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how are we going to get into space cheaply in the future?

iwantanewcomputer

Diamond Member
A space elavator using a carbon nanotube wire seems cheap enough to get large cargoes into space, but it seems dangerous and/or hard to implement. the carbon technology doesn't seem close to being able to mass produce these things, or join them together into reasonably long strands

there was a lot of talk a few years back about a shuttle like thing with a mirror/solar panels on the bottom. a giant laser would be built on the ground to shine at the ship and power it up...this doesn't seem like it could lift anything out of the atmosphere

fission/fusion reactor propultion???? too risky to explode and spew plasma or radioactive goop all over

any others...any timeframes on upgrades to chemical propultion?
 
Space elevators is science fiction for now and will remain so for a good while. Many technologies need to emerge and mature before that's a reality. Including cheaper space flight.

Ground based laser driven atmosphere breathing booster engine, the same. We do not have laser technology for that. The energy economy vs. the higher weight of bringing reaction mass and fuel is not clear either. It may well be many times more expensive.

Nuclear propulsion is not cheap, and politically impossible. Nuclear propulsion is primarily interesting for longer space journeys, where it has real capabilities in contrast with chemical rockets which are pretty useless.
Not so much for getting to orbit. We need lots of reaction mass anyway to get to orbit, so there's no benefit from using nuclear energy.

Cost of fuel itself is not really a large part of the costs. The technology of a safe to-orbit-and-back vehicle itself and managing the operation of it is. Reducing the amount of fuel/reaction mass needed will however result in a cheaper vehicle, of course.

More advanced, simplified and more robust vehicle technologies, as well as series production is the key to cheaper space. The safer and more routine operation becomes, the cheaper it will become to manage it. Once developed, systems shouldn't be costly today, in our computer age.

The energy involved in reaching orbit, and being shed during reentry is responsible for much of the run up of costs.
Energy is exponentially proportional to weight of orbit vehicle.
Greater weight needs more fuel - is more weight - needs more structure - is more weight - needs more fuel - is more weight - needs more structure...

Obvious is that low weight of vehicle is extremely advantageous. So this must be pursued to extreme. To extreme.
Also, cost of reentry (heat shielding) can be reduced by accepting more violent reentry. (More g's, more energy shed in shock waves and turbulence, and less in aerodynamic skin friction and heat.) This requires a very strong vehicle. As a side bonus, the reentry may also become safer.

Similarly, we don't want to pussyfoot into orbit. Both the total cost of energy to reach orbit and the cost of rocket engine itself can be reduced by more violent acceleration.
The shuttle concept of comfortable low-g spaceflight should maybe be abandoned, in the interest of safety and economy. Take the g's or don't go to space. I don't think that is unreasonable at all.

Conclusion is that we want both strength and light weight.
Both those things as well as great integrity of strength can be accomplished by utilizing composite plastics featuring carbon fibre, polyaramide fibre or even straight-chain polyethene fibre (strongest known). Strength and strength/weight of such structures is incredible and even defies common sense. They should be used for structure of space vehicles, regardless of other problems, such as heat tolerance.

While an aircraft like a jumbo jet is expensive to develop, it is comparatively cheap, safe and reliable to operate on a daily basis and can have a 30-40 year lifespan. I gather that the air force is even aiming for close to 100 years for their B52s. It seems obvious that a carry plane should be developed. This should be an extreme, specialized aircraft, able to carry a large payload to great height, maybe 70,000ft. Again this aircraft should be built exclusively from composites to achieve very low weight. (It also seem obvious that the to space vehicle and orbit vehicle should be similarly reusable, with a long operational life.)

Then a second aerodynamic vehicle is released from the aircraft, and flies out of the atmosphere on a simple booster type of rocket engines. After releasing the to-orbit vehicle, it is pilotless and reenters and glides back to the ground by remote piloting/autopilot. Reentry of this vehicle is trivial with violent aerodynamic deceleration. Needing no heat shielding.

The orbital vehicle with an advanced chemical rocket engine then flies on to orbit. The orbit vehicle should also be aerodynamic for return flight.
 
I don't think there will be any alternatives to chemical propulsion in the forseable future. If someone succeds in building "space plane" that only uses re-usable booster rockets and e.g. a ramjet motor the cost of putting payloads into orbit will drop to a point where even space tourism etc will be feasable.
The cost of of the fuel is not a big issue, and rockets do not use oil.

The success of the X-price and Spaceship one has shown that it is possible to go into space (but not into orbit yet) using relatively cheap methods, it'll be interesting to see if one of those companies eventually manages to put a payload into orbit.

 
I agree, there's no new technologies to take over chemical rockets on the horizon, anything else is still pure science fiction.

If you want cheap space flight, you need to move away from NASA, they're obsession with safety has resulted in a crippled space program that hasn't moved forwards since the introduction of the space shuttles, and even that could be considered a step backwards. The space shuttle program takes up huge resources, they're pretty pants compared to what they should have been, but budget cuts and stupid decisions made them a big disappointment, NASA can't afford to replace them either. The ISS didn't really help aswell, it's expensive and doesn't have much use, other than giving something for countries to work together on.

If we want cheap space flight it lies with commercial companies, but all the teams that entered for the XPrize are too small to make a difference yet (hell they can barely make it above the atmosphere yet), and all the big ones like Boeing are too scared to try.

I'd love to see a successor to the shuttle, one that builds on what we've learnt, that isn't tied down by safety. Pity there's no one able or willing to do that.
 
ummm...i know they don't put oil in the rockets...but how do you think they get hdrogen gas. most any energy used comes from fossil fuels. they just burn the fossil fuel and use that energy to form other chemicals
 
Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
ummm...i know they don't put oil in the rockets...but how do you think they get hdrogen gas. most any energy used comes from fossil fuels. they just burn the fossil fuel and use that energy to form other chemicals

Very true, most of our electricity here in the US comes from coal. Now hopefully once Nuclear Fusion takes off we will be able to store that energy as hydrogen more efficiently. Eventually we will scale down fusion reactors just as we did with fission, but I doubt we will live to see that day. Some time after that comes antimatter...
 
Still don't understand how everyone thinks that antimatter can be used to generate electricity, since the stuff doesn't exist naturally we have to make it first, it's essentially just a way of storing energy. If you're suggesting using it as a method of propulsion, I wouldn't dare use it in earths atmosphere, antimatter reacting with regular matter gives off huge ammounts of radiation, so unless you want to kill everyone around the launch site I wouldn't recommend it. It's also extremely dangerous in any significant quantity, there's nothing more volatile than it, it will react with absolutely anything (not including other antimatter), if containment is lost you've basically got a giant nuke going off.
 
I see no alternative to chemical energy rockets any time soon. Space planes sound good but they have been talked about for decades and no one has one yet so there must be issues unresolved. Ion drives can be deployed once in space to allow long journeys but time frames quickly reach decades and centuries if your looking at anything outside the solar system. Nuclear holds a lot of promise but political BS will most likely keep it from ever being put to use.
 
I think a space plane in the meaning of a gigantic scramjet that takes off from the ground and accelerates to mach 5 and then skips above the atmosphere, is way too technically complex and expensive in relation to what it offers in altitude and energy reached.

Getting into space to offer the orbit vehicle vacuum for it's rocket exhaust, is something that I think can be accomplished much simpler, safer, easier and cheaper with an intermediate vehicle. That vehicle don't need any heat shielding, can be very light, don't need to be manned, and can use simple rocket engines.

The carry plane in turn, while an advanced high altitude aircraft, do not need to be hypersonic or even supersonic, making it a far more conventional, economical, low risk aircraft.
 
especially with rising oil price

Buring petrol will not get you anywhere near space.

At the very least you would need liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen


However, high altitude aircradt can relay on conventional fuel. But since air is scarce, rocket engine would be much better performer on near-space altitude
Innovations on propulsion technology such as Air collecting scramjet might help a bit.
 
sounds absolutely retarded but.

has there been any hardcore research into magnetic propulsion. not in the sense of same polarity devices in the vehicle driving the vehicle in a certain direction. But a device that could use the earths own magnetic field ie: gravity. the device would be inside the vehicle causing the vehicle to push off the ground (same "polarity" causing it to move in opposite directions of the earth's gravitational pull).. but saying that now i think that once you have reached the equal push as gravity's pull you would float.. is that correct ? also since gravity pulls down and not side to side or angular, then something else would be needed for anything other than up and down movement. there comes into play the devices inside the vehicle creating same polarity fields that would push the vehicle in the desired direction.

sounds silly i guess just a thought.

what about other types of non "nuclear" types of energy. energy comes from man made and natural things so, plasma, liquid, radioactive, whatever. physical things put off energy and there must be more things than "nuclear" type substances that put off energy that can be used as propulsion.

Lastly once in space, fuel is minimal once set into motion an object will hold that course, speed and velocity until it collides with something or a magnetic field changes it, such as the gravity of a moon or large planet.
I always thought it interesting to see people talk about fuel consumption in space. aside from initial boost and manueverability there is no consumption, aside from, again manuevering away from a straight line trajectory.

the further into the atmosphere you go dies the earth's gravity lessen ? or does it only happen once your into "space"
the reason i ask is fuel consumption into the later part of the atmosphere aside from physical outer space.

reentry is no issue since a powered reentry would eliminate the need for heat shielding and massive G forces. same for exiting the atmosphere,, except exiting would take longer. in the massive G sense. your not taking a direct G hit when your spiraling out of the atmosphere. in fact shouldnt the effect be minimal when sent on a low enough angle out of the atmosphere(if your talking a spiral or direct line path)? again fuel consumption would be an issue with this as it would take longer to reach space cuz of the low trajectory angle. but then again your not fighting G's to exit the earth's pull your slowly climbing a long hill out.

all of that sounds really silly i guess just adding thoughts into the mix.
 
First of all it should be understood that an object in orbit represents a higher storage of energy in velocity and altitude. At the very least that energy has to be transferred to the object.

But that's not enough, of course, we will end up using much more energy that will be lost in being transferred to the reaction mass that is needed to obtain a reaction force, and also in overcoming air resistance and lost in inefficiency during energy conversions.

Chemical rocket fuel serves two purposes. It provides the energy from a chemical reaction. But it is also provides the reaction mass.

The more energy you have, the less reaction mass you need. And the opposite, more reaction mass needs less energy.
The energy that is transferred to the vehicle is proportional to the reaction force times the duration the force is active. The reaction force obtained from an engine is proportional to the mass of the reaction mass times the velocity by which it is ejected. But the energy that is needed to eject the reaction mass is proportional to the mass times the square of the velocity.

So if you can do with twice the reaction mass you only need one fourth of the energy, if everything else were the same. But that's not the case. More reaction mass means more mass to accelerate, so this is a differential equation.

The scramjet space plane provides two things here. It mainly uses air as reaction mass, it can use lots of reaction mass, and it doesn't need to bring that itself. It only needs to carry the fuel for energy. The idea then is that it would pull up, coast and use the built up kinetic energy of its speed to break out of the atmosphere. The idea is theoretically attractive, because we use air as reaction mass to get out of the atmosphere.
But we end up using lots of energy anyway, because that's a big aeroplane with heat shielding, large tanks and big fuel guzzling engines that we propose to fling out into space.

I think already X15, but even more White Knight and Spaceship One, hints that all that is great overkill of expensive and complex technology. Instead carry the rocket fuel needed high enough instead. And we don't need to fling the whole aeroplane into space either. An smaller rocket plane will do. The rocket fuel instead represents the energy of the mach 5 speed.

Static air pressure affects the design needed for a reaction engine to be effective. That's why jet engines have variable exhausts. And that's why old space rockets and even the shuttle switched engines progressively as it reaches higher altitudes.

So once we get into space the problem becomes smaller. No longer does friction constantly deplete the energy that we have already built up, and our rocket engine can also be optimized for operation in vacuum. Now we "only" have to reach safe orbital speed and altitude which I believe is at least 400Km.

Earths gravity does not lessen at all significantly. The phenomenon that is experienced is lack of weight, not lack of gravity. Please note that carefully.

Instead, as we increase speed outside the atmosphere, more and more of the gravity is used to curve the trajectory to keep the vehicle in a trajectory following the earth. We need less and less rocket force to compensate our flight direction to counter the "fall" that gravity drags us to. Thus the g's we feel from the rocket represent less and less a compensation for effect of gravity.
Similarly, the energy spent is less and less wasted on compensating gravity.
In that respect, the effect of gravity lessens.
We cannot "feel" the gravity though. What is felt is the accelerating force from the rocket engine.

When finally in orbit, we are constantly "falling" freely, due to the effect of gravity. But since the earths surface curves away from us, we never loose altitude. We are in orbit.

The apparent lack of gravity in space is due to free fall. On the ground, you feel a force from the ground that is stopping your "fall". That's how you "feel" the effect of gravity.
You feel the force that is stopping you from falling. That is the force that is weight.

Once you stop the rocket engine in a space vehicle, you will no longer feel the force from the rocket engine accelerating you. The space vehicle will then be "falling", even if it still moving upwards. It is decelerated and then later accelerated by gravity. There is no force that stops or interferes with this. Thus you cannot feel any force and thus you experience the phenomenon of weightlessness.

The case of being in orbit is identical, only since you're not loosing altitude due to the earths surface curving away from you, you cannot fall down on earth again. But you are falling freely. That is why there is no weight.


The earths magnetic field is not strong enough to carry any vehicle.

Heat shielding is much, much lighter than powered reentry. It's no contest at all. Also heat shielding, since passive, is much more reliable and safer.

Traveling farther away from earth involves building up enough speed to break away from Earth's gravity, and adjusting the energy state that is represented by our position in orbit around the sun. That's one reason why it's difficult and needs large amount of energy, making chemical rockets almost useless.

Remember a vehicle coasting in the solar system is not traveling in a straight line and constant speed! It is in free fall relative to the Sun! So fuel consumption is indeed a concern.

Another is the distances and travel times involved. Again we want higher speeds. Nuclear propulsion with very high exhaust speeds but small amounts of reaction mass (plasma jet) is the solution. A compromise might be solar power driving the engine. But it will be less effective farther from the sun.

The case of getting into orbit is different. Here we need strong forces to quickly break out of the atmosphere and break away from the "loosing altitude" effect of gravity. Large reaction masses are needed for that, so there's no point in not using chemical fuel.
 
Originally posted by: Vee
Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
At the very least you would need liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen

That's the ultimate fuel. Not the "at the very least".


Traditional petroleum mix would not have enough efficiency to power a payload that heavy to space. If it can easily be done, We'd have be seeing flying cars by now. I'm not joking
 
Originally posted by: AnnihilatorX
Traditional petroleum mix would not have enough efficiency to power a payload that heavy to space. If it can easily be done, We'd have be seeing flying cars by now. I'm not joking

?
Even all solid fuel rockets are routinely used to put satellites into orbit.
And liquid Oxygen / liquid Hydrogen was only used in the final stage of SaturnVb, I believe. And that was to go to the Moon, not to just go to space.

It might be a good idea to use Oxygen/Hydrogen. But it's not necessary, and might not be the best way. The first thing to try seriously, should be to break out of the mindset that created the Shuttle.
 
We are just about seeing flying cars. If the regulatory system was in place...

Anyway. Considering the tiny tiny scale of space launch (in energy terms) I really dont think its a problem.

re ion engines, surely journeys outside of the solar system are going to be quicker than the chemically, non-slingshotted equivalents? A few months or a year to get up to similar speeds, then another year getting way beyond them.
 
Now, Vee, I just wanted to say that a big mass for the first stage of an airlaunched system is not such a big problem - after all, jet engines have an efficiency much greater than a rocket engine. So, the plane that will fly at 70 000 feets and launch the second stage of the spaceship can be heavier, great reduction in weight is extremely important only for the mass that is propelled by rocket engines.
Other than that, great topic.

And, by the way, the soviet Energhia/Buran (their space shuttles) might have been more efficient than the US shuttles (Energhia being the second stage launcher, the big fuel tank and the second stage engines. The american system has the second stage engines on the shuttle itself (if what I know is correct).
So, Buran will have smaller engines on the shuttle itself, so less energy is wasted accelerating unusable mass to orbit (once the main liquid fuel tank is dropped, the second stage engines are not needed, as shuttle fuel is scarce)
 
soy power
hemp materials
in all seriousness, once we get a space station set up halfway between here and mars, and one on mars, we can mine the rich iron ore on mars for all our space travel needs. We've already been able to produce high-efficient fuel from oxidated ores in experiments here on earth for when we get to mars
 
Originally posted by: mdchesne
soy power
hemp materials
in all seriousness, once we get a space station set up halfway between here and mars, and one on mars, we can mine the rich iron ore on mars for all our space travel needs. We've already been able to produce high-efficient fuel from oxidated ores in experiments here on earth for when we get to mars

can someone verify the validity of this? seems interesting...
 
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid751.php

gotta love hydrogen fuel 🙂
OXIDIZED IRON MAY PROVE TO BE HYDROGEN FUEL PRODUCER
Professor Kiyoshi Otsuka of the Tokyo Institute of Technology's Applied Chemistry Department may have discovered a method of producing hydrogen fuel on board cars by augmenting the oxidation process. Vehicle manufacturers such as General Motors and BMW are working for the technological lead in fuel cell technology in order to receive government support in the US and Europe. Thus, new developments in hydrogen production are important.

the main story was in a discovery channel special on space exploration. basically, they somehow get hydrogen from the oxidized oron ore on mars, store it in large vats and tanks on mars, and refuel ships/power the space city with it
 
Originally posted by: Calin
Now, Vee, I just wanted to say that a big mass for the first stage of an airlaunched system is not such a big problem - after all, jet engines have an efficiency much greater than a rocket engine. So, the plane that will fly at 70 000 feets and launch the second stage of the spaceship can be heavier, great reduction in weight is extremely important only for the mass that is propelled by rocket engines.

True.
But I was thinking one step farther. Flying at high altitudes is not easy. Flying at high altitudes require attention to weight. Otherwise the weight of the wingstructure alone is going to be more than the wingarea can carry.

This is one area where the speed of the scramjet spaceplane helps.

 
I was just thinking at first stage launches of 15 kilometers or so (10 miles high). This height is easily attainable by current planes (like B-52). Higher than that, yes, the "launch platforms" must be designed with completely different goals.
However, I don't think one would gain much from a higher launching platform - as the mass the launching planes can carry will decrease greatly with increases in altitude.
If I remember correctly, US launched satellites born by Pegasus rockets from B-52s flying at 10 miles high.
 
Hmm. Height can only really be that big an advantage because it allows lower frictional losses. I mean that change in energy from sea level to 40,000ft isnt that big.
 
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