How can we change our country?

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Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care what other people do, I'm voting 3rd party. They may never win, but we'll never see real change through the two major parties.

This country won't change until the country goes bankrupt and erupts in violence. And it'll be the change of our nightmares.

I'm throwing the same Hail Mary.

Me too. A vote for either major party candidate is just a vote for the status quo. Two sides of the same coin.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KGBMAN
One thing I would immediately change is to get mandatory civics classes in all schools.

This would take a while to bear fruit but it needs to start now.

We need to change from a country of "consumers" into a country of citizens.

Until that happens, all efforts of change will be merely temporary, stop-gap measures.

I agree with this.

Isn't civics already taught in school? It certainly was for me, and I went to public schools from K through law school. I can't be that old. Not that education can cure much if people are unwilling to learn. What's that old saying about taking horses to water?
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we agree on and how can we act on it? How do we get our will done in Congress as it is in our hearts and minds?

What do we agree on?

The number one thing for me, and I feel this should be true for most Americans but isn't, is a balanced budget. We can argue all day about tax levels and expenditures, but at the end of the day, we should at least balance the budget (except possibly in times of war and true national emergency, both of which should be rare). It's immoral and ultimately unsustainable to embrace perpetual debt, leaving a punishing burden on future generations without their participation or even consent. Right now though, we've reached a cynical bipartisan bargain, with both sides "winning" and the future losing. Repubs get to claim victory by cutting taxes, and Democrats get to claim victory by increasing spending, but in the end, we all lose.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Originally posted by: bamacre
I think you're angry because you thought Clinton brought change until Bush Jr proved you wrong.

I think this statement shows just how out of touch you are. Americans from top to bottom were not disappointed with the Clinton era, and he brought change in the sense that Americans were noticeably better off after his 8 years in office. Bush Jr. had nothing to do with proving any of the Clinton voters wrong, other than the few Clinton people who voted for Bush.

In the end, people like yourself clamor for change but often don't have the will, depth of knowledge, or experience to understand what needs to be changed, and what are just pipedreams that wouldn't actually make people better off. The poor deductive reasoning and detached connection to reality is far and away the root of the Ron Paul movement. The Paulbots don't want revolutionary change, what they want is to build another country. I say go for it, just don't expect it to come within the borders of the United States, which Ron Paul has said himself he would have let fracture 147 years ago during the Civil War.

I think you either missed my point entirely or failed to read my entire post.
 

KGB

Diamond Member
May 11, 2000
3,042
0
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KGBMAN
One thing I would immediately change is to get mandatory civics classes in all schools.

This would take a while to bear fruit but it needs to start now.

We need to change from a country of "consumers" into a country of citizens.

Until that happens, all efforts of change will be merely temporary, stop-gap measures.

I agree with this.

Isn't civics already taught in school? It certainly was for me, and I went to public schools from K through law school. I can't be that old. Not that education can cure much if people are unwilling to learn. What's that old saying about taking horses to water?

Sadly enough, modern K-12 public curriculum doesn't have much, if any civics classes at all.
Chalk it up to "No Child Left Behind" amongst others.

 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: KGBMAN
One thing I would immediately change is to get mandatory civics classes in all schools.

This would take a while to bear fruit but it needs to start now.

We need to change from a country of "consumers" into a country of citizens.

Until that happens, all efforts of change will be merely temporary, stop-gap measures.

I agree with this.

Isn't civics already taught in school? It certainly was for me, and I went to public schools from K through law school. I can't be that old. Not that education can cure much if people are unwilling to learn. What's that old saying about taking horses to water?

Sadly enough, modern K-12 public curriculum doesn't have much, if any civics classes at all.
Chalk it up to "No Child Left Behind" amongst others.

I don't know where you're getting that. I've got three kids in public schools, and they're getting civics (lumped into their history and/or social studies classes). Regardless, as noted before, you can't force people to learn.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we agree on and how can we act on it? How do we get our will done in Congress as it is in our hearts and minds?

What do we agree on?

The number one thing for me, and I feel this should be true for most Americans but isn't, is a balanced budget. We can argue all day about tax levels and expenditures, but at the end of the day, we should at least balance the budget (except possibly in times of war and true national emergency, both of which should be rare). It's immoral and ultimately unsustainable to embrace perpetual debt, leaving a punishing burden on future generations without their participation or even consent. Right now though, we've reached a cynical bipartisan bargain, with both sides "winning" and the future losing. Repubs get to claim victory by cutting taxes, and Democrats get to claim victory by increasing spending, but in the end, we all lose.

I would say that the savings rate in the US tells of a population that may say this but actually lives like the government. If we can't save how can we expect the people we elect to save. They can't afford to tell us we're going on a diet if we won't go on one willingly.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we agree on and how can we act on it? How do we get our will done in Congress as it is in our hearts and minds?

What do we agree on?

The number one thing for me, and I feel this should be true for most Americans but isn't, is a balanced budget. We can argue all day about tax levels and expenditures, but at the end of the day, we should at least balance the budget (except possibly in times of war and true national emergency, both of which should be rare). It's immoral and ultimately unsustainable to embrace perpetual debt, leaving a punishing burden on future generations without their participation or even consent. Right now though, we've reached a cynical bipartisan bargain, with both sides "winning" and the future losing. Repubs get to claim victory by cutting taxes, and Democrats get to claim victory by increasing spending, but in the end, we all lose.

I would say that the savings rate in the US tells of a population that may say this but actually lives like the government. If we can't save how can we expect the people we elect to save. They can't afford to tell us we're going on a diet if we won't go on one willingly.

Agreed, which is why we need a Constitutional mechanism to force a balanced budget - we can't just leave it up to a Congress controlled by either party. Both parties have shown they can't be trusted to balance the books. My state and lots of other states restrict the use of debt, such that when revenues don't meet projections, budget cuts have to be made; there's none of this pushing the debt off into the future. I recognize that there are times (national emergencies) when we should be able to accrue debt to save the nation, so I envision something like a 2/3 majority requirement for the gov't to spend in deficit. During emergencies, it shouldn't be hard to muster a 2/3 majority, and the rest of the time, hopefully at least 1/3 of the Congress will vote to stop debt.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Don't you think the pork of budget excess is how politicians buy the vote. Do you think they will lock up that toy in a Constitutional amendment?
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Don't you think the pork of budget excess is how politicians buy the vote. Do you think they will lock up that toy in a Constitutional amendment?

Yes, you're right, it's very unlikely. I'd have thought the new wave of Republicans who came into power in '94 might've been the most likely group to do so, but once they got one whiff of the heady aroma of power, they got corrupted at record speed.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Where there is a will there is a way, they say, so maybe it's that there is no will, that people really simply do not care. Well I guess we know that too.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Perhaps the blogisphere can organize into a living political entity that can push consensus demanded change.

A laser can burn a hole in steel. Focus is the key it seems to me. Focus that causes ignition.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we agree on?

We agree not to vote D or R. We will never agree ON anything, but I think it's quite possible that we could all agree AGAINST something. The way to break the two party system isn't to collectively vote a third party; it's to ignore the existing parties altogether.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we agree on?

We agree not to vote D or R. We will never agree ON anything, but I think it's quite possible that we could all agree AGAINST something. The way to break the two party system isn't to collectively vote a third party; it's to ignore the existing parties altogether.

I don't understand this at all. Not sure I could support a notion I don't understand.
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,728
29
86
America is rotting from within, but neither party seems to address the problem in the correct way. We have children growing up being taught to fundamentally reject the system on both sides -- gang life on the one hand, homeschooled fundamentalists/separatists on the other. Two sides of a coin. Both more similar than dissimilar. Both are signs of systemic failure and alienation.

What is the left going to do in order to make those who have become feral within our inner cities feel valued and included?

What is the right going to do in order to make those who have become feral within our rural areas feel valued and included?

Gov't checks aren't the answer. Becoming a Christianist nation isn't the answer.

I honestly don't know if there IS an answer anymore, because the typical American reaction over the last 30 years seems to be: sweep it all under the rug, and pretend there isn't any problem. Demonize anyone who dares to suggest that America has a problem.

America has a huge fucking problem, an existential problem that it avoids addressing at all costs: Are we the inclusive nation that values the janitor along with the CEO that shits in the toilet that the janitor cleans, because someone has to be the janitor regardless of whether everyone in the country has an MBA, or are we the predestionationalist nation that shuns the janitor because he could have/should have done better for himself?

Who deserves better health care: the janitor or the CEO?

Who deserves a stronger safety net/parachute?

Who deserves better education for their offspring?

Who deserves to produce offspring in the first place?

America's fundamental problem is its clinging to the predestinationalist mentality; our modern day version of it is the "winner/loser" mentality: You end up on the bottom of the economic food chain because you didn't try hard enough. I touched upon this point already. It wouldn't matter if our educational system was so robust that everyone who wanted a free Master's degree got one. You'd have people with Master's degrees scrubbing toilets, because there is only so much job market space that requires the potential of a Masters' graduate at any given time. The rest have to accept more menial tasks, but still, the economy doesn't function without menial labor.

At the same time, we can't assume that the child of a toilet scrubber will just be the next toilet scrubber. Much of America's genius has come from the "lowliest" of roots, and it's that sort of egalitarianism that is potentially our greatest asset. We truly cannot leave ANY children behind, no matter where they come from.

Racism will ultimately destroy us, as will classism. As will social Darwinism at this point in time, because we have so many people not living up to their potential, not just due to lack of education, but because of alienation and rejection of education. Not to mention incarceration, because of the rejection of the former in favor of an embrace of feral alternatives. Every person in jail in the United States today represents a drain of $19-23K of tax revenue (Source) per year, while some of these people might be serving productive roles in society, generating wealth via payment of taxes or otherwise. Such as pot smokers (who the fuck REALLY cares?).

Okay, enough. There's my rant.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Don't you think the pork of budget excess is how politicians buy the vote. Do you think they will lock up that toy in a Constitutional amendment?

Yes, you're right, it's very unlikely. I'd have thought the new wave of Republicans who came into power in '94 might've been the most likely group to do so, but once they got one whiff of the heady aroma of power, they got corrupted at record speed.

I give it 6 months before the Democrat congress and Barack "Rubber Stamp" Obama meet the same fate.
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Don't you think the pork of budget excess is how politicians buy the vote. Do you think they will lock up that toy in a Constitutional amendment?

Yes, you're right, it's very unlikely. I'd have thought the new wave of Republicans who came into power in '94 might've been the most likely group to do so, but once they got one whiff of the heady aroma of power, they got corrupted at record speed.

Yes, Power @ all costs...

Todays Republican policies benefit a small segment of the American population. Since they need a majority of votes to win, they need a large component of their party to be willing to vote against their own self-interest. So the Republican "controllers" use people like Bush & Palin to appeal to and control the Republican "sheep" so that they will not realize that they are voting against their own self-interest.

How is this accomplished? The controllers rely on manipulating the sheep's emotional responses to issues by emphasizing cultural issues and by repeating and socializing propaganda that is completely at odds with the actual policies that they are implementing. The sheep are discouraged from a deeper understanding of what is actually going on by demonizing anyone who might help the sheep see what is actually going on.

This is why the media must be demonized as the liberal media and Democrats must be demonized as elitists.

The single "issue" is pushed, such as encouraging beliefs in creationism, how the science behind climate change is wrong, pro-life and anti-gay fanaticism, and an unrealistic understanding of who terrorists are all contribute to separating the sheep from the rest of society and to enhancing the ability of the controllers to control them.

This is why otherwise intelligent Republicans are willing to defend Bush & the likes of Palin. They know that they will help control the sheep - necessary for the party to remain in power.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,570
6,712
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Don't you think the pork of budget excess is how politicians buy the vote. Do you think they will lock up that toy in a Constitutional amendment?

Yes, you're right, it's very unlikely. I'd have thought the new wave of Republicans who came into power in '94 might've been the most likely group to do so, but once they got one whiff of the heady aroma of power, they got corrupted at record speed.

I give it 6 months before the Democrat congress and Barack "Rubber Stamp" Obama meet the same fate.

If that happens then the Republicans will be right back in power. Who knows, maybe somebody with appeal will start leading the Libertarians or Ralph Nader will start looking like God.