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How can one subscribe to a religion that dooms non-beleivers to hell ?

P

polm

Diamond Member
Growing up Jewish, my view may be a bit biased.

but, I always understood both Islam and Christianity to be faiths that doomed all non-beleivers to hell.

whereas in Judaism, people of all faiths go to heaven.

How does one subscribe to a faith that dooms so many in this world to eternal damnation ?
 
Catholic dogma doesn't condemn infidels to hell, necessarily. Limbo is for the righteous pagan(and other monotheistic) souls, along with unbaptised children. While they can't go to heaven(because they have not eaten the body and blood of Christ), their existance is less miserable than the souls in hell. Non-catholic protestants in general cannot go to heaven unless they are one of the denominations that believes in transsubstantiation, the transformation of the bread and the wine into the body and blood of Christ.

According to Roman Catholic dogma, atleast while John Paul II reigned, nobody is condemned to hell because of their beliefs. They just can't go to heaven.

One other tiny smidgen is that while JPII reigned, he held the view that Jews could go to heaven due to a previous contract with Abraham. They were, in fact, the chosen people for a while.

The new pope, Benedict, though, seems to be less inclined to allow the Jews into heaven. He retracted JPII's statement that the Jews were 'righteous' brothers of Christians.
 
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Easy
Click to expand...

From above:

Clothing is perhaps the most important thing about being a Christian. If one is not properly clothed and fully representative of what God would want them to appear like.. well then, that person is probably not saved. Our motto is "get saved, get to a Christian Clothing store, and get fitted for the kingdom." Anyone who does not conform to the dress code at Landover Baptist will be fined no less than $300.00 a violation.
Click to expand...

WTH?
 
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Easy
Click to expand...

From above:

Clothing is perhaps the most important thing about being a Christian. If one is not properly clothed and fully representative of what God would want them to appear like.. well then, that person is probably not saved. Our motto is "get saved, get to a Christian Clothing store, and get fitted for the kingdom." Anyone who does not conform to the dress code at Landover Baptist will be fined no less than $300.00 a violation.
Click to expand...

WTH?
Click to expand...

It's a joke site. Exhibit 1 note, may offend
 
So orthodox Jews believe Arafat went to heaven? Not a troll, but that is genuinely new to me. They are people of "faith" but that faith encompasses something I see as incompatible. If you believe that the Jews need to be exterminated as part of your religious faith, then the Jews believe those people should be rewarded?

Could you elaborate?
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So orthodox Jews believe Arafat went to heaven? Not a troll, but that is genuinely new to me. They are people of "faith" but that faith encompasses something I see as incompatible. If you believe that the Jews need to be exterminated as part of your religious faith, then the Jews believe those people should be rewarded?

Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...

i think simply having a "faith" doesn't do the trick - a jew who is a bad person wouldn't go to heaven either under jewish beliefs (from what I can gather).
 
Originally posted by: Tommunist
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So orthodox Jews believe Arafat went to heaven? Not a troll, but that is genuinely new to me. They are people of "faith" but that faith encompasses something I see as incompatible. If you believe that the Jews need to be exterminated as part of your religious faith, then the Jews believe those people should be rewarded?

Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...

i think simply having a "faith" doesn't do the trick - a jew who is a bad person wouldn't go to heaven either under jewish beliefs (from what I can gather).
Click to expand...

I can buy that much, but look at the Shema

I think this is where the Christian concept comes from. When it gets to the Trinity, Christians believe in a complex God who can exist in simultaneous states. I think it would be somewhat like the concept of Avatars. Different forms, but the same being. The tricky part is that the forms can exist in the same time frame.
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So orthodox Jews believe Arafat went to heaven? Not a troll, but that is genuinely new to me. They are people of "faith" but that faith encompasses something I see as incompatible. If you believe that the Jews need to be exterminated as part of your religious faith, then the Jews believe those people should be rewarded?

Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...


One thing that is important to mention is that the Torah (both Written and Oral) do not delve deeply into the concepts of Heaven or Hell.

That being said...I was always taught that every man/woman would be held accountable at the end of their life on Earth, for the sins and good deeds they performed.

Based on that balance of good and evil deeds a person may end up in a place of punishment. This, as I understood it, was not contingent upon being Jewish. In-fact, I always learned that Jews were held to a much higher standard than those of other faiths, and thus were more likely to end up in this kind of Hell.

Also, I always learned that Hell (or Gehhenom (sp?)) was not at all eternal. It is a place where one may end up only long enough to learn the err of their ways, and then would be hurried off to heaven as soon as possible.

So basically Judaism beleives that eventually ALL of man will make it to Heaven.

Oh, and speaking to your Arafat comment; It would be wrong of any Jew, or Man, to try and claim to know where G-D would send someone, becasue we beleive G-D is the only true Judge and that our feeble minds could not even begin to grasp how he makes that decision. Yes we beleive Arafat will go to heaven...eventually. When and How, is up to G-D .
 
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Easy
Click to expand...

From above:

Clothing is perhaps the most important thing about being a Christian. If one is not properly clothed and fully representative of what God would want them to appear like.. well then, that person is probably not saved. Our motto is "get saved, get to a Christian Clothing store, and get fitted for the kingdom." Anyone who does not conform to the dress code at Landover Baptist will be fined no less than $300.00 a violation.
Click to expand...

WTH?
Click to expand...

And then they put an ad banner on the bottom of the page for a "What would Jesus do?" thong? I $hit you not! Go back and look!

[Edit] Oh, I get it. . .satire.
 
Originally posted by: polm
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So orthodox Jews believe Arafat went to heaven? Not a troll, but that is genuinely new to me. They are people of "faith" but that faith encompasses something I see as incompatible. If you believe that the Jews need to be exterminated as part of your religious faith, then the Jews believe those people should be rewarded?

Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...


One thing that is important to mention is that the Torah (both Written and Oral) do not delve deeply into the concepts of Heaven or Hell.

That being said...I was always taught that every man/woman would be held accountable at the end of their life on Earth, for the sins and good deeds they performed.

Based on that balance of good and evil deeds a person may end up in a place of punishment. This, as I understood it, was not contingent upon being Jewish. In-fact, I always learned that Jews were held to a much higher standard than those of other faiths, and thus were more likely to end up in this kind of Hell.

Also, I always learned that Hell (or Gehhenom (sp?)) was not at all eternal. It is a place where one may end up only long enough to learn the err of their ways, and then would be hurried off to heaven as soon as possible.

So basically Judaism beleives that eventually ALL of man will make it to Heaven.
Click to expand...

To repeat, I'm not trolling here, I just want to understand the Jewish faith as you see it.

Good and evil has always been somewhat troubling. I see it as an act (or a lack of an act e.g. you refuse to help someone in genuine need when it is fully within your power to do so) coupled with intent.

To illustrate:
Someone breaks into your home, and kills a family member. You in turn kill him which prevents him from killing the rest of them. Not two intentional killings have happened, and most everyone would agree that what you did was justified.

That's cut and dried, however who (assuming you have a religious perspective) is the objective arbiter of right and wrong? Which version of God?


To the point.
A devout Muslim (defined as one who practices the faith to the best he knows how) straps on a bomb, blows up a bus of Israeli school children and winds up before God.

Those who find the act abhorrent (and I fall into this category) would see the person as unworthy to enter paradise (which granted may not exist if heaven is a sort of terminal where people both come AND go).

On the other hand the bomber clearly sees himself as an agent of God, and stands before him expecting a reward for doing the best he could as HE understands it.

From one perspective the bomber committed cold blooded murder. From another it was the most selfless act possible. A personal sacrifice to attack the enemies of his True Faith, warranting not only entrance to the Pearly Gates, but fame beyond others for all eternity.


What does God say to him?

It seems to me that at some point God would say "Enough"

 
Ahh, I see your edit, which explains some of what I just posted.

So this is a universally held belief by all Jewish sects. Thanks for explaining 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: polm
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
So orthodox Jews believe Arafat went to heaven? Not a troll, but that is genuinely new to me. They are people of "faith" but that faith encompasses something I see as incompatible. If you believe that the Jews need to be exterminated as part of your religious faith, then the Jews believe those people should be rewarded?

Could you elaborate?
Click to expand...


One thing that is important to mention is that the Torah (both Written and Oral) do not delve deeply into the concepts of Heaven or Hell.

That being said...I was always taught that every man/woman would be held accountable at the end of their life on Earth, for the sins and good deeds they performed.

Based on that balance of good and evil deeds a person may end up in a place of punishment. This, as I understood it, was not contingent upon being Jewish. In-fact, I always learned that Jews were held to a much higher standard than those of other faiths, and thus were more likely to end up in this kind of Hell.

Also, I always learned that Hell (or Gehhenom (sp?)) was not at all eternal. It is a place where one may end up only long enough to learn the err of their ways, and then would be hurried off to heaven as soon as possible.

So basically Judaism beleives that eventually ALL of man will make it to Heaven.
Click to expand...

To repeat, I'm not trolling here, I just want to understand the Jewish faith as you see it.

Good and evil has always been somewhat troubling. I see it as an act (or a lack of an act e.g. you refuse to help someone in genuine need when it is fully within your power to do so) coupled with intent.

To illustrate:
Someone breaks into your home, and kills a family member. You in turn kill him which prevents him from killing the rest of them. Not two intentional killings have happened, and most everyone would agree that what you did was justified.

That's cut and dried, however who (assuming you have a religious perspective) is the objective arbiter of right and wrong? Which version of God?


To the point.
A devout Muslim (defined as one who practices the faith to the best he knows how) straps on a bomb, blows up a bus of Israeli school children and winds up before God.

Those who find the act abhorrent (and I fall into this category) would see the person as unworthy to enter paradise (which granted may not exist if heaven is a sort of terminal where people both come AND go).

On the other hand the bomber clearly sees himself as an agent of God, and stands before him expecting a reward for doing the best he could as HE understands it.

From one perspective the bomber committed cold blooded murder. From another it was the most selfless act possible. A personal sacrifice to attack the enemies of his True Faith, warranting not only entrance to the Pearly Gates, but fame beyond others for all eternity.


What does God say to him?

It seems to me that at some point God would say "Enough"
Click to expand...


You make a wonderful point. I have asked this question many times.

To be honest, I'm not 100% sure of the Judaic answer. For a Jew, good deeds seem to be the same as Commandments, or Obligations, (called Mitzvot) . There are 613 commandments. Some are positive (i.e. Do this), and some are negative (i.e. Don't do this) . Sins (called Avairot) , I think, are any act that violates a Mitzvah.

For non-Jews, there are only 7 obligations (the Noahide laws) that are commanded, and are similar to the 10 Commandements we all know.

I'm no Torah scholar, and I wish someone with more knowledge would chime in. But I do recognize that Judaism puts a framework around what is Good and what is Evil.

My point is that, in Judaism, even if someone commits more Evil than Good (based on the Jewish framework) they will still, eventually, go on to the World-to-Come (i.e. Heaven) .

That being said....

I beleive that G-D interperets intention. I know that may not be correct in Judaism, but it is that way I beleive. Thus, IMHO, if a person truly beleives they are doing the right thing, then that person is indeed doing "right" in G-D's eyes.
 
I think polm that I have a better understanding of where you are coming from perhaps I can give you an answer to your post, at least my POV.

A little true story first:

I know a woman who teaches at a small Christian college. She has flown to Romania to do a kind of mission trip.

There are Christians there who need help as does almost everyone else. So what she did is fly there at her own expense (and she isn't wealthy by any means) for two weeks, and brings everything she can think of, mostly medical supplies. They will take just about anything.

She and the others there distribute it to the local hospitals and physicians, and works with others to fix houses, churches etc. She pretty much goes at it non stop. Being Christian, she believes in what is known as "The Great Commission", which is teaching about Jesus as she understands it. She believes Jesus is the Messiah, and that belief is mandatory, because that is what is in the Bible. That's why she tells others about what she believes, and supports those of her faith because it is part of her purpose in life. She presents opportunity, and others take it or leave it as they see fit.

She in no way denies aid to those who are not believers though. She helps the physicians to help others independent of belief or not. She doesn't beat them over the head with a Bible while she does so because that's the wrong time and place. Right then, she comforts and aids them physically. If they ask her why she does it, then she tells them about what has happened in her life and what is important to her, and one those is that person right in front of her.

She believes in a Heaven and Hell. She believes Salvation through Christ is needed to enter, but she in no way enjoys the fact that the gate is so narrow. That's not her call though. It is Gods, as she understands him to be. She doesn't know about people who haven't heard what she believes they need to, but she accepts that there are things she doesn't know.

Obviously I respect this woman. She takes time out of her life to help others because she feels she is called to do so. Why matters little to me. She actively does good. She does this every year, and she makes them to two other countries throughout the year. Six weeks out of her life in sometimes dangerous conditions with the idea of helping others spiritually if she can, but aiding in any way possible. This time doesnt include the phone calls to local docs and hospitals and NGOs and Uncle Sam, the knocking on doors, planning etc. All done at her personal expense.

Why does she subscribe to that religion? Because she feels she must. She does what she can to help. She puts faith into beneficial action. She's not the only one I know. Exceptional? Perhaps, but she does so because she believes in a common good, that love is not an emotion so much as a willfull act.

I find it really hard to fault her beliefs.
 
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Easy
Click to expand...

From above:

Clothing is perhaps the most important thing about being a Christian. If one is not properly clothed and fully representative of what God would want them to appear like.. well then, that person is probably not saved. Our motto is "get saved, get to a Christian Clothing store, and get fitted for the kingdom." Anyone who does not conform to the dress code at Landover Baptist will be fined no less than $300.00 a violation.
Click to expand...

WTH?
Click to expand...

It's a joke site. Exhibit 1 note, may offend
Click to expand...

thanks; I didn't look too long at the site, for obvious reasons.
 
Originally posted by: polm

Also, I always learned that Hell (or Gehhenom (sp?)) was not at all eternal. It is a place where one may end up only long enough to learn the err of their ways, and then would be hurried off to heaven as soon as possible.
Click to expand...


So Hitler will eventually go to Heaven? If so wouldn't that be the most beautiful example of a loving and forgiving god? I wish more Christians believed that (some do I promise).

 

I wonder about the Christians who believe in The Rapture.

Did they ever stop to wonder exactly what it is that they are worshipping or believing in? I mean, if someone said, "I am going to commit mass torture and mass murder against people who do not believe in something", you would refer to such a person as a monster, such as Hitler or Stalin. But isn't that what The Rapture is all about? The God-being murders billions of non-believers and then has them tortured for all eternity in Hell merely because they had a different belief system? It's not like the victims were murdering or stealing from other people, just not worshipping the diety. In other words, aren't those people who believe in The Rapture basically believing in a religious version of Nazism and worshipping a God that would, in actuality, be a horrific monster?



 
i will reject any faith that condemns all the dirty savages that lived on this continent for millenia and never heard a word of this 'god' to hell. i've heard the age of accountability theory, but that's just a theory. i've also heard that all my forefathers from 3 generations ago and back are all in hell. how the fvck is that supposed to make me want to join up?
 
Originally posted by: judasmachine
i will reject any faith that condemns all the dirty savages that lived on this continent for millenia and never heard a word of this 'god' to hell. i've heard the age of accountability theory, but that's just a theory. i've also heard that all my forefathers from 3 generations ago and back are all in hell. how the fvck is that supposed to make me want to join up?
Click to expand...

If you are talking about natives in the Americas during the time of European Imperialism, then you are incorrect. Catholic countries such as Spain and France actually sent missionaries to save the natives. Secondly, if someone dies without ever hearing of the Gospel, they aren't necessarily condemned to hell. They are judged on their merits as a person and they earn a spot in purgatory which is not a inherently negative place. I'd imagine that it would be like life on earth. They do not have the chance to go to heaven though.

This was the Church's dogma during the time of the Spanish conquistadors. Protestant teaching may be a bit more severe concerning the pagans. But that really doesn't matter because no protestant has the power to condemn one to hell.

In response to Polm: while Judaeic dogma may speak of hell as a form of temporary penance, they Catholic church teaches that Hell is eternal, Purgatory is the state of temporary penance for Christians. Souls that must remain in purgatory forever(either because they are pagans, or Judao-Christians who have not partaken in Catholic/Anglican/Orthodox etc. communion
 
I thought according to some Jewish sects that you can not go to heaven but you just died and that was it. What school of thought are those teachings from? With no redeemer, how is the law of sacrafice suppose to be fullfilled and how will your sins be forgiven?
 
Well we are all in hell and there IS a way out. It's just that it's not any of the only ways people claim. To get out requires good luck or a teacher who himself is free. That is why Jesus said I am the Way. He was the way for his time and place and HE was HIS CONSCIOUSNESS not his historical ego. Consciousness, wherever it breaks the bounds of duality and becomes THE ONE IN THE ETERNAL PRESENT is the same wherever it occurs. To be God Conscious is to be One With God.

The rest of us are of course in hell in that we experience ourselves as separate when in fact there is no separation. We are in heaven; we just don't know it, and of course that makes us so mad we want to kill.
 
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