How can Trump pardons be stopped?

[omega3]

So Trump could potentially pardon Manafort and maybe afterwards Kushner and Don Jr. Since Trump is related to both the case and those people, this is obviously conflict of interest. Also, i thought you couldn't be the judge of your own case. I think this whole pardoning power a president has is un-democratic to begin with as the executive branch (= president) can overrule the legislative branch with this which should always remain separated from each other.

Strangely enough the constitution nor any law at this point is clear about to which extend the president can use his pardon power, so what do you think when Trump starts pardoning those people will happen? Will Mueller or others go to court and than what?

And if after House impeachment, the "judges" will be the Senate (GOP controlled) and if they do nothing, can the US Supreme Court still do something to stop this pardon nonsense?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

They can’t. Next question.

 

[Greenman]

The answer seems to be that Trump can pardon anyone he chooses.
Impeachment goes nowhere if the senate refuses to take action. That's what got Bill of the hook.

 

[BurnItDwn]

The law is pretty vague, but also in some ways pretty blunt. The president cannot use the pardon power to save himself or another official from impeachment.


If Pardoning PERSON_NAME_HERE were to be linked in some way to PERSON_NAME_HERE protecting the president or any other public officials from impeachment, then, it would stand to reason that PERSON_NAME_HERE can not be pardoned.

The next President could possibly impeach PERSON_NAME_HERE maybe, though I'm not sure.

 

[omega3]

If Pardoning PERSON_NAME_HERE were to be linked in some way to PERSON_NAME_HERE protecting the president or any other public officials from impeachment, then, it would stand to reason that PERSON_NAME_HERE can not be pardoned.

It seems logic what you say, but where does the law say that the president can't pardon somebody he is related to personally or via crime connection?

 

[Maxima1]

Pardoning co-conspirators is too much like a self-pardon, so it's possible it fails. It should, but who knows with a 5-4 conservative court.

https://twitter.com/tribelaw/status/889067573752586240

Jared, Paul, etc: Trump's promises to bail you out if you commit perjury may fail: courts could well toss out pardons by a co-conspirator!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It seems logic what you say, but where does the law say that the president can't pardon somebody he is related to personally or via crime connection?

The power to pardon is absolute with the possible exception of self-pardon. There's no Constitutional protection from consequences however and so a President may pardon someone but then have obstructed justice and that would be criminal.

The Constitution wasn't designed with partisanship in mind nor that someone like Trump could ever hold office. They severely overestimated the positive qualities while not imagining the negatives of their descendants. Lesser children of greater sires.

 

[Bitek]

Well, pardons are for federal crimes, he can't pardon state charges.

Also, by accepting a pardon you are admitting guilt, so you may not want to admit guilt to federal crimes if that can be used against you for state charges.

I'm won't be easy to pop everyone out of prison as it may seem.

 

[Maxima1]

The power to pardon is absolute with the possible exception of self-pardon. There's no Constitutional protection from consequences however and so a President may pardon someone but then have obstructed justice and that would be criminal.

The Constitution wasn't designed with partisanship in mind nor that someone like Trump could ever hold office. They severely overestimated the positive qualities while not imagining the negatives of their descendants. Lesser children of greater sires.

Of course self-pardon isn't allowed. Some things just don't need to be said. If it was allowed, then the president is king and rule of law is dead. And again, pardons of co-conspirators is very similar to a self-pardon, so there are many out there who think that should be prohibited as well.

 

[Fenixgoon]

state level charges are the only surefire way, probably

 

[HomerJS]

The law is pretty vague, but also in some ways pretty blunt. The president cannot use the pardon power to save himself or another official from impeachment.


If Pardoning PERSON_NAME_HERE were to be linked in some way to PERSON_NAME_HERE protecting the president or any other public officials from impeachment, then, it would stand to reason that PERSON_NAME_HERE can not be pardoned.

The next President could possibly impeach PERSON_NAME_HERE maybe, though I'm not sure.

What you described is obstruction of justice. Check out the Nixon articles

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Of course self-pardon isn't allowed

There's never been a ruling on it and the founders never imagined a people so idiotic to allow a despot to take office. It would be like saying "Don't elect a mass-murdering cannibal". Our collective stupidity wasn't fully accounted for and so the SCOTUS may need to weigh in. Hopefully, it won't be an issue but "of course" doesn't apply until a situation actualizes.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What you described is obstruction of justice. Check out the Nixon articles

Yep. That describes what happens after the questionable pardon.

 

[woolfe9998]

I explained in another thread how Trump could be guilty of obstructing justice with a Manafort pardon. Because the criminal act isn't the pardon at all. It's if he made a deal with Manafort before a pardon to offer the pardon in exchange for him refusing to cooperate with Mueller. That is a conspiracy to obstruct justice, and actual obstruction - the moment Manafort lies to Mueller or refuses to cooperate. This act of obstruction occurs before a pardon is even issued and, indeed, would still be a crime even if Trump ultimately reneged and did not issue the pardon at all. Therefore, Trump would have no constitutional protection.

This reasoning doesn't necessarily apply to other pardons he may issue, however.

 

[Maxima1]

There's never been a ruling on it and the founders never imagined a people so idiotic to allow a despot to take office. It would be like saying "Don't elect a mass-murdering cannibal". Our collective stupidity wasn't fully accounted for and so the SCOTUS may need to weigh in. Hopefully, it won't be an issue but "of course" doesn't apply until a situation actualizes.

There's no reason for anyone on the SC to go along with that crap.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/self-pardons-president-cant-pardon-himself-so-why-do-people-think-he-can

 

[shortylickens]

I still wanna know if a president can pardon himself.
Have not received a straight answer on that.

 

[Moonbeam]

As I see it, the only thing that can stop Trump is Republican Senate fear they will not be re-elected if they do not impeach Trump is he tries to pardon Manaford. It all depends on whether Red states continue to move toward dictatorship, in my opinion. I believe, also, that Senate fear is real. How real remains to be seen.

 

[Moonbeam]

I still wanna know if a president can pardon himself.
Have not received a straight answer on that.

Pence can.

 

[Thebobo]

Get trump out of office
Get charges prosecuted from states
Remind trump related pardons concerning him can be Obstruction Of Justice

 

[Jhhnn]

I still wanna know if a president can pardon himself.
Have not received a straight answer on that.

I doubt it would stand up. There are deeper principles to the law than even the Constitution, this being one of them-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_iudex_in_causa_sua

Win or lose in 2020, Trump can pardon anybody else he wants after the election with impunity. Should he lose, he flips off the world. Should he win, we'll be down the shitter anyway.

A sure way to stop him from pardons is to spring the 25th amendment on him, then have both houses back it up with 2/3 majorities. Dream On, right?

 

[sandorski]

Time machine, change laws in the past.

 

[Maxima1]

Win or lose in 2020, Trump can pardon anybody else he wants after the election with impunity

Not 100% guaranteed. Pardoning co-conspirators could definitely be shot down. Laurence Tribe thinks it's a possibility.

 

[Viper1j]

So Trump could potentially pardon Manafort and maybe afterwards Kushner and Don Jr. Since Trump is related to both the case and those people, this is obviously conflict of interest. Also, i thought you couldn't be the judge of your own case. I think this whole pardoning power a president has is un-democratic to begin with as the executive branch (= president) can overrule the legislative branch with this which should always remain separated from each other.

Strangely enough the constitution nor any law at this point is clear about to which extend the president can use his pardon power, so what do you think when Trump starts pardoning those people will happen? Will Mueller or others go to court and than what?

And if after House impeachment, the "judges" will be the Senate (GOP controlled) and if they do nothing, can the US Supreme Court still do something to stop this pardon nonsense?

He's far too self-absorbed to do that. If he engaged in such an egregious and obvious abuse of power, I believe that the DOJ would ignore its guidelines, (because that's all they really are.) And indict him on obstruction of justice charges. The indictment would probably travel all the way to the Supreme Court, where they would have to make the final call as to whether or not a sitting president can be charged with a crime.

But he thinks he wants what every first-term president wants, a second term. And him going pardon crazy would almost surely torpedo any hope of that.

 

[tweaker2]

Serving the country is the very absolute last thing that Trump, his close "advisers" (that always gets mentioned in the news yet to this day still remain nameless) and his children have any intention of doing. The Trump clan is solidly fixated on serving themselves first and foremost at the expense of the nation that hired them to run it. They're in it to make money any way they can like they've always been programmed to do their entire lives. Putin and the Saudi's are sources for bail out cash and further expansion of the Trump empire and the Trump clan is using the office that Trump holds as an high value expendable asset to use as they see fit.

Start with that premise as the basis for why things are the way they are and then apply that to how pardons are going to be exploited by Big Daddy Don.

Trump is of course going to use his pardoning power to save himself and his family from being incarcerated. He has absolutely no reason whatsoever to save those associates of his who are now in legal jeopardy without directly benefiting himself and secondarily, his kids. They are all expendable if the Trumps can swing that without blow back.

I'm thinking the last thing on Donny's mind is what's legal or not in the way of pardons. He thinks he can squirrel his way into corrupting the legislative and judicial branches enough to make them get his ass out of the mess he put himself in, just like he uses his personal lawyers to sue his way out of trouble.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not 100% guaranteed. Pardoning co-conspirators could definitely be shot down. Laurence Tribe thinks it's a possibility.

While I have a great deal of respect for Tribe the language of the Constitution is such that the SCOTUS would have to bend over backwards to rescind presidential pardons-

The President...shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

There are no qualifiers on that other than the power of Congress to remove him from office.