously for.

 
Dec 10, 2005
29,570
15,105
136
Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I wouldn't hesitate to guess that the Usa has a nuke or two, deployed on it's bases in Australia
- you know a sour grapes weapon, for when it's creditors come for their money! hahaa
the next few years are going to be fun.

I doubt it, since we have all those handy nuclear subs carrying Trident missiles, land based ballistic missiles, and probably still have a ton of nukes we can dumb into B-2 and B-52 bombers.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: loki8481
would SK really want the US to leave? I thought we had the same relationship with South Korea that we had with Japan, wherein we provide for their national security and they get to spend money on stuff like tentacle porn instead of having to build up and maintain a large military to keep North Korea at bay.

Japan lost WWII and it's in their pact to not build shit as the loser of the war.

Not SK. In South Korean's point of view, US won't leave them alone and let them be whatever they want to be. Why can't South Korea build nukes to defend itself against NK? SK's reason is the very same as US'.

It's a power play which leaves a many sour taste in SK' mouth... and resulted in this awkward love/hate relationship with US.

North Korea and China will not allow SK to create nuclear weapons. South Korea having nuclear weapons also gives cause for North Korea to have nuclear weapons. North Korea and South Korea having nuclear weapons will create cause for Japan to have nuclear weapons. And trust me, if the US lets SK go nuclear, Japan will go nuclear once SK and NK have it.

Basically it becomes a domino effect where everyone wants nukes.

 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Every country says hypocritical things so? I don't see why you are singling out the US either, China doesn't want north korea to have nuclear weapons either.

Right. Everyone is a hypocrite. I'm singling out US because in this specific issue, US _is_ telling others NOT to build nuke.

What most of the world and all of the current nuclear powers want is for countries that don't currently have nuclear weapons to never make nuclear weapons. Whats wrong with that?

BS. Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

See my first example and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not you, i wouldn't be pissed. I don't own a gun nor do I care to even if someone told me not to have any.
And why are you still singling the US out? Its almost every country telling others not to build a nuke. The US is just the loudest.

plenty to protect ourselves with? nukes act as a deterrent but does not offer full protection.

You do know that your logic is flawed. In the gun theory, if you don't have any, you may feel fine because upper authority such as police can protect you, etc...

Not between nations. There is no police above countries that protects them when shit hits the fan. It's every man for themselves. It's in your nature to protect yourself.

If you were a Country and didn't care for self defense (nuke), there's no one there to help you buddy. You're dead if something happens. And even during the peaceful times, you'll always be a fringe country that no one would take you seriously for.

you're an idiot. if a nuclear power went nuclear on a non-nuclear power, even if it was a small little speck in the world like say...Taiwan. the whole fucking world will turn against that nuclear aggressor.
 

Clair de Lune

Banned
Sep 24, 2008
762
1
0
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I wouldn't hesitate to guess that the Usa has a nuke or two, deployed on it's bases in Australia
- you know a sour grapes weapon, for when it's creditors come for their money! hahaa
the next few years are going to be fun.

I doubt it, since we have all those handy nuclear subs carrying Trident missiles, land based ballistic missiles, and probably still have a ton of nukes we can dumb into B-2 and B-52 bombers.

Yup, this is OT but US has shit tons of $$$$$ and biggest military budget known to mankind.

They don't need a physical place like Australia. They have hundreds of behemoth-class subs with nukes hiding all over the five seas.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: loki8481
would SK really want the US to leave? I thought we had the same relationship with South Korea that we had with Japan, wherein we provide for their national security and they get to spend money on stuff like tentacle porn instead of having to build up and maintain a large military to keep North Korea at bay.

Japan lost WWII and it's in their pact to not build shit as the loser of the war.

Not SK. In South Korean's point of view, US won't leave them alone and let them be whatever they want to be. Why can't South Korea build nukes to defend itself against NK? SK's reason is the very same as US'.

It's a power play which leaves a many sour taste in SK' mouth... and resulted in this awkward love/hate relationship with US.

If it wasn't for the yanks, pommies and aussies the country called SK wouldn't exist now.
Jesus will be born in the Usa on his second coming!
You can't have a nuke because you cannot be trusted with one!
Now go back to your room and do your homework.........like a good boy!
 

Clair de Lune

Banned
Sep 24, 2008
762
1
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Every country says hypocritical things so? I don't see why you are singling out the US either, China doesn't want north korea to have nuclear weapons either.

Right. Everyone is a hypocrite. I'm singling out US because in this specific issue, US _is_ telling others NOT to build nuke.

What most of the world and all of the current nuclear powers want is for countries that don't currently have nuclear weapons to never make nuclear weapons. Whats wrong with that?

BS. Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

See my first example and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not you, i wouldn't be pissed. I don't own a gun nor do I care to even if someone told me not to have any.
And why are you still singling the US out? Its almost every country telling others not to build a nuke. The US is just the loudest.

plenty to protect ourselves with? nukes act as a deterrent but does not offer full protection.

You do know that your logic is flawed. In the gun theory, if you don't have any, you may feel fine because upper authority such as police can protect you, etc...

Not between nations. There is no police above countries that protects them when shit hits the fan. It's every man for themselves. It's in your nature to protect yourself.

If you were a Country and didn't care for self defense (nuke), there's no one there to help you buddy. You're dead if something happens. And even during the peaceful times, you'll always be a fringe country that no one would take you seriously for.

you're an idiot. if a nuclear power went nuclear on a non-nuclear power, even if it was a small little speck in the world like say...Taiwan. the whole fucking world will turn against that nuclear aggressor.

So is that what you like? Always hoping and depending on others to help you?

Good thing US is smarter than that. No one will fuck with you if you YOURSELF is strong (armed with nukes).

What is your point to my OP anyway? - that US is telling others not to make nukes because US is wiser and telling them 'nah it's no big deal, it's not good for you to have it'? It's truly altruistic?

If so, you're flat out wrong and just tad bit naive.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The simple answer to your question is 'power'. As in 'because they can', and as in 'power tends to corrupt'.

This makes people, use the rationalization you mention - that we like having them, and so then any excuse will do why it's ok for us and not others.

It's not fair - but people don't really see that, that's the 'power tends to corrupt'.

You bring a persepctive from another side; most Americans don't understand that.

Using an analogy, throughout history of discrimination against blacks, during slavery whites tended to think the institution was benevolent for blacks, even good for them; and during periods of racism, whited did not understand too well the black perspective, why it was wrong. They mainly resented when blacks would rebel against it. One of the common phrases had to do with 'good n*****', meaning one who did not rebel. Same with the phrase 'uppity negro'.

It was an education process - including the historic speech by JFK asking 'would you trade places with a black person' - to help people understand another view.

The nuclear issue is very clear to non-Americans as an unfair policy by the US, and to Americans as the only sensible policy, for them to have nukes and others not to.

There is a grain of truth to the defenders, that the fewer nations that have them the less likely their use is, as long as those few nations don't take advantage of that; and that the US is somewhat more conservative about threatening their use than some other nations would be.

But we Americans tend to not understand the aggressiveness we have had with them, the risks we have taken. We think of the US as a nation that would never use them recklessly.

But our history includes our leading general in a war wanting to use them against China and having to be fired by the President (with the public hugely on the side of the general).

It includes senior US Pentagon officials who have had a low bar for their use, many times actually suggesting it, with one infamous quote summarizing the problem, saying that if there were a nuclear war, and two Americans were left and one Russian, we won. This was less a joke than an actual reflection of some of the thinking of some cold warriors.

We had significant political movements calling for a first strike against the USSR, first 'before the got the bomb' and later 'before they got too strong'.

We put missiles on the border of the USSR, posing a threat that we refused to accept ourselves when they put missiles in Cuba - saying we were willing to go to nuclear war not only over the missiles in Cuba, but even over our refusal to officially agree to remove the Turkey missiles as part of the deal (though we did agree to privately on condition they never say we did.) The Pentagon and CIA and most of the president's advsiors all called for invading Cuba, unaware the Soviet troops there had tactical nukes to respond with.

We had President Nixon running on a 'secret plan' to end the war in Vietnam (after he had sabotaged the LBJ peace talked to improve his chances), where the plan, was for Kissenger to convince the North Vietnamese that Nixon was mentally ubalanced and willing to nuke them if they did not agree to peace (it didn't work).

We've had harmful atmospheric testing, and incidents such as the forced removal of over a thousand native citizens from an area we wanted to explode weapons, where there was a conspiracy to lie that there were no residents in that area, to get around legal protections for their rights.

We've played chicken with the USSR to find holes in their defense systems, in one case resulting in the President being caught in a public lie over Gary Powers - which also resulted in the cancellation of his last chance for arms talks with the Soviets at a planned conference.

We've had a variety of suspected cases of the use of depleted uranium in our artillery.

While there's a case to be made for the use of nukes at the end of WWII, the use was done in a context of very little concern for the civilian casualties, late in a brutal war.

Our firembombing of cities, which Robert McNamara, who was a leader in planning, admitted was a war crime, showed a terrible willingness to kill masses of civilians.

Speaking of McNamara, the military leadership has been so poor at times, that when McNamara became the Secretary of defense, no one outside the Strategic Air Command had ever seen the nuclear war plans, the targets, and he asked to see them and was told no by the Curtis LeMay Air Force, that they were Air Force plans and not his business. He had to get a direct presedential order to see them, and found an arbitrary list of thousands of Societ cities.

Also on McNamara, it includes spending trillions on building tens of thousand of weapons, when McNamara says literally fewer than ten provides a full deterrent strategically.

The history paints a picture far from the sober, conservative nation to claim the right to have nukes that most Americans want to believe.

Rather, the history suggests too much willingness to partake in and condone aggressive, immoral, sometimes misguided military actions, from Vietnam to East Timor to Grenada.

It seems to me that the US doesn't have a good case for claiming the exclusive right to nukes. If a ban can be implemented and ensured by monitoring, that seems the right policy - and reportedly, Obama has committed to that goal at the G20 summit (which is not as new as many Americans may think - the US ha spledged that before, but did not keep its word.)
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: seemingly random
Because we say so.

Good. It's better that you know that than the hicks I've encountered saying crap like, "It's because USA is the defender of justice and mankind, others nuke makers are evil etc"

You see it for what it is- a selfish power play under the charade of superhero (which any other countries in the shoes of US would do the same thing).
What's a hick? Watching too much fox news?

We have also selfishly helped the world reduce or eradicate several diseases: polio and tuberculosis come to mind. Cynically, if people are dying or dead they can't buy our products.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Every country says hypocritical things so? I don't see why you are singling out the US either, China doesn't want north korea to have nuclear weapons either.

Right. Everyone is a hypocrite. I'm singling out US because in this specific issue, US _is_ telling others NOT to build nuke.

What most of the world and all of the current nuclear powers want is for countries that don't currently have nuclear weapons to never make nuclear weapons. Whats wrong with that?

BS. Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

See my first example and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not you, i wouldn't be pissed. I don't own a gun nor do I care to even if someone told me not to have any.
And why are you still singling the US out? Its almost every country telling others not to build a nuke. The US is just the loudest.

plenty to protect ourselves with? nukes act as a deterrent but does not offer full protection.

You do know that your logic is flawed. In the gun theory, if you don't have any, you may feel fine because upper authority such as police can protect you, etc...

Not between nations. There is no police above countries that protects them when shit hits the fan. It's every man for themselves. It's in your nature to protect yourself.

If you were a Country and didn't care for self defense (nuke), there's no one there to help you buddy. You're dead if something happens. And even during the peaceful times, you'll always be a fringe country that no one would take you seriously for.

you're an idiot. if a nuclear power went nuclear on a non-nuclear power, even if it was a small little speck in the world like say...Taiwan. the whole fucking world will turn against that nuclear aggressor.

So is that what you like? Always hoping and depending on others to help you?

Good thing US is smarter than that. No one will fuck with you if you YOURSELF is strong (armed with nukes).

What is your point to my OP anyway? - that US is telling others not to make nukes because US is wiser and telling them 'nah it's no big deal, it's not good for you to have it'? It's truly altruistic?

If so, you're flat out wrong and just tad bit naive.

No, i'm driving in the point that its not just the US. I don't get why you are so pissy about the US. What I'm saying is that its not just the US. Its most of the whole world that does not want countries like south korea, north korea, Iran, building nuclear weapons.
 

Clair de Lune

Banned
Sep 24, 2008
762
1
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Every country says hypocritical things so? I don't see why you are singling out the US either, China doesn't want north korea to have nuclear weapons either.

Right. Everyone is a hypocrite. I'm singling out US because in this specific issue, US _is_ telling others NOT to build nuke.

What most of the world and all of the current nuclear powers want is for countries that don't currently have nuclear weapons to never make nuclear weapons. Whats wrong with that?

BS. Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

See my first example and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not you, i wouldn't be pissed. I don't own a gun nor do I care to even if someone told me not to have any.
And why are you still singling the US out? Its almost every country telling others not to build a nuke. The US is just the loudest.

plenty to protect ourselves with? nukes act as a deterrent but does not offer full protection.

You do know that your logic is flawed. In the gun theory, if you don't have any, you may feel fine because upper authority such as police can protect you, etc...

Not between nations. There is no police above countries that protects them when shit hits the fan. It's every man for themselves. It's in your nature to protect yourself.

If you were a Country and didn't care for self defense (nuke), there's no one there to help you buddy. You're dead if something happens. And even during the peaceful times, you'll always be a fringe country that no one would take you seriously for.

you're an idiot. if a nuclear power went nuclear on a non-nuclear power, even if it was a small little speck in the world like say...Taiwan. the whole fucking world will turn against that nuclear aggressor.

So is that what you like? Always hoping and depending on others to help you?

Good thing US is smarter than that. No one will fuck with you if you YOURSELF is strong (armed with nukes).

What is your point to my OP anyway? - that US is telling others not to make nukes because US is wiser and telling them 'nah it's no big deal, it's not good for you to have it'? It's truly altruistic?

If so, you're flat out wrong and just tad bit naive.

No, i'm driving in the point that its not just the US. I don't get why you are so pissy about the US. What I'm saying is that its not just the US. Its most of the whole world that does not want countries like south korea, north korea, Iran, building nuclear weapons.

I guess that's the South Korean part of me. :) Your point is taken. I singled out US because of noobs who think it's NOT about power play but comes from good will.
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,570
15,105
136
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I wouldn't hesitate to guess that the Usa has a nuke or two, deployed on it's bases in Australia
- you know a sour grapes weapon, for when it's creditors come for their money! hahaa
the next few years are going to be fun.

I doubt it, since we have all those handy nuclear subs carrying Trident missiles, land based ballistic missiles, and probably still have a ton of nukes we can dumb into B-2 and B-52 bombers.

Yup, this is OT but US has shit tons of $$$$$ and biggest military budget known to mankind.

They don't need a physical place like Australia. They have hundreds of behemoth-class subs with nukes hiding all over the five seas.

Hahaha... hundreds of subs? Exaggerate by just a little?

According to Wikipedia:
18 Ohio class ballistic missile subs in commission with 4 of those converted to guided missile subs
45 Los Angeles attack subs (don't carry nukes) in commission
3 Seawolf class in commission - attack subs, no nukes
5 Virginia class attack subs (with 4 under construction/ordered and up to 9 more planned) - no nukes

That means that there are about 14 nuclear armed submarines in the US navy at this point.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Navy#Submarines
 

Clair de Lune

Banned
Sep 24, 2008
762
1
0
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I wouldn't hesitate to guess that the Usa has a nuke or two, deployed on it's bases in Australia
- you know a sour grapes weapon, for when it's creditors come for their money! hahaa
the next few years are going to be fun.

I doubt it, since we have all those handy nuclear subs carrying Trident missiles, land based ballistic missiles, and probably still have a ton of nukes we can dumb into B-2 and B-52 bombers.

Yup, this is OT but US has shit tons of $$$$$ and biggest military budget known to mankind.

They don't need a physical place like Australia. They have hundreds of behemoth-class subs with nukes hiding all over the five seas.

Hahaha... hundreds of subs? Exaggerate by just a little?

According to Wikipedia:
18 Ohio class ballistic missile subs in commission with 4 of those converted to guided missile subs
45 Los Angeles attack subs (don't carry nukes) in commission
3 Seawolf class in commission - attack subs, no nukes
5 Virginia class attack subs (with 4 under construction/ordered and up to 9 more planned) - no nukes

That means that there are about 14 nuclear armed submarines in the US navy at this point.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Navy#Submarines

Yea it was an exaggeration to make a point. :p
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,570
15,105
136
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Let us look at history of mankind and who deployed actual nukes...

Hiroshima and Nagasaki comes to mind...

So we're going to turn this thread into a justification for or against the use of nuclear weapons on some of the major industrial centers of Japan at the end of the second world war?
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

If a nuke detonates in DC, London, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tel-Aviv, etc. and no one knows the party responsible since it was not delivered via a missile, what good is a retaliatory nuclear arsenal?

The more hands they are in, the more likely something like that will happen. Especially in nations that are at risk of falling into civil war (Pakistan, North Korea) or ones that have sworn to wipe other nations off the earth (Iran). The US and Russia have greatly reduced their stockpiles in the past several years. AFAIK, the US does not stockpile or develop other types WMDs (like biological and definite chemical weapons).

Since the end of Korean War 60 years ago to today, US just won't let go of South Korea to be on their own (That's how SKs feel now).
If South Korea no longer wants the US to help protect it, why does it pay the US to stay?

In 80s, South Korea wanted to make nukes themselves.
I do not doubt that the west discouraged proliferation, but why did South Korea sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,502
35,192
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Long post deleted to save space.

Would you agree that it is in the US' interests to keep the nuclear club small and, if it were possible, have the US as the sole nuclear power?

On the flip side, it appears to be in every other nation's interest to obtain nukes for the exact same reasons it is in the US' interests to see that they don't. (Understanding that the costs of obtaining nuclear weapons is the underlying reason so few states have pursued them.)
 

seemingly random

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2007
5,277
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
...
It seems to me that the US doesn't have a good case for claiming the exclusive right to nukes. If a ban can be implemented and ensured by monitoring, that seems the right policy - and reportedly, Obama has committed to that goal at the G20 summit (which is not as new as many Americans may think - the US ha spledged that before, but did not keep its word.)
Nations that have nukes:
u.s.
france
great britain
germany (u.s. controlled?)
russia
various former ussr states
israel
pakistan
india
china
japan?
others not declared?

Is the u.s. demanding that these countries get rid of theirs?

It seems that banning weapons grade nuclear material is a pipe dream unless all nuclear material (and all knowledge) is eliminated - including nuclear power plants and submarines.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
1,157
0
71
because we dont need runaway nukes in the world! you hear me boy?
i get sunburn easy, my neck in particular.
 

Clair de Lune

Banned
Sep 24, 2008
762
1
0
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Let us look at history of mankind and who deployed actual nukes...

Hiroshima and Nagasaki comes to mind...

So we're going to turn this thread into a justification for or against the use of nuclear weapons on some of the major industrial centers of Japan at the end of the second world war?

No it's a simple statement directed to that other poster whose response to my OP was 'US don't want others to use nukes because it's bad for them'.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: Clair de Lune
Originally posted by: maddogchen

Every country says hypocritical things so? I don't see why you are singling out the US either, China doesn't want north korea to have nuclear weapons either.

Right. Everyone is a hypocrite. I'm singling out US because in this specific issue, US _is_ telling others NOT to build nuke.

What most of the world and all of the current nuclear powers want is for countries that don't currently have nuclear weapons to never make nuclear weapons. Whats wrong with that?

BS. Why is it any of US' business? Especially when they have plenty to protect yourselves with it?

See my first example and put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not you, i wouldn't be pissed. I don't own a gun nor do I care to even if someone told me not to have any.
And why are you still singling the US out? Its almost every country telling others not to build a nuke. The US is just the loudest.

plenty to protect ourselves with? nukes act as a deterrent but does not offer full protection.

You do know that your logic is flawed. In the gun theory, if you don't have any, you may feel fine because upper authority such as police can protect you, etc...

Not between nations. There is no police above countries that protects them when shit hits the fan. It's every man for themselves. It's in your nature to protect yourself.

If you were a Country and didn't care for self defense (nuke), there's no one there to help you buddy. You're dead if something happens. And even during the peaceful times, you'll always be a fringe country that no one would take you seriously for.

you're an idiot. if a nuclear power went nuclear on a non-nuclear power, even if it was a small little speck in the world like say...Taiwan. the whole fucking world will turn against that nuclear aggressor.

So is that what you like? Always hoping and depending on others to help you?

Good thing US is smarter than that. No one will fuck with you if you YOURSELF is strong (armed with nukes).

What is your point to my OP anyway? - that US is telling others not to make nukes because US is wiser and telling them 'nah it's no big deal, it's not good for you to have it'? It's truly altruistic?

If so, you're flat out wrong and just tad bit naive.

No, i'm driving in the point that its not just the US. I don't get why you are so pissy about the US. What I'm saying is that its not just the US. Its most of the whole world that does not want countries like south korea, north korea, Iran, building nuclear weapons.

I guess that's the South Korean part of me. :) Your point is taken. I singled out US because of noobs who think it's NOT about power play but comes from good will.

From my point of view, I'm from Taiwan, and the US did not allow Taiwan to build nuclear weapons. It even had spies in the Taiwan military report back to the US that Taiwan was attempting to build nukes back in the day. The US basically put its foot on Taiwan's throat and ordered them to stop.

But am I angry about that? Not really. What would come of Taiwan having nukes? Well we'd be a little higher in the scale against China. But would it really make the world safer? No, instead of a military showdown, its now a nuclear showdown. And when it comes to a nuclear showdown it will be Me walking into the middle of Shanghai with a nuclear device and blowing up as many fucking Chinese people as I can. And most likely all of Taiwan is nuked. But I figure I can kill more than 20 million (Taiwan's population) in the most populated area of Shanghai so there you fuckers!

But without nuclear weapons we know that China is sane enough not to go nuclear on Taiwan because it knows the whole world will turn against them. Even though some Chinese generals wanted to drop neutron bombs on Taiwan, their leaders aren't dumb.
 

gingermeggs

Golden Member
Dec 22, 2008
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'US don't want others to use nukes because it's bad for them'

indeed it is- it makes them a target for terrorist infiltration.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,502
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Originally posted by: maddogchen

But without nuclear weapons we know that China is sane enough not to go nuclear on Taiwan because it knows the whole world will turn against them. Even though some Chinese generals wanted to drop neutron bombs on Taiwan, their leaders aren't dumb.

Which is the point made by Richard Rhodes in Dark Sun. How many nukes constitute a deterrent? Looking back at the history of the Cold War, the US in possession of a few bombs (The Soviets knew it was less than five) was sufficient deterrence to prevent Stalin from moving against western Europe. Even Stalin wasn't willing to write off five Soviet cities. So the number needed for deterrence seems to be more than none but less than five. The rest is just a jobs program.