How bad are SecuRom and newer DRM schemes in games?

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: Mem


DRM is really no big deal ,way overblown as usual.

I'm sorry for not wanting to surrender control of my PC to EA/UbiSoft/Activision/etc. The backlash would be different if there was a pop up notice prior to the game install that stated 'This program requires SecuRom to authenticate. This software will install virtual device drivers that have been linked to security vulnerabilities, system instability, hardware failure, and corporate spying. Do you wish to install them now?'. Entirely true, and it'd be devastating to their sales, and rightly so.

Last time I checked I had control over my PC,as to security its still secure as usual,again DRM is way overblown,you got a beef with DRM take it up with all those pirates out there since you got them to thank for DRM ,you cant blame game companies/ developers for taking action and protecting their interests,a lot of hard work and time is put into their final product.

Recall the Sony-BMG Rootkit scandal? Where the rootkit essentially allowed hackers to 'recruit' your PC for the bot/spam network? SecuRom allows similar be introducing these vulnerabilities into the OS through its virtual device drivers.

You are surrendering your rights a small piece at a time. You may not notice things now, but watch the way the wind blows. Publishers, such as EA, are pushing increasingly restrictive DRM and push for increased control over <i>your</i> PC. Research Trusted (Treacherous) Computing, TPM modules, and the loathsome Cloud Computing. These are all horrible, anti-consumer ideas.

As for taking it up with the pirates, I leave 'Thank you' notes when I've been force to download cracks for my legally purchased games that include this crap. HOMM5 and Imperium Romanum, most recently. I'm not saying that developers shouldn't get compensated for their work, without a doubt, a lot of blood, sweat, and tears go into making a good game. But, we need to look at this objectively, plenty of games sell with minimal or no DRM at all and still sell more copies, with fewer bootlegs, than DRM'd up titles like Warhead of Sacred 2. Hell, more copies of Spore were pirated then were legally sold. Gotta wonder how much EA paid to Sony to use SecuRom, all it seemed to do was piss customers off and drive them to pirate the game.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: Mem

Last time I checked I had control over my PC,as to security its still secure as usual,again DRM is way overblown,you got a beef with DRM take it up with all those pirates out there since you got them to thank for DRM ,you cant blame game companies/ developers for taking action and protecting their interests,a lot of hard work and time is put into their final product.

If DRM did work to prevent piracy, then I would agree with you. But it doesn't and that's been proven time and time again. Activation/install limit DRM is in place to hinder the used market. Developers do deserve compensation for their hard work, I agree 100%. It's not the developers that are putting SecuROM on game discs though, it's the publishers.

The best DRM analogy is a flawed comparison that John Riccitiello (CEO of EA) said in an interview. He compared the activation based SecuROM they are including with games to using a key to get into your house. Funny thing is he forgot to mention one key factor. Using a key to get into your house protects you, so there is a real tangible benefit. SecuROM on the other hand protects EA, with no tangible benefit to you as a consumer. That's why I think it's such a great analogy since it's pretty much sums up DRM.

Fact is there is no perfect solution,if there was no piracy then DRM would not be needed,sure its not effective and piracy will always be around regardless of what software companies try to do,end of the day you can't expect them to give into illegal piracy,software companies will do what they have too,why make it easy for piracy?

End of the day its we gamers that suffer,I don't think we'll ever see a solution to these problems between software companies and piracy.

DRM that limits installs/systems, risk of destroying CD drives, detects programs it doesn't like and disables the game, never fully uninstalls (I got more picky lately) and creates security holes makes me just as bad as a pirate to the devs/publishers because I can buy their games & want to buy their games but don't. While I do not pirate games I do not own, they lost a sale with me and the friends I tell to avoid their game.

Despite the people screaming in shrill girly voices that the PC gaming market is dying, it'll be years before I run out of games to play and consoles are quickly becoming something to play while drunk (maybe then we can force ourselves to finish GW1/2). And let these companies fail and die, let new companies rise that don't follow the broken mold we have today.

My wallet has spoken.

(With regards to the OP, I do not know which is worse, Securom or Starforce. Both are on my boycott list so I never checked, wish I had stayed away from FO:3 and modded oblivion.)

-Edit- Oh, games on Steam without extra DRM and all games on Impulse have a very nice solution to piracy, and that is to reward those who pay. The solution is already here, though not a perfect one it is the best.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: Mem


DRM is really no big deal ,way overblown as usual.

I'm sorry for not wanting to surrender control of my PC to EA/UbiSoft/Activision/etc. The backlash would be different if there was a pop up notice prior to the game install that stated 'This program requires SecuRom to authenticate. This software will install virtual device drivers that have been linked to security vulnerabilities, system instability, hardware failure, and corporate spying. Do you wish to install them now?'. Entirely true, and it'd be devastating to their sales, and rightly so.

Last time I checked I had control over my PC,as to security its still secure as usual,again DRM is way overblown,you got a beef with DRM take it up with all those pirates out there since you got them to thank for DRM ,you cant blame game companies/ developers for taking action and protecting their interests,a lot of hard work and time is put into their final product.

Recall the Sony-BMG Rootkit scandal? Where the rootkit essentially allowed hackers to 'recruit' your PC for the bot/spam network? SecuRom allows similar be introducing these vulnerabilities into the OS through its virtual device drivers.

You are surrendering your rights a small piece at a time. You may not notice things now, but watch the way the wind blows. Publishers, such as EA, are pushing increasingly restrictive DRM and push for increased control over <i>your</i> PC. Research Trusted (Treacherous) Computing, TPM modules, and the loathsome Cloud Computing. These are all horrible, anti-consumer ideas.

As for taking it up with the pirates, I leave 'Thank you' notes when I've been force to download cracks for my legally purchased games that include this crap. HOMM5 and Imperium Romanum, most recently. I'm not saying that developers shouldn't get compensated for their work, without a doubt, a lot of blood, sweat, and tears go into making a good game. But, we need to look at this objectively, plenty of games sell with minimal or no DRM at all and still sell more copies, with fewer bootlegs, than DRM'd up titles like Warhead of Sacred 2. Hell, more copies of Spore were pirated then were legally sold. Gotta wonder how much EA paid to Sony to use SecuRom, all it seemed to do was piss customers off and drive them to pirate the game.

Rootkit scandal,how many real users here were effected yep nobody that I know of,again mountain out of a molehill scenerio,you don't like DRM fine just don't buy those games,personally as a gamer I don't mind supporting the games industry if it means I have to buy a game which has some form of DRM,I'm sure not going to support piracy or want those guys to have an easy run,as to our rights well we have being losing our rights since we was born so nothing new there,you still have the right to decide on buying a DRM included product or not,your call.

Gaming wise DRM is now part of the gaming industry,end of the day its not perfect and I can see why people don't like it but its here and I can't see it disappearing anytime soon regardless of how loud users scream about their rights.

As a gamer I can't see a perfect solution for both the gamer and software/game companies....Piracy is a real problem which a lot of people ignore and don't realize how much money is lost.


Yes DRM is a problem for many people and I can't say I'm 100% happy with it,howevr I understand why its there regardless of how I feel about it.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

How many people should have to be effected by it then Mem?
Wouldn't it be pretty ridiculous if even just one person had their system compromised by a ineffective and unnecessary piece of malware infecting a legitimate peice of software?
That is like saying that someone needs to die in an auto accident before safety precautions are enforced.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
How many people should have to be effected by it then Mem?
Wouldn't it be pretty ridiculous if even just one person had their system compromised by a ineffective and unnecessary piece of malware infecting a legitimate peice of software?
That is like saying that someone needs to die in an auto accident before safety precautions are enforced.

I think you are missing my point, DRM is far from perfect I already said that,I'll be first to say there is no perfect solution and DRM does cause problems, but if I want to play a DRM based game I only have a few options available as a gamer.

Would I like to see DRM go the way of the dodo?..Sure I would but whats going to replace it,how will they protect their software from piracy,answer is they can't period but does not mean they should give up.


As to security/stability thats always an issue regardless of DRM installed or not,everytime you browse the net or install a driver/hotfix that can also effect your PC,its occupational hazard that comes with the territory.

I'm a gamer first and if it means I have to live with DRM for gaming until its replaced or something better comes along then thats fine by me.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Mem
Rootkit scandal,how many real users here were effected yep nobody that I know of,again mountain out of a molehill scenerio,you don't like DRM fine just don't buy those games,personally as a gamer I don't mind supporting the games industry if it means I have to buy a game which has some form of DRM,I'm sure not going to support piracy or want those guys to have an easy run,as to our rights well we have being losing our rights since we was born so nothing new there,you still have the right to decide on buying a DRM included product or not,your call.

Gaming wise DRM is now part of the gaming industry,end of the day its not perfect and I can see why people don't like it but its here and I can't see it disappearing anytime soon regardless of how loud users scream about their rights.

As a gamer I can't see a perfect solution for both the gamer and software/game companies....Piracy is a real problem which a lot of people ignore and don't realize how much money is lost.


Yes DRM is a problem for many people and I can't say I'm 100% happy with it,howevr I understand why its there regardless of how I feel about it.

I was personally effected by starforce back during the time all that was all going on. It basically killed the DVD drive I was using at the time, or it at least stopped functioning in windows. It wasn't too huge of a deal since it was like a $20 drive, but still a PITA. So what I did was buy a new one and wired in an on/off switch for the drive. I did that so I could use virtual drive software without it getting blacklisted and play starforce games without the disc in the drive. That was the workaround at the time. It was so I could play TOCA 3 I think. For me it wasn't too bad to do all that, but an average computer user would have no idea how to do that.

Anyway, the problem with these invasive DRM schemes is they have the chance of causing problems. Just because it's a non-issue for a good majority of people, doesn't mean it shouldn't be a concern to them. They may not have troubles today, but who knows about tomorrow. It could also effectively turn them away from PC gaming altogether, and no one wants that.

What publishers need to realize is that invasive DRM only hurts the industry. It's not solving the piracy problem, and IMO it's leading more people towards piracy. If i'm joe schmoe consumer and I hear about something that many cause issue with my PC, even if I don't understand it, am I actually going to take the chance? Yes, it will probably not effect me, but it may just lead me to get the version that is known to work without any issues.. the pirate version.

There will always be DRM, that much is true. Personally i'm ok with SecuROM as long as it's just the disc check version. Others are against even that. It's the activation/install limit based protection that I have a problem with. When the benefits of choosing a pirate version outweigh the benefits of choosing a retail version, there is a problem.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: Mem
Rootkit scandal,how many real users here were effected yep nobody that I know of,again mountain out of a molehill scenerio,you don't like DRM fine just don't buy those games,personally as a gamer I don't mind supporting the games industry if it means I have to buy a game which has some form of DRM,I'm sure not going to support piracy or want those guys to have an easy run,as to our rights well we have being losing our rights since we was born so nothing new there,you still have the right to decide on buying a DRM included product or not,your call.

Gaming wise DRM is now part of the gaming industry,end of the day its not perfect and I can see why people don't like it but its here and I can't see it disappearing anytime soon regardless of how loud users scream about their rights.

As a gamer I can't see a perfect solution for both the gamer and software/game companies....Piracy is a real problem which a lot of people ignore and don't realize how much money is lost.


Yes DRM is a problem for many people and I can't say I'm 100% happy with it,howevr I understand why its there regardless of how I feel about it.

I was personally effected by starforce back during the time all that was all going on. It basically killed the DVD drive I was using at the time, or it at least stopped functioning in windows. It wasn't too huge of a deal since it was like a $20 drive, but still a PITA. So what I did was buy a new one and wired in an on/off switch for the drive. I did that so I could use virtual drive software without it getting blacklisted and play starforce games without the disc in the drive. That was the workaround at the time. It was so I could play TOCA 3 I think. For me it wasn't too bad to do all that, but an average computer user would have no idea how to do that.

Anyway, the problem with these invasive DRM schemes is they have the chance of causing problems. Just because it's a non-issue for a good majority of people, doesn't mean it shouldn't be a concern to them. They may not have troubles today, but who knows about tomorrow. It could also effectively turn them away from PC gaming altogether, and no one wants that.

What publishers need to realize is that invasive DRM only hurts the industry. It's not solving the piracy problem, and IMO it's leading more people towards piracy. If i'm joe schmoe consumer and I hear about something that many cause issue with my PC, even if I don't understand it, am I actually going to take the chance? Yes, it will probably not effect me, but it may just lead me to get the version that is known to work without any issues.. the pirate version.

There will always be DRM, that much is true. Personally i'm ok with SecuROM as long as it's just the disc check version. Others are against even that. It's the activation/install limit based protection that I have a problem with. When the benefits of choosing a pirate version outweigh the benefits of choosing a retail version, there is a problem.

Yes in the old days it was more of an issue then nowadays,remember Via 4 in 1 drivers back then when optical drives would disappear,I think most users would agree nowdays its less of an issue,I know Microsoft put strict requrements on Starforce for Vista x64 before it got WHQL approved.

End of the day there will always be some users with issues.

DRM is a concern but I don't see many legal alternatives for gamers that use DRM based games,if I want to game I don't have that many options at this time,nature of the beast as they say.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

How about Cd-keys.
They are equally effective in stopping casual piracy as these nasty DRM schemes.
It isn't SecuROM is slowing down the real pirates at all.
When you only have a cd-key to worry about, any security loophole would be the direct mistake of the game programmers not these virus writers...errum...DRM companies.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
How about Cd-keys.
They are equally effective in stopping casual piracy as these nasty DRM schemes.
It isn't SecuROM is slowing down the real pirates at all.
When you only have a cd-key to worry about, any security loophole would be the direct mistake of the game programmers not these virus writers...errum...DRM companies.

Thats been tried in the past,does not work well against piracy,yes it nice for we gamers but not enough for the gaming industry to protect their interests.

Again there is no perfect solution at this time.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Then explain how malware like SecuROM work any better

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Then explain how malware like SecuROM work any better

My point is simple, there is no perfect solution,whatever they use people will still be bitching about it and piracy will still be there,end of the day they'll go with what they want and feel is a better solution regardless of what we want.

How do you protect your product but at the same time fight piracy and keep gamers happy?..not easy as it sounds.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Then explain how malware like SecuROM work any better

My point is simple, there is no perfect solution,whatever they use people will still be bitching about it and piracy will still be there,end of the day they'll go with what they want and feel is a better solution regardless of what we want.

How do you protect your product but at the same time fight piracy and keep gamers happy?..not easy as it sounds.

I simple CD key system stops as much piracy as Securom, and it doesn't piss off the users. It sounds pretty easy to me.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Then explain how malware like SecuROM work any better

My point is simple, there is no perfect solution,whatever they use people will still be bitching about it and piracy will still be there,end of the day they'll go with what they want and feel is a better solution regardless of what we want.

How do you protect your product but at the same time fight piracy and keep gamers happy?..not easy as it sounds.

I simple CD key system stops as much piracy as Securom, and it doesn't piss off the users. It sounds pretty easy to me.

keys can be copied/cracked,CD/DVDs can be copied,old days was easy to make 100000 piracy copies of a game and use one key for them all.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: Mem
keys can be copied/cracked,CD/DVDs can be copied,old days was easy to make 100000 piracy copies of a game and use one key for them all.

And how does Securom make things any harder? You can bypass that in exactly the same way as before, by getting a crack.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: CP5670

Originally posted by: Mem
keys can be copied/cracked,CD/DVDs can be copied,old days was easy to make 100000 piracy copies of a game and use one key for them all.

And how does Securom make things any harder? You can bypass that in exactly the same way as before, by getting a crack.

You are missing the point,simple key is not good enough because piracy is becoming more advanced every year,game companies/developers are having to change and try new things to counteract piracy,its ever ongoing battle not to meantion how much money is involved.

There is no perfect solution however simple key is not good enough,nobody here including me has a perfect solution.

I can understand it from all sides,try seeing it from a game companies side for a change rather then a gamers perspective,then look at it from piracy side then gamers side,you see its not a simple matter or solution.

I never said game companies/developers have a perfect solution becasue they don't,end of the day I understand why they take measures however.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: CP5670

Originally posted by: Mem
keys can be copied/cracked,CD/DVDs can be copied,old days was easy to make 100000 piracy copies of a game and use one key for them all.

And how does Securom make things any harder? You can bypass that in exactly the same way as before, by getting a crack.

You are missing the point,simple key is not good enough because piracy is becoming more advanced every year,game companies/developers are having to change and try new things to counteract piracy,its ever ongoing battle not to meantion how much money is involved.

There is no perfect solution however simple key is not good enough,nobody here including me has a perfect solution.

You didn't actually address my question at all.

You keep saying a CD key or check is not good enough, but you have yet to show how Securom is actually better. The fact that neither one is perfect is irrelevant.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: CP5670

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: CP5670

Originally posted by: Mem
keys can be copied/cracked,CD/DVDs can be copied,old days was easy to make 100000 piracy copies of a game and use one key for them all.

And how does Securom make things any harder? You can bypass that in exactly the same way as before, by getting a crack.

You are missing the point,simple key is not good enough because piracy is becoming more advanced every year,game companies/developers are having to change and try new things to counteract piracy,its ever ongoing battle not to meantion how much money is involved.

There is no perfect solution however simple key is not good enough,nobody here including me has a perfect solution.

You didn't actually address my question at all.

You keep saying a CD key or check is not good enough, but you have yet to show how Securom is actually better. The fact that neither one is perfect is irrelevant.

I thought I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key),again however its an ongoing battle and has we know anything can be cracked with time especially with those clever pirates out there,no side wants to give in so you end up with all sorts of DRM/ copy protection available etc with each one trying to stop piracy at some level,unfortunately sooner or later they are cracked and the whole battle process starts again,end of the day we all know a simple key is not good enough and you can't blame the gaming industry trying something a little tougher.

Gamers get the short straw as always.

I don't have the solution ,nobody does at this time.

 

[CP5670]

I thought it I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key)

All the evidence we've seen of how fast cracks are released flies in the face of this assertion.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: CP5670

I thought it I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key)

All the evidence we've seen of how fast cracks are released flies in the face of this assertion.

So what are you saying they should give up?..again nobody has a perfect solution,SecuRom is only one out of many types of protection thats available,what the game company/publishers decide to use is down to them,I know one thing if it was me I would not use a simple key.

As to fast cracks thats why there is this ongoing battle ,niether side wants to give in.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: CP5670

I thought it I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key)

All the evidence we've seen of how fast cracks are released flies in the face of this assertion.

So what are you saying they should give up?..again nobody has a perfect solution,SecuRom is only one out of many types of protection thats available,what the game company/publishers decide to use is down to them,I know one thing if it was me I would not use a simple key.

In a word, yes. Go back to something simple (i.e. that doesn't install virtual device drivers) that does the job equally well. It's obvious by now that they are incapable of forcing the pirates to do anything, but Securom costs a decent chunk of money for them. It is to their own advantage to focus on the paying userbase and give them incentives to buy instead of incentives to pirate or boycott, as is the current situation.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: CP5670

I thought it I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key)

All the evidence we've seen of how fast cracks are released flies in the face of this assertion.

So what are you saying they should give up?..again nobody has a perfect solution,SecuRom is only one out of many types of protection thats available,what the game company/publishers decide to use is down to them,I know one thing if it was me I would not use a simple key.

As to fast cracks thats why there is this ongoing battle ,niether side wants to give in.

Give up?
Not really, they should give up installing malware on our machines.
Why are you so convinced that SecuROM provides any benefit?
All you have to do is search *inster your favorite torrent site* a week before a game's street date and you'll see how little DRM does to deter these titles from getting pirated.

 

[lxskllr]

Make people want to buy the game. Include extras... Tshirts, art books, nice packaging... Make a game people want to play. If you're doing console and PC, separate that damned development teams. Give the PC a PC gui, and control setup. Don't screw your customers. If your game has bugs, fix them promptly. Add new content, and Most of all, get rid of the F'n DRM that screws over people's machines, and delays the ability to play the game for hours or days.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: CP5670

I thought it I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key)

All the evidence we've seen of how fast cracks are released flies in the face of this assertion.

So what are you saying they should give up?..again nobody has a perfect solution,SecuRom is only one out of many types of protection thats available,what the game company/publishers decide to use is down to them,I know one thing if it was me I would not use a simple key.

As to fast cracks thats why there is this ongoing battle ,niether side wants to give in.

Give up?
Not really, they should give up installing malware on our machines.
Why are you so convinced that SecuROM provides any benefit?
All you have to do is search *inster your favorite torrent site* a week before a game's street date and you'll see how little DRM does to deter these titles from getting pirated.

Again its not what I want,I don't have a solution,I did not invent SecuRom etc...I do understand why they want to protect their products however,again you can thank piracy for the problem not me,I'm just a gamer.

Piracy is a very serious issue for them ,I don't think you guys realize that,they have to do something does not matter if we like it or not.

 

[IEC]

I hate intrusive DRM and all the baggage associated with it. The only real DRM'd content I have on my computer right now is Steam, with Valve games and none with added DRM. Starfvck killed one of my CD drives and I have no intention of installing similar crap just to play a game.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu

Originally posted by: Mem

Originally posted by: CP5670

I thought it I did ,old days you had a simple key which that was very very simple for pirates to crack,SecuRom etc comes in different versions that make it more difficult then a simple key(some Securom versions are harder to crack then others and definetly harder then a simple key)

All the evidence we've seen of how fast cracks are released flies in the face of this assertion.

So what are you saying they should give up?..again nobody has a perfect solution,SecuRom is only one out of many types of protection thats available,what the game company/publishers decide to use is down to them,I know one thing if it was me I would not use a simple key.

As to fast cracks thats why there is this ongoing battle ,niether side wants to give in.

Give up?
Not really, they should give up installing malware on our machines.
Why are you so convinced that SecuROM provides any benefit?
All you have to do is search *inster your favorite torrent site* a week before a game's street date and you'll see how little DRM does to deter these titles from getting pirated.

Again its not what I want,I don't have a solution,I did not invent SecuRom etc...I do understand why they want to protect their products however,again you can thank piracy for the problem not me,I'm just a gamer.

Piracy is a very serious issue for them ,I don't think you guys realize that,they have to do something does not matter if we like it or not.

And CD-keys are something.
Less intrusive for those who pay for the software and no less a deterrent to those that don't.
DRM is NOT the answer.