How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty?

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Thank you for you insightful commentary. Not. Care to explain why you think it's "rubbish", and why you consider it "parroting your liberal mantra"? Maybe back up your slurs with a reasoned and rational argument supporting your oinions? Otherwise, I stand by what I said. I can't look into the minds of the millions of people who oppose abortion, but based on the comments and actions of their leaders and spokesman, they are anti-abortion, not pro-anything.

Honestly Bowfinger, having read much of your rubbish in the past I don't think you merit a well reasoned reponse, just pointing out your response was laughable at best. Any learned person would realise that the "leaders" of a given cause are generally those who are most fanatical and shouldn't be taken on face value, heck would you really want the repubs/moderates thinking that the lardass Mikey Moore is an accurate reflection of all Democrats??...and by your own admission isn't the simple fact someone is anti abortion equate to their being pro life for the unborn?? thus making them "pro" something??

I would say come back when you are less liberal and more level headed, but I know thats not gonna happen.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Thank you for you insightful commentary. Not. Care to explain why you think it's "rubbish", and why you consider it "parroting your liberal mantra"? Maybe back up your slurs with a reasoned and rational argument supporting your oinions? Otherwise, I stand by what I said. I can't look into the minds of the millions of people who oppose abortion, but based on the comments and actions of their leaders and spokesman, they are anti-abortion, not pro-anything.

Honestly Bowfinger, having read much of your rubbish in the past I don't think you merit a well reasoned reponse, just pointing out your response was laughable at best. Any learned person would realise that the "leaders" of a given cause are generally those who are most fanatical and shouldn't be taken on face value, heck would you really want the repubs/moderates thinking that the lardass Mikey Moore is an accurate reflection of all Democrats??...and by your own admission isn't the simple fact someone is anti abortion equate to their being pro life for the unborn?? thus making them "pro" something??

I would say come back when you are less liberal and more level headed, but I know thats not gonna happen.

Translation: I was just attacking and don't really have a well thought-out case for my position. To conceal my lameness, I will therefore accuse my opponent of being unworthy of a substantive argument.

To answer your question, as I already explained, being anti-abortion in no way automatically implies being pro-life, any more than being pro-choice must also mean pro-abortion. In both cases some are; many are not.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: bozack
the only time I would fully support abortion is either in an instance of rape, incest or possible harm to mother in birthing or underage pregnancy....yet I am a firm supporter of the death penalty for serious offenders especially serial killers. Allowing mothers to abort their children as a form of birth control for being the lazy ignorant slobs they are and then conversly condemning the death penalty for those failures in society who are human waste IMHO is nuts.

I think we're more in agreement than anything else (except for the condescending part)

I hate abortion as birth control and would like to see it limited to the situations you listed if safe and possible. "Safe and possible" is tough because there may be some privacy issues when a woman is forced to prove she was raped in any of the ways you mentioned.

I'm against the death penalty because jury verdicts are handed out by humans who are imperfect. If someone is sentenced to life in prison and later vindicated, the gov't can make reparations (though they'd never make up for lost freedom)...However, what can you give back to someone you've already put to death?

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: bozack
the only time I would fully support abortion is either in an instance of rape, incest or possible harm to mother in birthing or underage pregnancy....yet I am a firm supporter of the death penalty for serious offenders especially serial killers. Allowing mothers to abort their children as a form of birth control for being the lazy ignorant slobs they are and then conversly condemning the death penalty for those failures in society who are human waste IMHO is nuts..

Quoted for Truth

My question is not what, it's why. Why do you not support choice?

This could be interesting...

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: bozack
the only time I would fully support abortion is either in an instance of rape, incest or possible harm to mother in birthing or underage pregnancy....yet I am a firm supporter of the death penalty for serious offenders especially serial killers. Allowing mothers to abort their children as a form of birth control for being the lazy ignorant slobs they are and then conversly condemning the death penalty for those failures in society who are human waste IMHO is nuts..

Quoted for Truth

My question is not what, it's why. Why do you not support choice?

This could be interesting...

I have a feeling it won't be too interesting as pro-lifers see abortion as murder so it's no longer an idea of choice to them.

It would be like me asking you why you don't support the choice of families who take part in honor killings.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: loki8481
see above.

and how can a Christian be pro-death penalty at all?

I figure that since the basis of Christianity is eternal life, we just send them on to shop in another store. Let God sort'em out!

 

[datalink7]

How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty?

One would be termed killing an innocent life, the other killing a guilty or non-innocent person.

I don't really see the comparison.

 

[GopGuyCA]

I'm a believer in Christ and am Pro-Life while also for the death penalty.

But to be 100% honest.. I really do not believe in the death penalty. Not because I see it as being immoral or wrong but because I see it as being an easy way out.

If someone is on the verge of commiting suicide due to losing something in their life (loved one, family, job) they could seek out revenge on those people or strangers and then be convicted and have the government kill them for them.... Not really my idea of justice.

It's too easy for someone to just be killed off.

I'd rather have someone who would be up for the death penalty used to test cosmetics and shampoo while living life behind bars. And by behind bars I mean, behind bars... Literally. Not locked up in a 3-star hotel with hot meals, cable TV and all those other luxories people behind bars have when compared to those on the street.

Only reason I am for the death penalty is because without it those people who run around on killing rampages are usually back on the streets in no time. Plus, locking people up with all the un-needed luxories they get is a waste of our tax dollars. That money should be going towards education... Not keeping someone nicely locked up until they die with food and entertainment.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: datalink7

How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty?

One would be termed killing an innocent life, the other killing a guilty or non-innocent person.

I don't really see the comparison.

because "thou shalt not kill" is followed by a period, not an "except..."

(not saying that you yourself are judeo-christian, but most pro-lifers are)

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: datalink7

How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty?

One would be termed killing an innocent life, the other killing a guilty or non-innocent person.

I don't really see the comparison.

because "thou shalt not kill" is followed by a period, not an "except..."

(not saying that you yourself are judeo-christian, but most pro-lifers are)

Oh, I didn't know this was a purely Christian religious question.

I know quite a few non-Christians (including Atheists) who are pro-life and also for the death penalty, and to them there isn't any corrolation between the two.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Translation: I was just attacking and don't really have a well thought-out case for my position. To conceal my lameness, I will therefore accuse my opponent of being unworthy of a substantive argument.

To answer your question, as I already explained, being anti-abortion in no way automatically implies being pro-life, any more than being pro-choice must also mean pro-abortion. In both cases some are; many are not.

Right Bow, honestly I would have a more pleasurable/enlightening/productive experience trying to potty train my cats than having a "discussion" with you on virtually any controversial topic in which we know we are on different sides of the fence.

Being pro ?choice? by definition means one is willing to trust female members of society with a life or death decision and ?hope? they do what is best with it, sorry if I am pessimistic but having first hand experience with those who have ?chosen? to abuse this ?right? on numerous occasions with little to no remorse made me somewhat jaded on the subject. Also I fail to see exactly in ANY of your previous replies to this thread where you bothered to explain anything, or are you referring to that stream of consciousness mind dump of a first response where you laughingly drew a parallel to the terms ?pro choice? ?death tax? ?liberal media? and ?patriot act??

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: ELP

My question is not what, it's why. Why do you not support choice?

This could be interesting...

ELP, I hardly doubt this will be interesting but to humor you....

As I said before, I would fully support the choice for abortion in either an instance of rape, incest, underage pregnancy, or possible harm to a mother through birthing...

However I am not and would never support those who are of consensual age and chose for whatever reason to become pregnant and then have an abortion, especially those who are married. I have known more than a few girls/women who have gotten themselves plastered/high and knowingly had unprotected sex, become impregnated, and had abortions with little to no remorse?one girl got knocked up by her long time boyfriend, had an abortion because he didn?t ?enjoy? the feeling of protected sex and then she went on after this to continue and have unprotected sex with this guy ended up getting pregnant again and then had yet another abortion.

Are cases like this in the minority? As of now I am sure they are, however with the changing views of American society and our current entitlement complex that is growing I can only see the ?me me me? generation abusing this ?right? even more, when they ?want their cake and to eat it too??.

I have no remorse/sympathy for those ignorant slobs who cannot bother themselves with using proper birth control methods and to punish an unborn child with a death sentence because their mother/father was a screw up IMHO is unfair?..

A question to you, what if you knew that your mother had seriously contemplated abortion upon learning of your birth? Would you be glad that she didn?t and instead chose to give you the gift of life??.personally I would rather lead a suck life than never have the chance at all.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
I think we're more in agreement than anything else (except for the condescending part)

I hate abortion as birth control and would like to see it limited to the situations you listed if safe and possible. "Safe and possible" is tough because there may be some privacy issues when a woman is forced to prove she was raped in any of the ways you mentioned.

I'm against the death penalty because jury verdicts are handed out by humans who are imperfect. If someone is sentenced to life in prison and later vindicated, the gov't can make reparations (though they'd never make up for lost freedom)...However, what can you give back to someone you've already put to death?

Yes yes, having read this I do see that we are on the same level re. our positions.....

I too would love to see abortion limited and am a firm believer that in certain situations it is a viable and good option, however like you I am against its use as a form of birth control and unfortunately being the pessimist that I am I just cannot in good conscious see people having unfettered access and not abusing this...as I said I have known more than a few who have and then even after continued to use it as a system of birth control with little to no remorse.

With the death penalty, I am really only in favor of it when there is no questionable evidence...when an unbrekable case is brought into the system where many were made to suffer or die...I do not agree with it in ANY instance where reasonable doubt can be applied...

so it does seem we are in agreement, just seems some of our points may have been lost in translation

 

[Tarpon6]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: datalink7

How can you be Pro-Life and Pro-Death Penalty?

One would be termed killing an innocent life, the other killing a guilty or non-innocent person.

I don't really see the comparison.

because "thou shalt not kill" is followed by a period, not an "except..."

(not saying that you yourself are judeo-christian, but most pro-lifers are)

Read the parts that come after that period. You will find the death penalty is an acceptable form of punishment in the bible.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
I think we're more in agreement than anything else (except for the condescending part)

I hate abortion as birth control and would like to see it limited to the situations you listed if safe and possible. "Safe and possible" is tough because there may be some privacy issues when a woman is forced to prove she was raped in any of the ways you mentioned.

I'm against the death penalty because jury verdicts are handed out by humans who are imperfect. If someone is sentenced to life in prison and later vindicated, the gov't can make reparations (though they'd never make up for lost freedom)...However, what can you give back to someone you've already put to death?

Yes yes, having read this I do see that we are on the same level re. our positions.....

I too would love to see abortion limited and am a firm believer that in certain situations it is a viable and good option, however like you I am against its use as a form of birth control and unfortunately being the pessimist that I am I just cannot in good conscious see people having unfettered access and not abusing this...as I said I have known more than a few who have and then even after continued to use it as a system of birth control with little to no remorse.

With the death penalty, I am really only in favor of it when there is no questionable evidence...when an unbrekable case is brought into the system where many were made to suffer or die...I do not agree with it in ANY instance where reasonable doubt can be applied...

so it does seem we are in agreement, just seems some of our points may have been lost in translation

I doubt that many use abortion as a regular birth control. AFAIK having an abort is not a nice experience and I think that most would avoid it at "all cost". Sometimes people make bad decissions and "accidents" happen. I would deny a woman to choose what she find is the best solution. I definately think that using birth control is the best way to prevent pregnancy, and therefore lots of inforamtion should be given to young people so the amount of abortions can be kept at a minimum. I would rather trust the girl to know what is best for her, than laying down a law that prevents her from taking a decision to keep her baby or not.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: biostud666

I doubt that many use abortion as a regular birth control. AFAIK having an abort is not a nice experience and I think that most would avoid it at "all cost". Sometimes people make bad decissions and "accidents" happen. I would deny a woman to choose what she find is the best solution. I definately think that using birth control is the best way to prevent pregnancy, and therefore lots of inforamtion should be given to young people so the amount of abortions can be kept at a minimum. I would rather trust the girl to know what is best for her, than laying down a law that prevents her from taking a decision to keep her baby or not.

Many no, but I am also certain that there are more than a few who chose to, as stated earlier I know of at least two personally (at least knew them as I no longer keep in touch)....

I would be all for allowing one with no question asked, however should a woman need a second that does not fall under those already permitted scenerios I mentioned then a mandatory steralization be ordered, and if the male in the picture is the same then he also should be steralized....

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: loki8481
see above.

and how can a Christian be pro-death penalty at all?

They are not. Some research would help before posting.

Death Penalty verdicts reached a 30 year low in 2003. The Religious Radical Right would rather house and feed the scum at taxpayer expense:

11-14-2004 Death sentences at 30-year low

WASHINGTON - The number of people sentenced to death reached a 30-year low in 2003, when the death row population fell for the third year in a row, the government reported yesterday.

Nationally, 267 people were removed from death row last year. That was the largest drop since 1976, when the Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

 

[maluckey]

Oddly enough, God himself directed killings in the Old Testament that the Christians and Jews study. Only with the new covenant of Joshua Ben Joseph (AKA Jesus) did the Death Penalty seem to go away.

BTW, Thou shalt not Kill, is not translated fully. The proper translation would be to kill as in murder. War is killing, and is not only authorized, but to fight on the Christian Gods side is Glorified.

Nowhere in the New or Old testament does it say that on a National level that you may not fight on the side of your creator against evil rulers. There are numerous example of great Biblical figures doing just that.

As far as the Bible and abortion, David was protected by Yah, while David was a fetus. God acknowledges a fetus as valuable, and a person with a name. If you are Christian, take note. God also acknowledged his own son upon his (Joshuas) conception.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: ELP

My question is not what, it's why. Why do you not support choice?

This could be interesting...

ELP, I hardly doubt this will be interesting but to humor you....

As I said before, I would fully support the choice for abortion in either an instance of rape, incest, underage pregnancy, or possible harm to a mother through birthing...

However I am not and would never support those who are of consensual age and chose for whatever reason to become pregnant and then have an abortion, especially those who are married. I have known more than a few girls/women who have gotten themselves plastered/high and knowingly had unprotected sex, become impregnated, and had abortions with little to no remorse?one girl got knocked up by her long time boyfriend, had an abortion because he didn?t ?enjoy? the feeling of protected sex and then she went on after this to continue and have unprotected sex with this guy ended up getting pregnant again and then had yet another abortion.

Are cases like this in the minority? As of now I am sure they are, however with the changing views of American society and our current entitlement complex that is growing I can only see the ?me me me? generation abusing this ?right? even more, when they ?want their cake and to eat it too??.

I have no remorse/sympathy for those ignorant slobs who cannot bother themselves with using proper birth control methods and to punish an unborn child with a death sentence because their mother/father was a screw up IMHO is unfair?..

A question to you, what if you knew that your mother had seriously contemplated abortion upon learning of your birth? Would you be glad that she didn?t and instead chose to give you the gift of life??.personally I would rather lead a suck life than never have the chance at all.

Actually, I'm pretty glad she chose life. The key word here is 'chose'. SHE chose life, the gov't didn't choose it for her.

But anyway, you still didn't answer my question. Why? I'm sorry that you know women who chose abortion, really I am, but why can't they make their choice? I assume if you got a woman pregnant intentionally or not, you would want her to come to term. That's great. But it's still her choice. (For the time being anyway.)

The bottom line: If you have something, alive or not, growing INSIDE YOUR OWN PERSON, why should the gov't have more control over it than you?

As I said in threads before, in a supposedly free society, this is a no-brainer. In a free society, one's own choice about one's own body and everything IN it or solely dependent on it, should be held in higher regard than the gov't's 'opinion' on it.

So again I ask you, why?

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: ELP

My question is not what, it's why. Why do you not support choice?

This could be interesting...

ELP, I hardly doubt this will be interesting but to humor you....

As I said before, I would fully support the choice for abortion in either an instance of rape, incest, underage pregnancy, or possible harm to a mother through birthing...

However I am not and would never support those who are of consensual age and chose for whatever reason to become pregnant and then have an abortion, especially those who are married. I have known more than a few girls/women who have gotten themselves plastered/high and knowingly had unprotected sex, become impregnated, and had abortions with little to no remorse?one girl got knocked up by her long time boyfriend, had an abortion because he didn?t ?enjoy? the feeling of protected sex and then she went on after this to continue and have unprotected sex with this guy ended up getting pregnant again and then had yet another abortion.

Are cases like this in the minority? As of now I am sure they are, however with the changing views of American society and our current entitlement complex that is growing I can only see the ?me me me? generation abusing this ?right? even more, when they ?want their cake and to eat it too??.

I have no remorse/sympathy for those ignorant slobs who cannot bother themselves with using proper birth control methods and to punish an unborn child with a death sentence because their mother/father was a screw up IMHO is unfair?..

A question to you, what if you knew that your mother had seriously contemplated abortion upon learning of your birth? Would you be glad that she didn?t and instead chose to give you the gift of life??.personally I would rather lead a suck life than never have the chance at all.

Actually, I'm pretty glad she chose life. The key word here is 'chose'. SHE chose life, the gov't didn't choose it for her.

But anyway, you still didn't answer my question. Why? I'm sorry that you know women who chose abortion, really I am, but why can't they make their choice? I assume if you got a woman pregnant intentionally or not, you would want her to come to term. That's great. But it's still her choice. (For the time being anyway.)

The bottom line: If you have something, alive or not, growing INSIDE YOUR OWN PERSON, why should the gov't have more control over it than you?

As I said in threads before, in a supposedly free society, this is a no-brainer. In a free society, one's own choice about one's own body and everything IN it or solely dependent on it, should be held in higher regard than the gov't's 'opinion' on it.

So again I ask you, why?

Maybe your choice is to have sex or not?

 

[Mean MrMustard]

That would be the logical answer.

But women shouldn't be allowed to change their minds about their bodies or what's in it? Again this goes back to our "free society". You decide what happens to your own body, I'll decide what happens to mine.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: loki8481
see above.

and how can a Christian be pro-death penalty at all?

You cant be, vice versa either unless youre an idiot.

 

[judasmachine]

Pro War (really late term abortion, send your kid off today!)
Pro Death Penalty (let he who is without sin cast the first stone)
Pro Life (god told me that all life is precious, although i'm sure he would make an exception for soldiers, and criminals)

 

[Klixxer]

The ultimate punishment is not something i would oppose if there are clear unopposed evidence, unfortunantly that is more rare than common.

I am pro choice all the way, in every circumstance, the opposite of pro-choice is not pro-life, it is no choice and it is unacceptable in a modern society.

Only the most ignorant sociopaths will say that someting is ALWAYS wrong or ALWAYS right, there is no such thing, as ALWAYS as people and times differ, so will choices and what was wrong 50 years ago is ok today. Society changes, the judgemental assholes who need to judge to feel good about themselves will always be there, the best you can do is to ignore them.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Klixxer
The ultimate punishment is not something i would oppose if there are clear unopposed evidence, unfortunantly that is more rare than common.

I am pro choice all the way, in every circumstance, the opposite of pro-choice is not pro-life, it is no choice and it is unacceptable in a modern society.

Only the most ignorant sociopaths will say that someting is ALWAYS wrong or ALWAYS right, there is no such thing, as ALWAYS as people and times differ, so will choices and what was wrong 50 years ago is ok today. Society changes, the judgemental assholes who need to judge to feel good about themselves will always be there, the best you can do is to ignore them.

So wait, the view that there are things that are always wrong or always right is ALWAYS a wrong view?