How can evolution be responsible for a universe of complexity?

[Arkitech]

From time to time I read some of the threads here on evolution and in those numerous posts I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to how complex life can evolve from simple life. What disturbs me even more about evolutionary theory is that there is no concrete evidence of life currently evolving that can be studied or used as a reference. I've mentioned this before in previous discussions and the common answer is that it takes millions of years for changes to take place. But this always bugged me because if it takes that amount of time to evolve or adapt to an environment then life would perish before it had a chance to acclimate to its current surroundings.

Another interesting thought is how tightly integrated the planet and its occupants are. Think about the animal and plant relationship. Plants give off life sustaining oxygen, they provide food, nutrients and vitamins which help sustain the animal life. In turn animals breathe out carbon dioxide which the plants need, animal waste also nourishes the soil which plants use for survival. It's hard to believe that this complex relationship came into existence by chance or evolution. There are probably thousands or even millions of similar relationships of this type that exist that scientists and researchers are not even aware of, how can evolution explain these things? Did all life on Earth evolve at the same time? Did all current mammals living today evolve from the same source? What about insects, reptiles, trees, bacteria, etc..? There is a staggering amount of unique life forms on the Earth, did they all come into existence by sheer chance?

I'm not creating this post for the intent of flaming anyone's personal beliefs, but I enjoy discussions of all type and that's what I'm looking for now. Just an intelligent discussion on what you've learned and what you believe.

 

[bsobel]

Changes take place constantly, we see genetic mutation all the time. It can take a very long time for those changes to substantially modify something so we recognize it as distinct from its line.

 

[ShawnD1]

God also created the new york stock exchange. What a crazy design lulz.

 

[Mo0o]

Too much to answer in one post. But there have been evolutionary studies out there, just not the fish-->monkeys kind people keep harping about. Read a legit book on evolution and you'll learn a lot.

Check out a Dawkins book. For all his rabbling about religion, he's a very knowledgeble evolutionary biologist and his writing is pretty accessible to most people

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

The problem is that we're looking at the world after billions of years of evolution and change. Many plants and animals did die out because they couldn't adapt to their surroundings quickly enough. There have been many great extinctions. I've always thought of macroevolution as a series of microevolutions. If you look at plant breeding, the genetic traits and quirks come out in different generations, and new traits can be formed. It just happens over such a long time that we don't really see it.

 

[Crusty]

Can you come up with something better then evolution?!

 

[nakedfrog]

"This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' " - Douglas Adams

Also, read this

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
From time to time I read some of the threads here on evolution and in those numerous posts I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to how complex life can evolve from simple life. What disturbs me even more about evolutionary theory is that there is no concrete evidence of life currently evolving that can be studied or used as a reference. I've mentioned this before in previous discussions and the common answer is that it takes millions of years for changes to take place. But this always bugged me because if it takes that amount of time to evolve or adapt to an environment then life would perish before it had a chance to acclimate to its current surroundings.

Another interesting thought is how tightly integrated the planet and its occupants are. Think about the animal and plant relationship. Plants give off life sustaining oxygen, they provide food, nutrients and vitamins which help sustain the animal life. In turn animals breathe out carbon dioxide which the plants need, animal waste also nourishes the soil which plants use for survival. It's hard to believe that this complex relationship came into existence by chance or evolution. There are probably thousands or even millions of similar relationships of this type that exist that scientists and researchers are not even aware of, how can evolution explain these things? Did all life on Earth evolve at the same time? Did all current mammals living today evolve from the same source? What about insects, reptiles, trees, bacteria, etc..? There is a staggering amount of unique life forms on the Earth, did they all come into existence by sheer chance?

I'm not creating this post for the intent of flaming anyone's personal beliefs, but I enjoy discussions of all type and that's what I'm looking for now. Just an intelligent discussion on what you've learned and what you believe.

First, read this.

Given that simple adaptation for an organism to suddenly be able to process a new food source, I could extrapolate an entire complex ecosystem.

 

[oznerol]

Evolution did not create the relationships - the relationships are what keeps species alive.

 

[HumblePie]

Uhh, check out the deal on Finches in the Pacific Islands. I think it was those types of birds.

Anyhow, at one point these birds were never on the Pacific tropical islands. They couldn't fly far enough from the major land sources. However, it is believed that several explorer's such as Cook brought a few of the birds to the islands as pets that got away. Now there are something like 32 distinct species of Finches on those islands in a few hundred years.

Random mutations pop up constantly. Most are minor with some being MAJOR. Sometimes they work and most of the time they don't. That's evolution. This even happens among humans. Take a look at the "right hand" phenomena. It hasn't been until recent centuries that the majority of humans has become right hand dominate. For a long time humans were ambidextrous completely.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: bsobel
Changes take place constantly, we see genetic mutation all the time. It can take a very long time for those changes to substantially modify something so we recognize it as distinct from its line.

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante
The problem is that we're looking at the world after billions of years of evolution and change. Many plants and animals did die out because they couldn't adapt to their surroundings quickly enough. There have been many great extinctions. I've always thought of macroevolution as a series of microevolutions. If you look at plant breeding, the genetic traits and quirks come out in different generations, and new traits can be formed. It just happens over such a long time that we don't really see it.

The problem I have with that line of thought is that if it takes a substantial amount of time for a lifeform to change or adapt then the source of what is forcing the change will have eradicated the lifeform that needs to evolve.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: HumblePie
Uhh, check out the deal on Finches in the Pacific Islands. I think it was those types of birds.

Anyhow, at one point these birds were never on the Pacific tropical islands. They couldn't fly far enough from the major land sources. However, it is believed that several explorer's such as Cook brought a few of the birds to the islands as pets that got away. Now there are something like 32 distinct species of Finches on those islands in a few hundred years.

Random mutations pop up constantly. Most are minor with some being MAJOR. Sometimes they work and most of the time they don't. That's evolution. This even happens among humans. Take a look at the "right hand" phenomena. It hasn't been until recent centuries that the majority of humans has become right hand dominate. For a long time humans were ambidextrous completely.

/waits for the "MACRO-evolution" not "MICRO-evolution" horse carcass to be dragged out

 

[GeneValgene]

some biologists espouse this theory: punctuated equilibrium

it helps explain away the lack of gradual changes that are found in the fossil record.

 

[antyler]

Just think of something like the human eye ball.!!! does it really seem like something like that, that complex with that many layers and different working parts can really be an accident, or part of a genetic mutation? really?

 

[Skunkwourk]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: bsobel
Changes take place constantly, we see genetic mutation all the time. It can take a very long time for those changes to substantially modify something so we recognize it as distinct from its line.

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante
The problem is that we're looking at the world after billions of years of evolution and change. Many plants and animals did die out because they couldn't adapt to their surroundings quickly enough. There have been many great extinctions. I've always thought of macroevolution as a series of microevolutions. If you look at plant breeding, the genetic traits and quirks come out in different generations, and new traits can be formed. It just happens over such a long time that we don't really see it.

The problem I have with that line of thought is that if it takes a substantial amount of time for a lifeform to change or adapt then the source of what is forcing the change will have eradicated the lifeform that needs to evolve.

not EVERY member of a species will adapt.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: HumblePie
Uhh, check out the deal on Finches in the Pacific Islands. I think it was those types of birds.

Anyhow, at one point these birds were never on the Pacific tropical islands. They couldn't fly far enough from the major land sources. However, it is believed that several explorer's such as Cook brought a few of the birds to the islands as pets that got away. Now there are something like 32 distinct species of Finches on those islands in a few hundred years.

Random mutations pop up constantly. Most are minor with some being MAJOR. Sometimes they work and most of the time they don't. That's evolution. This even happens among humans. Take a look at the "right hand" phenomena. It hasn't been until recent centuries that the majority of humans has become right hand dominate. For a long time humans were ambidextrous completely.

I don't have a problem with the science of adaptation which can result in different variations of a species. But my gripe is with the thought of species evolving into a completely different type. In your example above the finches remained finches they did'nt become eagle or pelican like, they still were recognized as finches.

 

[KeithTalent]

I'm not pro or anti-religion, but to me evolutionary theory seems much more plausible than one omnipotent being creating every little detail of the world.

KT

 

[Chiropteran]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Think about the animal and plant relationship. Plants give off life sustaining oxygen, they provide food, nutrients and vitamins which help sustain the animal life. In turn animals breathe out carbon dioxide which the plants need, animal waste also nourishes the soil which plants use for survival. It's hard to believe that this complex relationship came into existence by chance or evolution.

It seems like you have a serious misconception about evolution. What you wrote is *perfectly* explained.

It's like this-

- Earth stats out very rich in carbon dioxide.

- Life begins which feeds on carbon dioxide (plants). Probably some life begins that feeds on other substances, but because those substances are not plentiful enough it dies out.

-Lot of time passes, during which the initial plants are producing oxygen.

-Life evolves to make use of other gasses, including oxygen. The life that evolves to use less plentiful gasses all die out because there isn't enough, but the life that uses oxygen flourishes because there is a large amount of oxygen in the air due to plants.



So no. It's not by "chance" that we use oxygen, the reason we use oxygen is that if we used any other gas we would have died off billions of years ago because there wasn't enough of it.

 

[Pastore]

Originally posted by: HumblePie
Uhh, check out the deal on Finches in the Pacific Islands. I think it was those types of birds.

Anyhow, at one point these birds were never on the Pacific tropical islands. They couldn't fly far enough from the major land sources. However, it is believed that several explorer's such as Cook brought a few of the birds to the islands as pets that got away. Now there are something like 32 distinct species of Finches on those islands in a few hundred years.

Random mutations pop up constantly. Most are minor with some being MAJOR. Sometimes they work and most of the time they don't. That's evolution. This even happens among humans. Take a look at the "right hand" phenomena. It hasn't been until recent centuries that the majority of humans has become right hand dominate. For a long time humans were ambidextrous completely.

Freaky... Does that mean we're going to start growing a giant claw out of our right hand?

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: ducci
Evolution did not create the relationships - the relationships are what keeps species alive.

I'm not sure I follow you. If relationships are what keep species alive, how was survival possible before these releationships were established.

 

[Wheezer]

shit happens.....sometimes it comes together perfectly like a Reese's peanut butter cup other times you get something like the platypus....it's a crap shoot.....after a few billion years of development....nature has probably got most of the kinks worked out, accept it and move on....

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

That's what I'm saying too. Many life forms do die out because they can't adapt quickly enough. The ones that survived were already somewhat suited for their environment, and the mutation only helps them. It depends on the change in the environment too. If you throw a new predator into an ecosystem, it will fuck up everything. But if you just put in a little fungi that produces a yet-unknown substance, with time other organisms could use that substance to better themselves.

Like HumblePie said, the Finches on the islands all evolved for their own little ecosystems. Some have longer beaks to get into deep nooks and crannies, others have more/less colorful feathers to blend in, others are really small and can just pick food off other animals.

 

[randay]

it was that dood from that book... whats his name... ? al gore!

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Chiropteran

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Think about the animal and plant relationship. Plants give off life sustaining oxygen, they provide food, nutrients and vitamins which help sustain the animal life. In turn animals breathe out carbon dioxide which the plants need, animal waste also nourishes the soil which plants use for survival. It's hard to believe that this complex relationship came into existence by chance or evolution.

It seems like you have a serious misconception about evolution. What you wrote is *perfectly* explained.

It's like this-

- Earth stats out very rich in carbon dioxide.

- Life begins which feeds on carbon dioxide (plants). Probably some life begins that feeds on other substances, but because those substances are not plentiful enough it dies out.

-Lot of time passes, during which the initial plants are producing oxygen.

-Life evolves to make use of other gasses, including oxygen. The life that evolves to use less plentiful gasses all die out because there isn't enough, but the life that uses oxygen flourishes because there is a large amount of oxygen in the air due to plants.



So no. It's not by "chance" that we use oxygen, the reason we use oxygen is that if we used any other gas we would have died off billions of years ago because there wasn't enough of it.

I admit I'm not an expert in evolution so I don't know the different theories and terminologies that are used. However I do have a grasp of the concept. But getting to your example what is the explanation for life beginning that feeds on carbon dioxide or any other substance? And if that is how life really started on this planet should'nt we see countless other examples on other planets? I would imagine that there are planets, systems and galaxies that are likely older than the Earth. So should'nt there have been a similar pattern in the evolution of life in other locations? All these questions basically lead up to the one, what makes Earth so special that it was able to create life that evolved to what it is today?

 

[So]

Evolution is a fact, we HAVE observed it in the wild and natural selection is the well supported mechanism that we think drives evolution. Your opinion that "I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to how complex life can evolve from simple life." is because you're speaking from <20 years of experience in observing the natural world -- and that is a very limited perspective. Considering billions of years of life, speciation really is a no brainier, and has been confirmed thoroughly through genetic analysis. I don't see you protesting the big bang or the age of the earth -- but those have not been directly observed either. Nor has electromagnetic radiation, but nobody doubts that. We have mountains of indirect evidence and good reason to think these things are correct, so we accept them as fact.