How come chicks don't have to do Selective Service?

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bigalt

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2000
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The whole draft thing sucks anyway. Besides the criteria that the draftees have to be capable of fighting, the other basic philosophy is the grab the people that are the most expendable.

Who the hell can judge who's expendable? I mean, my neighbor who works at an electric company is going to get drafted way in front of me, a Ph.D. student in Bioengineering. I guess the government thinks that me sitting at a computer looking through the Off Topic section is pretty valuable to the country.

I realize that a draft is vital, though. I think it should encompass everyone.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< Actually, there are a lot of women ROTC students on my campus lobbying for it. >>

Well, that's because they're pie-eyed kids on college campus, who will likely look back in 15 years and think "DAMN was I stupid."

The military isn't a social program, it isn't a place we go to frolic in the meadows, smell daisies and feel good about our civil rights. A military is for killing people and breaking things.

There is ALREADY much resentment that many job functions in combat support units have been redesigned so that where there once was only one person, now there is two, where there was three, now there is five, because women can't pull their weight and so the duties must be distributed between more personnel. There was one incident in the press where a female Apache crew-member refused to carry her tools they were so heavy (about 85lbs). That is demoralizing, fosters resentment, and damages unity. Brains and dedication, though genderless traits, only get ya so far, sugar.

One Army study suggested it was an enormous waste of time, expense, and dedication of resources to "test" 5,000 women just to find the 4 or 5 who could physically pull all the weight of their male counterparts. It was far more fruitful to test 5,000 men in order to find the 40 or 50 who couldn't pull their weight.

Sorry gals, you're only weaker in physical aspects, let's not try to fool ourselves so we can 'feel good' about it.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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Well, if you are going to refute me, at least acknowlege my other points as well. (posts above) :frown:

Whether they will regret it in future years is irrevelant, Im sure many of the male soldiers who will die in this war might have regreted signing up as well.

I havent heard about that female unwilling to do her job, and would be interested in the details, do you have a link? Its generally not fair to penalize the whole sex because of one bad soldier.


One Army study suggested it was an enormous waste of time, expense, and dedication of resources to "test" 5,000 women just to find the 4 or 5 who could physically pull all the weight of their male counterparts. It was far more fruitful to test 5,000 men in order to find the 40 or 50 who couldn't pull their weight.


I find this incredibly hard to believe. Please, a link to the study. I dont know ANY women who are in ROTC, or in the actual military, who are unable to pull 150-200 pounds. 4-5 women out of 5,000? Please. Maybe if you are testing blue-haired grandma's, but women already in the military? I think not.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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The only thing I have handy is the following article, which I know of no internet source. Do a search, there is plenty of info on this topic. A "real" woman knows her limitations.

Reader's Digest - Women in Combat

Should Women Go Into Combat?

A female soldier brings her perspective to the ongoing debate

By Catherine L. Aspy


Inside my boots my feet had turned to hamburger. My uniform, even my belt, was soaking with sweat, and my back and shoulders were numb from the 40 pounds of gear in my rucksack. The climax of Army basic training at Fort Jackson, S.C., a 12-mile march, was almost over. Determined to keep up, I forced my exhausted muscles to move. But few of the other women in the company remained with me near the front. Many were straggling, and some rode the truck that followed to retrieve discarded rucksacks. The men, meanwhile, were swinging along, calling cadence. They seemed to relish the whole thing.

That march confirmed something which had struck me often during the previous eight weeks: with rare exceptions, the women in my unit could not physically compete with the men. Many were unable to lift heavy weights, scale barriers or pull themselves along a rope suspended above a safety net. Mixed running groups had inevitably sorted themselves out by sex; in final tests on two-mile runs, the average woman took 18 minutes, the average man about 14.

It was apparent that too many of the men weren't challenged enough by the training regimen. There were certainly good soldiers among the women in my company; later on, during regular duty at a military-intelligence installation, I saw women of all the service branches perform as well as or better than men in a variety of capacities.

Nevertheless, the huge physical performance gap, so obvious in basic training, forced me to consider the implications of placing women in ground combat units. Today the nearly 200,000 women in the nation's armed forces (14 percent of all active-duty personnel) serve as everything from Air Force fighter pilots to military police officers to captains of Navy ships. But the direct combat arms of the Army and Marines infantry, armor and field artillery-are closed to them.

Should women be allowed into these units as well? Many believe they should. After all, we Americans resent being barred from anything; it's part of our instinct for freedom.

Former Rep. Patricia Schroeder (D., Colo.) declared, "Combat-exclusion laws have outlived their usefulness and are now nothing more than institutionalized discrimination." It's not an issue I thought about much when I enlisted. I'm sure if I had been asked at the time whether women should be allowed in combat, I would have at least said, "maybe."

Now I say "no." Everything I observed during my hitch in the Army, and later, as I studied the issue and talked to others inside and outside the military, has convinced me this would be a mistake. Combat is not primarily about brains, or patriotism, or dedication to duty. There is no question women soldiers have those in abundance. Combat is about war-fighting capacity and the morale of the unit. Here physical strength can be a life-and-death issue.

And that is why the physical disparities between men and women cannot be ignored.

Unequal Load

For years, Sgt. Kelly Logan [not her real name] believed that women should be allowed into combat units, that "it didn't matter if you were a man or a woman-there is one standard,
we all meet it, bond, and drive on with the mission." Then came her 1997 tour of duty with peacekeeping forces in Bosnia.

?I had a complete change in attitude," she says. "When we had to do things like digging and reinforcing bunkers, the guys ended up doing most of the physical work. The women tended to move themselves to the sidelines." Logan watched resentment build until it undermined the unit's morale. She also observed that many women were "so unprepared for heavy-duty soldiering that they would have endangered the unit in a crisis."

Patrolling in Bosnia required soldiers to remain on high alert and in full battle gear, including flak vests and ammo. Says Logan: "The equipment prevented many of the women from moving as quickly as men, let alone being combat-effective." While some women may be up to the rigors of combat, she says, "they are the rare exception. And for some individuals, it was only a matter of time before the platonic bonds progressed to sex, and then all kinds of disruptions ensued."

Logan has reluctantly concluded that "women cannot bond with men in a unit the same way men do." But she cannot say so openly, and insisted that her real name not be used. "It can definitely hurt your career to speak your mind publicly about these things." The expectation in military units has always been that you pull your own load. But an Apache helicopter pilot told me that his female crew chief simply refused to carry her tools, which weighed 60 to 80 pounds. "The Army is supposed to be about not showing favoritism," says Desert Storm veteran Sam Ryskind, who was a mechanic in the famed 82nd Airborne Division "But the females I trained with were de facto exempted from any heavy-lifting jobs."

Whether it was changing truck tires, loading cargo, or even moving heavy cooking pots into position on the chow line, Ryskind says men "always pulled the hard work. Pretty soon this made it an us-and-them situation." While these experiences do not reflect actual combat conditions, they point to the kinds of intractable problems that would arise if women were in combat units.

In 1994 an Army rule barring women from hundreds of "combat support" positions was eliminated. Meanwhile the Army tried to institute tests to match a soldier's physical strength to a specific "military occupational specialty," or MOS. Then it was discovered that the tests would have disqualified most Army women from 65 percent of the more than 200 MOSs. The tests were scrapped.

The Strength Factor

To deal with the male-female performance gap, the Army has increased emphasis on "teamwork." No one is against teamwork-that's the essence of the military. But in some cases it has become a euphemism for defining down military tasks, as when three or four soldiers are needed to carry an injured comrade instead of two.

"From a combat standpoint this is just ludicrous," notes William Gregor, a veteran of combat in Vietnam who is now associate professor of social sciences at the Army's School of Advanced Military Studies in Fort Leavenworth Kan. "You may not have extra people around. And battle wears you down. A unit where one person can't pull his or her weight becomes a weaker unit."

I'm five feet, six inches tall, and I arrived at basic training weighing 135 pounds. I was taller than many women in my unit. But the average female soldier is 4.7 inches shorter and 33.9 pounds lighter than her male counterpart. She has 37.8 pounds less lean body mass. This is critical because greater lean body mass is closely related to physical strength. A U.S. Navy study of dynamic upper-torso strength in 38 men and women found that the women possessed about half the lifting power of the men. In another Navy study, the top seven percent of 239 women scored in the same range as the bottom seven percent of men in upper-body strength.

Even though I had been athletic in high school and had been toughened by two months' training, that final 12-mile march was a killer. One reason: cardio-respiratory capacity; the rate at which the heart, lungs and blood vessels deliver oxygen to working muscles. Trainers know that this capacity is key to sustained physical performance. And numerous studies have revealed differences by sex. "In general," summarized the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces, "women have a smaller heart mass, heart volume and cardiac output than men."

Some who want women in combat units acknowledge these differences, but claim they're
based on stereotyping and can be minimized by extra training. It isn't that simple. In a 1997 Army study, for example, 46 women were given a specially designed 24-week physical-training program to see if they could improve their ability to do "very heavy" lifting. During the training, the number of women who qualified for these jobs increased from 24 percent to 78 percent. Still, on average they were unable to match the lifting performance of men who did not undergo the program.

But what about those few women who might qualify for combat units? Gregor, who has done extensive research on male-female physical performance, questions how realistic it is to train 100 women for combat on the chance of finding a handful who will meet - or in exceptional cases exceed - the minimum requirements.

Tougher Standards?

The interchangeability of every soldier in a combat emergency is an enduring principle of an army's effectiveness as a fighting force. It assumes that each has received the same training and can perform to the same basic standard. That's still true for men who sign up to go directly into the Army's combat arms. They train "the old way," in a harsh, demanding environment. It's no longer true elsewhere.

Under mixed-gender basic training instituted in 1994, men and women are held to different standards. The regimen became less challenging, to hide the difference in physical performance between men and women (although the Army denies this). Eventually, the softness of basic training became an object of such widespread public ridicule that "tougher" rules were drawn up. Even with these new standards, scheduled to take effect this month, women can score as well as men who are being tested against a tougher standard.

In the 17-to-21 age group, for example, to get a minimum score of 50 points, a male recruit must do 35 push-ups, a female, 13. If women were allowed into combat units and these double standards were made universal, the result would be to put physically weaker forces into the field. An Army publicity release defended these "tougher" standards on the ground that they "promote gender equity" and "level the playing field."

I don't know about the "playing" field. But somehow I think the field of actual combat will not be very level.

Catherine l. Aspy graduated from Harvard in 1992 and served two years in the Army. She is now in the Individual Ready Reserve. Aspy was assisted in the reporting of this article by the Reader's Digest Washington Bureau.
 

WalkingDead

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2000
1,103
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<< your thoughts?

Your a wuss.
>>




This "wuss" had never registered for Selective Service but I have been to the middle-east 2 times, Somalia 3 times and earned my Combat Action medal.


Guys,

Please don't get off the focus, I'm not talking about should women serve in the military or how effective they are in the military.

My point is Equal Rights requires Equal Responsibility ( ie, register for Selective Service too).

It's unfair to denying benefits to one gender with requirments that the other sex doesn't have to commits.


 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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They should have to. Even if certain people don't want them in combat they should be considered for support roles. They want equality? They can get this too!

EDIT: Just skimmed the thread. I have yet to see a real compelling reason to refute their being conscripted along with men. MOST women are not as strong as MOST men. This is true. Some are stronger, and some would be just as capable in combat. I won't go into the psychology of men and women fighting alongside, or 10 men fighting for every 1 woman and all that, which is why i said that at the very least they should be put in support positions. The majority of any modern military is not fighters, but people in support positions. Women are just as capable in these positions.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
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Nice story tcsenter, but I think its recognized that if you are post to post two incredulous stories, you should be able to back them up with links, especially if you post is centered around it. You can tell me to search all you want, but Im not gonna wade through millions of homepages on the net just to find two alleged stories you refer to.


WalkingDead,

I agree with you on that point . :)

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Can we have critical thinking here? Just one question. Are women as strong as men? Answer for the stupid- no. Now are there exceptions? A few. Ok we going to count them? Let's count me. I'm a 5'11" 260 pound powerlifter with14% body fat. Now what does that matter? Not a rats behind. Because I am not in the military, and neither are the few women who are as strong as the average man. Do the math. It doesn't matter what you believe in this case because reality wins in a real death struggle.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Can we have critical thinking here? Just one question. Are women as strong as men? Answer for the stupid- no. Now are there exceptions? A few. Ok we going to count them? Let's count me. I'm a 5'11" 260 pound powerlifter with14% body fat. Now what does that matter? Not a rats behind. Because I am not in the military, and neither are the few women who are as strong as the average man. Do the math. It doesn't matter what you believe in this case because reality wins in a real death struggle.

Nobody is pretending women are, on average, as strong. It should be taken on a case by case basis. No 5'2" 105 pound male should be in the military either!

Anyway, it still doesn't mean they can't work in support positions.
 

Lucky

Lifer
Nov 26, 2000
13,126
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Nobody is pretending women are, on average, as strong. It should be taken on a case by case basis. No 5'2" 105 pound male should be in the military either!

Anyway, it still doesn't mean they can't work in support positions.




Im almost certain, depending of your definition of "support", that they can.

Beyond that, not every soldier who faces combat is 6'5", 250 pounds and can bench 400 pounds, so you cannot expect women to meet that standard.

It doesn't matter what you believe in this case because reality wins in a real death struggle.


Please elaborate.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Skoob I agree with both your points, but the tenor seems to be one ofgeneralizations. Can women be useful in support situations? Yes, I believe so. Should they get academic rewards in college? Yes to that too. What flips me out is the attitude that (yes on the average) men and women are not equal but effectively the same. There was a radio talk guy here in Boston who was fried by the audience because he said there are some differences physically between men and women. He pointed out in his opening remarks that the workers at the WTC sifting through the heavy rubble were men.Why? because men can lift heavier things. Now is he wrong? Oh maybe he wasn't PC for pointing out the fact, but he was right. Know what? All the people causing the grief couldn't dispute the facts, but relied on arguments of "Oh you're narrowminded" or "It isn't fair" That's all I mean
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Im almost certain, depending of your definition of "support", that they can.

What I mean is: Women are not currently every up to be conscripted into the military and work in support positions, right? Well, they should be if men are being conscripted.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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CONGRESS SHOULD HOLD HEARINGS BEFORE ALLOWING WOMEN IN COMBAT
By John Luddy

7/27/94


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secretary of the Army Togo West announced on June 1 that the Army soon will reclassify a number of combat assignments to make them available to women. (Memorandum from the Secretary of the Army for the Secretary of Defense, "Recommendations for Opening Additional Positions for Women Under the DOD Assignment Policy -- Decision Memorandum," June 1, 1994.) Positions as combat engineers, as air defense artillery specialists, and as pilots and crew members of helicopters on special operations missions until now have been closed to women in accordance with long-standing Pentagon regulations. West's proposals represent a complete reversal of this traditional Army policy.

If the Army brass has its way, however, West's decision will not stand. He withdrew his proposal after nearly unanimous opposition from such top Army officers as Chief of Staff General Gordon Sullivan. (Eric Schmitt, "Generals Oppose Combat By Women," The New York Times, June 17, 1994, p. A1.) In the words of Sullivan's deputy, General J.H. Binford Peay III, before the Senate Armed Services Committee on June 16, "I do not think it is appropriate to open up the traditional positions of infantry, armor, field artillery, engineer at certain levels of the battlefield, air defense at certain levels of the battlefield, special operating force aviation, and a few others." (General J.H. Binford Peay III, USA, testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, June 16, 1994.) It is no surprise that seasoned military leaders reject West's proposal. Allowing women into these units would damage the military's hard-earned effectiveness and, for the first time in U.S. history, deliberately expose women to enemy fire and extreme risk of death and capture. West is expected to announce a revised policy later this summer but, in the meantime, is sticking by his original proposal.

Before giving the Secretary of the Army or other Administration officials free rein to change long-standing U.S. policy toward women in combat, Congress should learn for itself what such a change of policy would entail. It could begin by reviewing the findings of the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces, a bipartisan task force appointed by former President George Bush to examine this issue. After a year's study and hundreds of hours of hearings, the Commission voted unanimously in November 1993 to codify into law the Army's existing regulations exempting women from combat. The Commission also voted nine to four that the existing "risk rule" regarding non-combat positions be retained. (Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces, Report to the President, November 15, 1992, pp. 24-27, 36-37.)

An appropriate forum for review of these and other findings of the Presidential Commission would be joint hearings by the Senate and House Armed Services Committees, during which West and other senior Pentagon Officials should be required to answer a number of troublesome questions:

Are women physically suited to the rigors of ground combat?

How will bearing and raising children affect a woman's readiness to deploy on short notice, as is frequently required of military units?

What are the potential consequences of women and men operating in intimate proximity away from home for extended periods of time?

How do women serving in the armed forces feel about being assigned to combat units?

What has been the experience of nations that have mixed men and women in combat units?

WHAT IS BEHIND THE ARMY'S NEW PUSH FOR WOMEN IN COMBAT?

Secretary West's changes in Army assignment policies came in response to then-Secretary of Defense Les Aspin's January 1994 decision to loosen the military's long-standing ban on women in combat. First, Aspin rescinded the so-called risk rule, which prevented the assignment of women to support units -- engineering, supply, and military police units, for example -- that operate with combat forces (such as tanks and infantry) and face a substantial risk of contact with the enemy. Second, he ordered the armed services to review their personnel assignment policies. Those jobs that meet the Pentagon's narrow definition of "direct ground combat" -- "engaging an enemy on the ground with individual or crew-served weapons [such as machine guns and rifles], while being exposed to hostile fire and to a high probability of direct physical contact with the hostile force's personnel" (Memorandum from the Secretary of Defense to the [Service Secretaries], Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Assistant Secretary of Defense (Personnel and Readiness), and Assistant Secretary of Defense (Reserve Affairs), "Direct Ground Combat Definition and Assignment Rule," January 13, 1994.) -- are to remain closed to women. Positions in units which "routinely collocate" with direct ground combat forces also are to remain closed, but women are to be allowed in all other assignments. Secretary West's June 1 memo is the Army's response to these instructions, which are to take effect October 1, 1994.

Calling Warfare Something Else Does Not Make It Easier or Safer. The Administration's new definition of "non-combat" positions is both inaccurate and unrealistic. In his memo, Secretary West explicitly applies Aspin's definition "strictly as written," meaning that a job must involve simultaneously "engaging the enemy," "being exposed to hostile fire," and having "direct physical contact" with the enemy. However, a soldier facing any one of these conditions surely is engaged in combat. Moreover, Aspin's definition implies that only riflemen and machine gunners can be "in combat." But someone can be "exposed to hostile fire" well outside of rifle range; a soldier can be killed by an artillery round fired from twenty miles away. And is "direct physical contact" only actual hand-to-hand combat, or is being within range of the enemy's hand grenades or pistols "direct" enough?

In fine-tuning a definition of combat to suit their political objective, the Administration is forging neat distinctions which simply do not exist on the battlefield. Positions like combat engineer and air defense artillery specialist have been closed to women because they involve the likelihood of direct exposure to enemy fire. They also involve operating in proximity to infantry, artillery, and other combat forces whose sole purpose is to find and destroy the enemy. The Administration's new rules for combat assignment imply that the enemy will attack only U.S. forces engaged in "direct ground combat" as Aspin defines it. At any time, however, those in what the Administration would call "non-combat" units can be hit by enemy fire, have physical contact with enemy troops, and otherwise "engage the enemy." The West memorandum makes clear the Clinton Administration's intention to open such positions to women without regard for the realities of the battlefield.

The Real Agenda: Career Opportunity Over Military Effectiveness. The Clinton Administration's real objective in pushing to place women in harm's way is explicit. Aspin's instructions in January advised the armed services to "use this guidance to expand opportunities for women. No units or positions previously open to women will be closed under these instructions." Aspin further stated that "we've made historic progress in opening up opportunities for women in all of the services.... [E]xpanding the roles of women in the military is the right thing to do, and it's also the smart thing to do." (Eric Schmitt, "Aspin Moves To Open Many Military Jobs to Women," The New York Times, January 14, 1994, p. 22.) In his June 1 memorandum, Army Secretary West echoed this position: "America's Army is proud to be on the forefront of providing opportunities for women.... [W]e take every opportunity to enhance the career opportunities of all service members.... " ("Recommendations for Opening Additional Positions for Women Under the DOD Assignment Policy -- Decision Memorandum," op. cit.) One analysis of West's memorandum notes that it "uses phrases such as 'career opportunity' no less than ten times, but references to military requirements are conspicuously absent." (Center for Military Readiness, news release, June 8, 1994.) The Administration claims that placing women in combat assignments will make the military more effective, but this claim is not supported by the evidence. It is time for Congress to examine that evidence.

QUESTIONS FOR CONGRESS

The Clinton Administration is proposing momentous changes in policy with serious implications for U.S. military effectiveness. Before changes in current combat restrictions are allowed to take effect in October, Congress must hold hearings on the role of women in America's defense. As part of these hearings, Members must ask Secretary of Defense William Perry, the Secretaries of each of the armed services, and senior uniformed officers five questions.

Question #1: Are women physically suited to the rigors of ground combat?

Answer: The evidence suggests that they are not. In weighing the ability of women to perform under combat conditions, the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces heard testimony from Army Lieutenant Colonel William Gregor, Chairman of the Department of Military Science at the University of Michigan, who conducted a test of Army officer candidates and found that:

The top 20 percent of women at West Point achieved scores on the Army Physical Fitness Test equivalent to the bottom 20 percent of male cadets.

Only seven percent of women can meet a score of 60 on the push-up test, while 78 percent of men exceed it.

A 20- to 30-year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50-year- old man.

Only one woman out of 100 could meet a physical standard achieved by 60 out of 100 men. Gregor concluded that going through this process would mean that "I have just traded off 60 soldiers for the prospect of getting one. The cost considerations are prohibitive." (Lt. Col. William Gregor, USA, testimony before the Presidential Commission, September 12, 1992, cited in the Presidential Commission's Report to the President, November 15, 1992, p. C-42.)

Soldiers under fire must have confidence in the physical abilities of their comrades. Before allowing women to face the stress of combat, Congress must hear from Lieutenant Colonel Gregor and other experts to determine whether women are physically suited for it.

Question #2: How will bearing and raising children affect a woman's readiness to deploy on short notice, as is frequently required of military units?

Answer: Because of pregnancy and family responsibilities, many women cannot be shipped out to a foreign crisis as quickly as men. During Operation Desert Storm, for example, enlisted women in the Navy were unavailable for overseas deployment nearly four times more often than men. At any given time, between 8 and 10 percent of women in the Navy are pregnant; (Department of the Navy, Navy Personnel Survey, 1990 Survey Report, Volume 2.) for the Army, the figure is 10 to 15 percent. (Michael Levin, Feminism and Freedom (New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Books, 1988), p. 235.) Because Navy regulations require pregnant sailors to be within six hours of a medical facility, each of these women must be replaced before a ship can sail. This could lead to sudden gaps in a small unit that depends on the presence of all members to complete its mission. Such gaps would damage the cohesion of a tightly knit combat team.

Moreover, this effect will be magnified as the military continues to shrink under the Clinton Admini-stration's defense budget cuts. Because it is getting more difficult to attract qualified candidates, military recruiters are trying to appeal to women with promises of career advancement. The result is a higher number of women as a percentage of the total force; while women accounted for only 14.5 percent of Army recruits four years ago, for example, they will comprise 20.5 percent this year. (Rowan Scarborough, "Military Recruiters Increasingly Rely on Women to Fill Ranks," The Washington Times, February 28, 1994, p. A1.) Lower unit readiness caused by the absence of child-rearing women inevitably will get worse as the military continues to attract a higher percentage of women its ranks.

Question #3: What are the potential consequences of women and men fighting alongside one another?

Answer: Combat is a team activity which brings people closer together than any other profession. A small number of women may possess the physical and mental toughness to perform some combat duties; but teamwork matters more than individual capabilities in combat, and this teamwork generally is undermined by the presence of women. On one support ship during Operation Desert Storm, 36 of the 360 women on board -- ten percent -- became pregnant. (Alecia Swasy, "Shipboard Pregnancies Force the Manly Navy to Cope With Moms," The Wall Street Journal, October 3, 1991, p. 1.) In a Roper survey conducted during the Gulf War, 64 percent of military personnel surveyed reported that sexual activity had taken place in their unit. (The Roper Organization, "Attitudes Regarding the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces: The Military Perspective," September 1992.) Mixing men and women in military units invites sexual attraction and special relationships, and these relationships -- or even the perception that they exist -- destroy the morale and cohesion which any fighting force must have to win wars. If more women join combat units that become open to them as a result of the Administration's new policies, this problem will only worsen.

Question #4: How do women serving in the armed forces feel about being assigned to combat units?

Answer: In a 1992 survey of Army women, between 70 and 80 percent of respondents favored allowing women to volunteer for combat. Yet, among the same respondents, 90 percent of female noncommissioned officers and 88 percent of enlisted women indicated that they would not volunteer; only 14 percent of the Army officers surveyed indicated that they would volunteer for combat assignments. And fully 52 percent of Army women claimed they would leave the service if women are compelled to serve in combat. (Laura Miller and Dr. Charles Moskos, "1992 Survey on Gender in the Military," Northwestern University, September 1992.)

The charge that barring women from combat units inhibits their career advancement is groundless. According to Department of Defense statistics, even with the combat exclusion for women, the services are promoting females at similar or faster rates than males. (Department of Defense, "Military Women in the Department of Defense," Volume VIII, July 1990, pp. 30, 73.) Expanding combat "opportunities" places the aspirations of feminist activists ahead of the wishes of most military women, who have expressed consistently strong personal resistance to being assigned to combat.

Question #5: What has been the experience of nations that have mixed men and women in combat units?

Answer: History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle. For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield. (Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces, International Trip Report, September 14-27, 1992.) These findings will come as no surprise to most Americans; in a recent national survey, two-thirds of those who favored the current policy barring women from ground combat cited the potential loss of mens' effectiveness as a reason. (The Roper Organization, "Attitudes Regarding the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces: The Public Perspective," September 1992, p. 41.)

CONCLUSION

The American people know that the purpose of the armed forces is to fight and win the nation's wars, not to serve as a laboratory for social "progress." While the military attempts to provide servicemen and women with rewarding careers, it must not do so at the expense of its readiness for war. Most Americans understand that the majority of men are physically stronger than the majority of women and that the risk of sexual attraction can undermine the cohesion and discipline necessary for success on the battlefield. Most are also uncomfor with the deliberate exposure of women to violence. Unfortunately, their common sense is not shared by the Clinton Administration, which already has shown a lack of sound military judgment regarding the assignment of known homosexuals to the armed forces, the use of force in Somalia, and the military build-up around Haiti.

When their very existence was threatened, many nations -- Israel during its 1948 war for independence, and both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany near the end of World War II -- used women in combat, removing them when the crisis passed. The U.S. faces no such threat today; moreover, thousands of qualified men and women are leaving the military as it gets smaller. The facts demonstrate that placing women in or near combat units will damage military effectiveness. Weakening America's military might in this way and at this time is particularly troubling. The U.S. armed services already are suffering from deep budget cuts and declining morale. (For a discussion of the military budget crisis, see John Luddy, "Stop the Slide Toward a Hollow Military," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder Update No. 209, January 14, 1994, and Baker Spring, "Fixing The 1995 Defense Budget," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder Update No. 227, June 22, 1994.) By holding hearings to examine the wisdom of the Clinton Administration's change in policy, Congress can stop the Administration from using the military as a laboratory for social engineering.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,953
576
126


<< Nice story tcsenter, but I think its recognized that if you are post to post two incredulous stories, you should be able to back them up with links, especially if you post is centered around it. You can tell me to search all you want, >>

If you're too lazy to education yourself, I'll consider that willfull ignorance. There simply ARE NOT links on the internet to every conceivable piece of printed material, not even close. I had these two on my hard drive, one I scanned from Reader's Digest and the other was emailed to me.
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
There's an easy solution: become accepted to college and receive your scholarships at the age of 16 (like me), and this will not be a problem for you...;)