How bottlenecked will this be?

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AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
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so what? do you want AA and 30 fps or the opportunity to get much more than that with a competent cpu? the cpu has already brought the game down significantly. with a better cpu he can actually then utilize a 5850 and crank up as many settings as he wants. the POINT is that with a video card twice as fast as mine and an even slower cpu then that would be even more performance wasted.



EDIT: well here you go I ran some numbers in Batman with 4x AA.

1920x1080 all very high settings, 4x AA and high physx



E8500 at 2.0 GTX260 at 576/1188/1990

Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
1786, 63457, 18, 34, 29.035


E8500 at 2.0 GTX260 at 666/1392/2200
Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
2086, 67780, 18, 36, 30.476


E8500 at 3.16 GTX260 at 666/1392/2200
Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
2286, 65699, 27, 43, 34.795

this is not even a very cpu intensive game still makes more sense to have a decent cpu when you look at the minimums. again my cpu at 2.0 is faster than his 5600 X2 and a 5850 would be twice as fast as my 192sp gtx260. it is foolish to run a card like a $300 5850 with a cpu like a 5600 X2.

Or it could be that your hard drive was hiccuping when you used fraps to record those results. We have shit like this in review sites all the time.

Those numbers don't make sense either. Look at the peak and minimum. It doesn't add up.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,628
158
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it is foolish to run a card like a $300 5850 with a cpu like a 5600 X2.

The best argument would be "with the $300 (actually $350) from that 5850 you can buy 4890 and a Phenom II X4".

That would deal the most improvement for the amount of money spent.

Your example is flawed though - because your GTX 260 at both those speeds is significantly faster than the OP 8800GT.

You need to both test a E8500@2.0 with a 8800 GT and then upgrade that to a GTX260, and then test a E8500@3.6 with a 8800 GT. Those are similar options to what the OP question.

Now, the OP said he will be upgrading both the CPU and the GPU but can only do one at a time - so what will increase its FPS most meanwhile?

Probably the 5850.

In this case though, we also need to consider the fact the 5850 availability is very reduced which increased the prices of it.

Hard call.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
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well we can run benchmarks all day long and they will prove that a 5850 would have about half its performance go down the drain in some cases. last I looked this wasnt an option of get a cpu or get a video card. the op asked if he would be bottlenecking a 5850 with his 5600 X2 and the simple answer is YES. he then said he would be willing to get an i5 or Phenom 2 if he was. to me he has already realized that a better cpu is very much needed if he wants to come close to reaching the capabilities of the 5850.
 
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toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
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Some is the key. Yeah they do exist mostly consisting of MMO and low resolutions.
I am talking at 1920 not low resolutions or even mmo games at all. Ghostbusters, GTA 4, Resident Evil 5, Lost Planet, Red Faction Guerrilla, and Far Cry 2 would be some the games I was referring to. of course using 4x AA and especially 8x AA would lesson the difference significantly though.
 
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decadentia84

Junior Member
Nov 22, 2009
23
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Really didn't mean to start an argument. I will be upgrading my mobo+cpu (probably X4 955 or 965) on boxing day. I only ordered the 5850 for now (for 300 Canadian) as it takes ~1 month to get it in Canada lately.
I probably will cancel my order on the video card for now however, hopefully prices will come down in January and stock is less an issue.

Was just curious as to how bottlenecked it would be, for the month or so I would have had the x2 with the 5850. I'm not rich but I couldn't let the 5850 go to waste very long on my "piss poor" cpu ;)
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
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Really didn't mean to start an argument. I will be upgrading my mobo+cpu (probably X4 955 or 965) on boxing day. I only ordered the 5850 for now (for 300 Canadian) as it takes ~1 month to get it in Canada lately.
I probably will cancel my order on the video card for now however, hopefully prices will come down in January and stock is less an issue.

Was just curious as to how bottlenecked it would be, for the month or so I would have had the x2 with the 5850. I'm not rich but I couldn't let the 5850 go to waste very long on my "piss poor" cpu ;)
yeah hopefully those price will come down or at least not go up anymore. lol.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,628
158
106
last I looked this wasnt an option of get a cpu or get a video card. the op asked if he would be bottlenecking a 5850 with his 5600 X2 and the simple answer is YES.
Yep, it is bottle necked.

he then said he would be willing to get an i5 or Phenom 2 if he was. to me he has already realized that a better cpu is very much neede if he wants to come close to reaching the capabilities of the 5850.

Actually he said he was thinking of upgrading the CPU anyway. But who cares.


The problem is that you said the 5850 is a waste.

It might be - some other cheaper card might achieve the same frame rate at those resolutions than a 5850. If there is such a card, then yes, buying a 5850 is throwing out money.

Additionally, to state that upgrading the CPU is a better way of increasing the frame rate, we need to prove that the new CPU + current GPU will play games faster than current CPU + new GPU.

This is something hardware sites very rarely do.

EDIT: Guess part of this post came out too late.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
OP, hope you don't take any of our heated discussions as personal in any way. Your CPU is far from 'piss-poor' :) It's just not current for gaming right now :)
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,674
2,824
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please not this again. lol. even at 1920 and highest playable settings, I can lower my E8500 down to 2.0 and lose 30% in some games. thats just with a 192sp gtx260. a 5600 X2 is slightly slower than my E8500 at 2.0 and a 5850 is twice as fast as my 192sp gtx260 so it would be beyond ridiculous to use a 5850 with his setup. there are some games where he would literally only get around 50% of what a 5850 is capable of so yes this should be written off.

EDIT: I do see your point if running tons of AA but really overall the OPs cpu is not a good match at all for a 5850.
Not this again? The benchmarks were finished not two days ago. I haven’t published them yet because I have to be careful how to word the findings so as not to offend the e-peen-CPUMark-OC guys too much. These guys that insist you’re CPU limited unless you have a 4 GHz i7 aren’t going to like the slap of reality I give them.

I’m now convinced more than ever of the grossly inflated CPU requirements being plastered over the open forums.

Plenty of AA isn’t required; most games used only 2xAA, but the GTX285 was the bottleneck by far. In fact, in many cases the performance drop was linear in proportion to the GPU underclock. I’ve never seen such text-book bottlenecking.

Your benchmarks weren’t even run properly. You underclocked the CPU by 33% but you only underclocked the GPU about 15%. You also didn’t even run the CPU at stock while underclocking the GPU. Your tests are all over the place and you absolutely cannot infer anything from them.

I tested 16 games at the settings I play them at with a fixed 33% underclock to the CPU and GPU. In every case the GTX285 was the bottleneck by far; in most cases performance didn’t move at all with the 2 GHz underlock, but the GPU dropped performance by 33%.

I’m going to try to put up the article as fast as possible now because it’s really pertinent to this discussion.
 
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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,674
2,824
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A 5850 is $300. A new mobo/cpu/ram is $300 and up.

Between these options GPU is the way to go far as improving your frame rates especially at 1920x1200. Holding it back sure. You might be hitting 120fps with E8400 @ 4ghz but only 70fps with a X2 5600 but that's when CPU can tax all GPU power available usually at lower resolutions and no AA. When you increase resolution and AA that gap becomes smaller and smaller and is pretty much non existent on 8800gt at that resolution even with a much faster CPU.

Holding it back sure. The improvements far supersedes CPU and mobo upgrade which should be the poster's next upgrade to further improve his gaming needs.
I agree completely. With any kind of limited budget, you should always put the most money into the graphics system because it’ll net by far the biggest performance gain.

At 1920x1200 his 8800 GT will hold back performance far more than his CPU, especially if he uses any kind of AA. My GTX285 is a 100% bottleneck in many games at 1920x1200 with just 2xAA, and that’s about 3-4 times faster than a 8800 GT. When I run my CPU at 2 GHz, it’s probably pretty close to his one.

Toyota, I’m not saying the CPU/platform will make no difference. What I’m saying is that the GPU will make the biggest difference by far, so he should be allocating funds there first. This applies in general.

An E6850 underclocked to 2 GHz paired with a 5870 will be massively faster than a 8800 GT paired with a 4 GHz i7. It won't even be a contest.
 

decadentia84

Junior Member
Nov 22, 2009
23
0
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My GTX285 is a 100% bottleneck in many games at 1920x1200 with just 2xAA, and that’s about 3-4 times faster than a 8800gt

I'm curious about this part. By "3-4 times faster" what are you referring to? Most reviews i've seen comparing a 5850 to 8800GT = 2x the FPS. And that's including the review on this website. The GTX285 is quite comparable with the 5850 is it not, or at least close? Or are we talking about pure architecture/specs as opposed to performance.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,674
2,824
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I'm curious about this part. By "3-4 times faster" what are you referring to? Most reviews i've seen comparing a 5850 to 8800GT = 2x the FPS. And that's including the review on this website. The GTX285 is quite comparable with the 5850 is it not, or at least close? Or are we talking about pure architecture/specs as opposed to performance.
The 1680x1050 + 8xAA benchmarks show a ~3x difference between a 9800 GT and a 5850:

http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/...ire/18/#abschnitt_performancerating_qualitaet

That gap will grow as the resolution rises because a 512 MB 8800 GT will run out of VRAM.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
I'm assuming you can't post a link to your article because of Terms of Service in the forum? If that's true, since I'm new here, then I have no idea how to read your article. If someone cares to enlighten me, it would be much appreciated.

EDIT: Figured it out. Reading it now.
 
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AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
0
I am talking at 1920 not low resolutions or even mmo games at all. Ghostbusters, GTA 4, Resident Evil 5, Lost Planet, Red Faction Guerrilla, and Far Cry 2 would be some the games I was referring to. of course using 4x AA and especially 8x AA would lesson the difference significantly though.

Never played ghostbusters.

GTA4 is CPU intensive and not even a GPU intensive game at all. A bad console port at best that is dependent on CPU.

Resident Evil plays just fine on a 2 ghz C2D. Lost planet plays just fine as well. So does Red Faction or Far Cry2. GPU makes much more impact than a CPU will. That's for sure.
 

AzN

Banned
Nov 26, 2001
4,112
2
0
Really didn't mean to start an argument. I will be upgrading my mobo+cpu (probably X4 955 or 965) on boxing day. I only ordered the 5850 for now (for 300 Canadian) as it takes ~1 month to get it in Canada lately.
I probably will cancel my order on the video card for now however, hopefully prices will come down in January and stock is less an issue.

Was just curious as to how bottlenecked it would be, for the month or so I would have had the x2 with the 5850. I'm not rich but I couldn't let the 5850 go to waste very long on my "piss poor" cpu ;)

It would make a huge difference regardless of your CPU at that resolution.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
4
81
I'm assuming you can't post a link to your article because of Terms of Service in the forum? If that's true, since I'm new here, then I have no idea how to read your article. If someone cares to enlighten me, it would be much appreciated.

EDIT: Figured it out. Reading it now.
Yeah, that's one of the dumbest forum rules I've seen (and that's saying a lot). "Hey guys, I did a whole bunch of research that many of you will find interesting and helpful, but I need to phone-a-friend to get it posted so you can actually enjoy it."
The article is now up.
Excellent write-up and thanks for the time and effort you put into it. Unfortunately, it isn't really conclusive beyond the scope of the games you used, which is a problem because none of the games you used are CPU-intensive in the first place. While you addressed this in your "FAQ" section, none of your conclusions or responses conclusively answer the issue or in anyway diminish the validity and importance of the question. A fast CPU is just as important in some games as is a fast GPU.

In any discussion of "bottlenecking," the first question should always be "what are you planning to do with the system?", not a definitive yes or no. Using the current situation as an example, yes, the X2 5600 is an aged processor and definitely isn't a strong "partner" for the 5850. That doesn't mean the OP will see lots of bottlenecking, if any. The CPU is the same as the GPU when considering bottlenecking - both components have assigned tasks that they can complete at a certain FPS. If the GPU completes its tasks at the lowest FPS, it is the bottleneck, if the CPU does, it is the bottleneck. Most single player games are glorified movies, and it's really most of the rendering burden is placed on the GPU, as you would expect. However, if you throw in some advanced physics or AI, or you move the multiplayer platform, the situation will change dramatically. It's well known the MMO's and some RTS's will stress the living hell out of the CPU, but you can also do that in FPS's as well (Source multiplayer in high-capacity CS:S or TF2 servers, for example). Note that I'm not arguing dual core vs. quad core here, just the overall importance of CPU power. At any rate, it's important not to generalize.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
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he has already realized that a better cpu is very much needed if he wants to come close to reaching the capabilities of the 5850.

How does the CPU affect how well the GPU can be utilized? A weak CPU will also affect how well a small GPU can be utilized so I am having a hard time trying to figure this out?

Either the game has enough graphics demands or it doesn't. If resolution/AA/AF/detail settings are maxed out and frame rates don't change much....at that point we can say the GPU may be overkill for the game. But what does this have to do with the CPU?
 
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jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
How does the CPU affect how well the GPU can be utilized? A weak CPU will affect how well a small GPU can be utilized also so I am having a hard time trying to figure this out?
He is probably referring to fps. If the (weak) CPU limits a game to, say, 30fps, then throwing a Radeon 9950x2 on it would be a gigantic waste of future tech, since the game will still play at 30fps, since the limiting factor is the CPU, and if you want to escape the 30fps in this scenario, get a better CPU instead of upgrading to an all-powerful future GPU.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
1
81
Yeah, that's one of the dumbest forum rules I've seen (and that's saying a lot). "Hey guys, I did a whole bunch of research that many of you will find interesting and helpful, but I need to phone-a-friend to get it posted so you can actually enjoy it."

I tried searching for this forum's TOS, but the FAQ page seemed to be a generic vBulletin one. Where can I find a copy of the TOS of AT forums?
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
Currently have

AMD X2 5600+ 2.8ghz
8800GT
4GB DDR2 Gskill

I just ordered my Gigabyte ATI 5850 and am patiently awaiting for it to be available. I'm thinking of upgrading with boxing day sales to a AMD Phenom X4 965 or I5 750. Regardless, im just wondering how big of a bottleneck I will be placing on this video card with my current cpu?

Games run at 1920x1200

VERY bottlenecked. Anything over a 8800GT would need more CPU horsepower to shine.
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
106
He is probably referring to fps.

Well see that is the trouble here.

Who buys a video card for FPS? I buy video cards for graphics.

If a small video card and a Big video card are both able to max out the graphics settings then I know the bigger card was a waste of money.