? How best to manually trim SSD in Win XP ?

[SteveBijer]

? How best to manually trim SSD in Win XP ?

My laptop & 2 desktops all use Win XP. Each has a almost new SSD from OCZ for the boot & data partitions.

What tool manually trims best?

"AS Cleaner" using FF mode (freeware 0.5)
or
"CCleaner" using 'secure 1-pass file deletion' (freeware 3.05)

Both recover the original new speed of my SSD's after I use them.

Please just answer my question if you can. Please do not tell me to buy Win7.


Below is a detailed comparison of the SSD "trim" capabilities of CCleaner and "AS Cleaner 0.5" in typical tests.

Comparison Test Conclusions:

1) "AS Cleaner 0.5" takes the SAME TIME to trim a drive/partition regardless of how many bytes need to be reset to "0"

2) "CCleaner" takes VARIOUS TIMES to do a "secure 1-pass file deletion" (= reset used bytes to 0, or maybe to 1?).
The more files were just deleted, the more bytes need to be reset, and the longer it takes CCleaner to finish.

3) Probably AS Cleaner "trims" every unused byte whether it needs it or not = why it always takes the same time to operate. This may shorten the life of the SSD.

4) Probably CCleaner "trims" only the page containing files being deleted. This would not shorten the life of the SSD.

Sadly, Piriform, the maker of CCleaner, has never released information on CCleaner vis-a-vis SSD trim.


My test comparisons:

1) I used CCleaner to "secure 1-pass delete ("trim") my 40GB "C" partition.

a) Then I immediately deleted a ~15GB folder without using CCleaner (used Windows "folder too big" deletion)
b) Then I ran "AS Cleaner" which took 2m 39s to trim "C".


2) I used CCleaner normal file deletion (no secure 1-pass deletion) for ~1 week.

a) Then I deleted ~15GB folder, and used CCleaner "secure 1-pass deletion" --this took ONLY 20 seconds!

b) Then I immediately used AS Cleaner to trim "C" in 2m 39s

c) Then I deleted ~5GB of files, and again, AS Cleaner trimmed "C" in
2m 39s


What should I use for manual trim?
thanks!

 

[groberts101]

biggest question is which model SSD are you using here?

If Vertex 2(Sandforce) then you CANNOT manually trim the drive to regain speed due to Firmware algorithms called Durawrite. If Vertex 1(Indilinx) just stick with AS Cleaner/FF mode.

CCleaner has caused MANY issues since it writes HDD data(00's) rather than the necessary SSD data(11's).

Logging off overnight for either controller(at least 10 hrs straight) will allow GC to clean up the mess and rotate the data(Sandforce) to optimize efficiency.

 

[razel]

You cannot manually TRIM. You must let your drive take care of itself through it's garbage collection. The best way to do that? Trust it and leave it alone. Just use it, don't abuse it. Don't kill it any further by writing zeros and ones.

 

[Old Hippie]

You cannot manually TRIM.

Yep, not possible.

Garbage Collection (drive idle time) is actually doing the work of TRIM with no outside influence needed (you!) and neither of those cleaners is doing anything to actually keep the drives in top notch condition.

 

[Dark Shroud]

Just about anything you do to these drives "manually" will shorten the life span. Let the drive take care of its self. If you want trim that badly upgrade to Win7 or wait for Win8.

 

[razel]

It's sunday and it's beautiful out. I don't want to gang up on Steve.

To explain why. TRIM is a command issued by the OS telling the SSD what is empty. Since your OS is WinXP and doesn't support TRIM there is no TRIM information on the SSD. This isn't the end of the world. Your SSD still has garbage collection. GC is what's required to get your SSD back to speed. GC does a more efficient job with TRIM, but it also run fine without it. The problem is when GC runs. Which is what you're trying to do by writing zeros and ones. You're trying to force GC to run. However by writing zeros and ones just for the hell of it endlessly, you're really just killing your drive. Please don't do it unless OCZ says so.

I remember a thread on OCZ recommending this, but it was for an old SSD. I think it was for the broken and fixed Jmicron based SSD. The broken ones have an unacceptably slow GC and the fixed ones are just slow when writing. I own one of the fixed ones from Supertalent. It's a IDE based and yes it can be slow when writing at times, but it's still much faster than an IDE HDD. I also debated different ways on figuring out how to speed it up, including writing zeros and ones, but I ended up putting in an Intel SATA SSD through a SATA to IDE adapter and couldn't be happier.

If you have the same issue where the writes slow down too much to Jmicron levels, your time and efforts could be better spent on a better SSD. Hope this helps.

 

[groberts101]

No to veer off topic too much here but you guys are not giving inaccurate data to the OP. Many drives that support trim and have aggressive GC capability can be manually trimmed. What were we all doing just 2 years ago? Wiper, manual fills/deletes, etc, etc.

Fact is that the above AS Cleaner app works in near immedaite fashion to restore like-new performance on an Indilinx based drive due to very agressive Trim/GC capability from 1.4 firmware versions and beyond. So don't knock something if you haven't tried it.

And worrying about eating into the Petabyte's(do the math) write capability of an SSD is just silly as no one will want an SSD thats the size of a USB stick and not much faster in the next 3 years anyways. lol

These things are like a big giant pack of fireworks. I say.. "buy em', use em', burn em'". :thumbsup:

 

[Old Hippie]

No to veer off topic too much here but you guys are not giving inaccurate data to the OP.

You mean we're not giving accurate data? Check your wording?

AFAIK a TRIM command can only be given by the OS when it's (the OS) is working.

By itself, that's the defination of TRIM.

If you want to quibble about symantics neither CCCleaner or AS Cleaner can give a TRIM command because they are not the OS.

AFAIK neither CCleaner or ASCleaner qualify as an OS nor do they do the same thing.

What inaccurate data have I given?

 

[groberts101]

"Trim commands" and "manual trimming" are 2 entirely different things regardless of the word "trim" being in there. Is a loss in translation to be sure.

Fact is that you can do the AS Cleaner on drives in a raid array and have them respond with "trim-like" results. Now given the fact that the OP was asking about an OS that does not support trim to begin with I think it's pretty safe to say that he may understand that he's trying to MIMIC trim by doing it manually? Did I miss something? Or were incorrect assumptions made here?

 

[Old Hippie]

"Trim commands" and "manual trimming" are 2 entirely different things regardless of the word "trim" being in there.

The OP asked about TRIM and it can't be done manually.

There's no such thing as manual TRIMming because the OS isn't involved.

TRIM does basically (but better) than the GC included in all SSDs.

If you wanna talk "TRIM like" results that's OK but AFAIK all the programs presented by the OP do nothing but delete files and maybe consolidate files.

 

[groberts101]

Well then I guess we better get on the boards and start trying to reverse all this incorrect terminology then. Nicknames, oxymorons, misnomers and all the rest will have to go. Is more than fine by me.

Maybe we should just call it what it actually is then. Manual GC.

You win.. now we're back on track again and I learned something new.... I think. lol

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Enable Write Caching
Disable indexing
Disable Superfetch
Disable Prefetch
Firefox - Use memory cache instead of disk cache
Disable the Page File
Disable System Restore
Disable Hibernate

 

[razel]

I learned something too. There is a way to manually TRIM. Intel's SSD optimizer in it's very own Toolbox does this specifically as stated in their white paper. The optimizer will read the file system and send TRIM commands to the SSD which I assume tells it to run garbage collection ASAP.

I've always wondered why Intel said that optimizer isn't required for Win7. Now I know why. The optimizer is perfect for XP and Vista. Too bad it only works with Intel SSDs.

Luckily hdparm can also do this for other SSDs. I'll be trying this out on that old Supertalent JMircon. It got replaced but it's still in use in another laptop.

 

[groberts101]

Yeah.. OCZ has had wiper/GC tool for a while now with Indilinx too but GC is so aggressive now that it's not needed if logoff idles are implemented.

AS Cleaner with the FF option has been used for many as well since it writes the necessary 11's to tell the controller that the drives blocks are empty therefore allowing Trim-like recovery of speeds.

Any way we get to the end result here the effect is the same and controllers are much better and smarter these days to allow successful XP operation. Alignments are the only concern when setting up the SSD. My Vertex 1(Indilinx) never slows down and always runs tip-top on the kids PC with XP so it can be done quite easily.

 

[razel]

The problem with writing ones and zeros is still the basic fact that you're killing the drive early by writing useless data. I messed around with hdparam and it's Windows SSD Tweaker equivalent that has a manual TRIM option. It's definately for enthusiasts and not for your family members.

Because of this, I still think that upgrading to an SSD with better, more resilient GC is a better option for not TRIM OSs. Less effin' around with maintanence leads to more enjoyment with life. Unless you enjoy troubleshooting PCs.

 

[SteveBijer]

1st, WOW, thanks everyone for your input !

SADLY, I am CONFUSED by the "contradictory?" advice and info :-(

It seems that manual trim are both "4-letter" words. :-D

My goal is to restore "like-new" speed (as needed) while using the SSD for the next ~2 years.

You are right, Groberts101...I hope to buy new SSD's in < 24 months.

How much idle time do my SSD's need to "auto-restore" "like-new" speed via GC?!? I don't want to leave my computer running every night.

My SSD's are:

> OCZ "Agility 2" Sata2 60GB, firmware 1.22, s/n MWK0ACU71H89SH00

> OCZ "Vertex 2" Sata2 60GB, s/n f23a10003_1.10 (~10 months old)

So...NO great GC since their firmware is < 1.4 ?!? :-(

Yes, I love XP --it does everything I need-- so NO new OS for 3+ more years.

So, what restores speed for these SSD's without killing them too soon?!?
> idle GC
> AS Cleaner
> CCleaner (with 1-pass secure deletion)
> HDparam
> all/none of the above
> ??

THANK YOU again ! :-)

 

[razel]

My SSD's are:

> OCZ "Agility 2" Sata2 60GB, firmware 1.22, s/n MWK0ACU71H89SH00

> OCZ "Vertex 2" Sata2 60GB, s/n f23a10003_1.10 (~10 months old)

So...NO great GC since their firmware is < 1.4 ?!? :-(

Yes, I love XP --it does everything I need-- so NO new OS for 3+ more years.

So, what restores speed for these SSD's without killing them too soon?!?
> idle GC
> AS Cleaner
> CCleaner (with 1-pass secure deletion)
> HDparam
> all/none of the above
> ??

THANK YOU again ! :-)

Your SSDs are great. Other than backing up before a firmware update, I'd leave them alone. Spending hours writing useless data negates the time you hoped to save, unless you enjoy it.

But if you insist, perhaps putting your SSD into another system that is running Win7 and simply formatting will send the TRIM commands which will trigger GC. This is what Anand does during his TRIM testing.

 

[kmmatney]

The best SSDs for Windows XP are Intel (G2 and higher), since they have the SSD Toolbox that does an efficient TRIM operation on the drives, and it has a scheduler to run it automatic on a weekly basis. AFAIK you cannot manually TRIM Sandforce drives by using Cleaner programs. I have a both Intel SSD and an "Agility 2" SSD running on Windows XP at home - the Intel SSD has kept it's original performance using the Intel toolbox run weekly. The OCZ drive is permanently slower than it was in the beginning - although it's performance has leveled off (not getting any worse). The OCZ drives are still fast, and give the "SSD experience", but overall Intel SSDs are the best solution for XP.

 

[hanspeter]

There's no such thing as manual TRIMming because the OS isn't involved.

It is not impossible for an application to issue raw commands to a drive

 

[Old Hippie]

It is not impossible for an application to issue raw commands to a drive

I'll go with that.

It's just operating system dependent.

 

[SteveBijer]

Thanks Razel for the idea of reformatting them in a Win7 system....

Would the recovered top speed LAST at least 3 months??
Otherwise it is TOO much work.

Thanks kmmatney for mentioning Intel (G2 +)....

What about Kingston V+100 series with GC just for XP ??
Their price/GB is 60% less than Intel !

++++++++++++++++++

So far, for XP users of SSD's :

1) maybe AS Cleaner and/or CCleaner help with GC
2) ONLY buy Kingston or Intel SSD's

 

[bec]

I advise you to buy SSDs mostly by controller. Than I advise you to stay away from anything Sandforce. I know some might disagree but I only had problems with them -- big problems like going to sleep with a 1-week old working drive and waking up to one that would format itself every time I shut down the computer.

Also no drives really achieve the advertised speeds, but Sandforce really takes this a step too far. I got 110mb/s out of 220mb/s advertised drives with all optimizations in the world with all optimizations checked, double checked and triple checked. When I addressed support they called it normal !!! Also I've noticed they PAY reviewers to show the exact or really close to the specs on the package, few have real speeds posted.

After 3 drives in one month I finally got my money back.

I'd say:
Intel
Crucial/Micron (I'm getting the M4)

Kingston, dunno, they look rather slow vs the competition.



Regards

 

[adamantinepiggy]

Try this tool that was posted in the Crucial forums. Have not actually tested it yet myself, however others in the forums have reported favorably. Make sure you do a couple quick benchmarks before and after to see if it actually helps.

http://www.adultus-solus.com/download/SSDTool.exe

I ran it with no ill effects, but I didn't do any before or after tests so don't know if it actually did a trim. Don't know if it will work on other-then-Micron SSD's..

 

[sequoia464]

Thanks Razel for the idea of reformatting them in a Win7 system....

Would the recovered top speed LAST at least 3 months??
Otherwise it is TOO much work.

Thanks kmmatney for mentioning Intel (G2 +)....

What about Kingston V+100 series with GC just for XP ??
Their price/GB is 60&#37; less than Intel !

++++++++++++++++++

So far, for XP users of SSD's :

1) maybe AS Cleaner and/or CCleaner help with GC
2) ONLY buy Kingston or Intel SSD's

The Kingston V+100, from what I have read, have a VERY aggressive garbage collection. From Annands review it seems to be a fairly decent drive also. Apple uses a version similar to this for their Macs with no trim (from the review).
Here is the review ... http://www.anandtech.com/show/4010/kingston-ssdnow-v-plus-100-review

 

[quartz0]

Hello I'm in the market for an ssd on xp (mainly because i want a quiet pc). i was going to ask about how the V+100 drive compared...but saw someone mentioned it

seems like a good investment ? tbh my 2 main priorities are noise level, and how long the drive will last, speed isnt a big issue

saw this link, for partition alignment...? that info plus v+100 plus xp a reasonable combo ?

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/f...y-Doc-folder-move-and-Print-Spooler-on-Vertex