How Apple can have a 4" retina display in their next iPhone

[BenSkywalker]

2. Thanks for making that up. You don't know what you're talking about.

Really? I love it when I hear people say that. Please explain how that isn't true. Either you are arguing that 300dpi is in fact the pinnacle of quality, or you are claiming that you exist in a reality where paper fibers don't cause ink to bleed during printing. If your eyes are really, really poor- use a magnifying glass.

4. I'm referring to RD. Most people can see the difference on that level.

It is much easier to see the difference on a 50" TV, you can spot it from 10' away if you aren't nigh blind. My point is that resolution is only *one* element of a display.

5. I don't understand why you think something so minor is more noticeable than a resolution difference.

A ~500x speed increase and far larger contrast increase is significantly removed from minor.

6. I do a lot of reading at hardocp.

Why do you think that means anything? IIRC they had a thread that had been going for years about the people on that site that refused to give up their CRTs because of how terrible LCDs are. Heh, just checked, it's still going. Doesn't mean much in terms of what technology is better, it's like saying SSDs aren't *vastly* superior to mechanical drives. It's just nonsense.

I know what fast displays or CRTs benefit and you're reaching/blowing up the importance of response time in a phone.

No, I'm not satisfied over very slow displays. A simple page swipe badly blurs on an iPhone. If you can't see it, all the power to you. Some people don't notice the huge speed difference between a TN panel and a CRT either(TN is much better then the iPhone, but still very poor).

7. If you're so sensitive to speed I thought that it's peculiar that you don't mind OS lag which is more noticeable than display response.

My iPhones lag more then my Androids. Not entirely a fair comparison as the iPhone doesn't have the same level of hardware. Waiting for the KB to open, moving back and forth between menus and scrolling on pages. Overall IME the iPhone is worse then best Android devices by a considerable amount in terms of overall responsiveness, but that has nothing to do with the display.

8. Faster response != vastly superior.

You keep ignoring the staggering edge in contrast which we can't even put a hard number on because percentage wise
it gets into that infinite range. When looking for a quality display having one that is ~500x faster and has an even greater edge in contrast, what would you call it?

9. Never said this. Also you don't think future phones won't have higher res screens?

Of course they will. Again, my point is that OLED is *vastly superior* to IPS. The technologies aren't remotely close. Bring up this thread again in five years and you will likely laugh at yourself for arguing the point.

That's all, I really don't care what is better, I just want a 4"+ 300dpi display.

Steve Jobs said you would not buy it, so why do you care?

To avoid accidental "touches" from holding the phone? Just put sensors on the side that detect (and disable) such accidental touches. Problem solved.

So create a phone with a screen that only a portion of works? That sounds like a very, very bad idea. You would need to use OLED for displays with nigh no bezel also, not that I think it is a good idea to have less then a few mm on a touch device.

 

[MrX8503]

1. Really? I love it when I hear people say that. Please explain how that isn't true. Either you are arguing that 300dpi is in fact the pinnacle of quality, or you are claiming that you exist in a reality where paper fibers don't cause ink to bleed during printing. If your eyes are really, really poor- use a magnifying glass.

2. It is much easier to see the difference on a 50" TV, you can spot it from 10' away if you aren't nigh blind. My point is that resolution is only *one* element of a display.

3. A ~500x speed increase and far larger contrast increase is significantly removed from minor.

4. Why do you think that means anything? IIRC they had a thread that had been going for years about the people on that site that refused to give up their CRTs because of how terrible LCDs are. Heh, just checked, it's still going. Doesn't mean much in terms of what technology is better, it's like saying SSDs aren't *vastly* superior to mechanical drives. It's just nonsense.

5. No, I'm not satisfied over very slow displays. A simple page swipe badly blurs on an iPhone. If you can't see it, all the power to you. Some people don't notice the huge speed difference between a TN panel and a CRT either(TN is much better then the iPhone, but still very poor).

6. My iPhones lag more then my Androids. Not entirely a fair comparison as the iPhone doesn't have the same level of hardware. Waiting for the KB to open, moving back and forth between menus and scrolling on pages. Overall IME the iPhone is worse then best Android devices by a considerable amount in terms of overall responsiveness, but that has nothing to do with the display.

7. You keep ignoring the staggering edge in contrast which we can't even put a hard number on because percentage wise
it gets into that infinite range. When looking for a quality display having one that is ~500x faster and has an even greater edge in contrast, what would you call it?

8. Of course they will. Again, my point is that OLED is *vastly superior* to IPS. The technologies aren't remotely close. Bring up this thread again in five years and you will likely laugh at yourself for arguing the point.

9. Steve Jobs said you would not buy it, so why do you care?

1. Never said 300dpi was the pinnacle, just that, this is the minimum for print. Again, you're making up stuff about a topic you don't know much about.

2. I already understand your point of it being "one" element. Did you not say that its hard to tell the difference in resolution? What point are you trying to make? What consumers can see or it being one element? You're jumping around.

3. It is minor because although the response difference is large actual utility is minor. A car that can go 500mph isn't going to do you any good on the highway.

4. Users over at HardOCP aren't clamoring over CRT like response times for their phones. CRT response times have their uses which is why they are still being used, but I have yet to hear anything about a cellphone display being too slow.

5. Badly Blurs? Yeah right dude, keep telling yourself that. You're super sensitive to that, but yet blind to Android lag. Maybe if you take off your fanboy goggles you can see better.

6. The iPhone trumps Android in speed/smoothness. Read Anand's articles, he mentions this along with GPU acceleration.

7. Uh you keep ignoring me when I say its better in some aspects, but not vastly. Maybe a mature OLED display years from now will be, but not now. Also for some reason you keep hinting that IPS displays are crap. Thats funny because IPS displays are one of the best for color accuracy. Super high contrast and response time. Wow the two things most people don't care about in a display.

8. Never said OLED wasn't going to be in the future.

9. What can I say, I'm not a fanboy like yourself.

 

[BenSkywalker]

1. Never said 300dpi was the pinnacle, just that, this is the minimum for print. Again, you're making up stuff about a topic you don't know much about.

300dpi tends to be the minimum for magazine print, newspapers tend to be a decent amount lower.

2. I already understand your point of it being "one" element. Did you not say that its hard to tell the difference in resolution? What point are you trying to make? What consumers can see or it being one element? You're jumping around.

My point was that given a choice between a display with higher resolution or a display with much better contrast and speed the majority of AV enthusiasts will take the resolution hit as long as it isn't severe. Telling the difference between 720p and 1080p with a decent source is very easy even from a reasonable distance, but the difference in contrast and speed is easier to see from an even greater distance.

3. It is minor because although the response difference is large actual utility is minor. A car that can go 500mph isn't going to do you any good on the highway.

When your option is a car that can go 5mph versus one that can go 2500mph the utility difference is quite large. Sure, you may never need to utilize the upper limits of what it can do, but 5mph on the highway certainly isn't going to get it done.

4. Users over at HardOCP aren't clamoring over CRT like response times for their phones. CRT response times have their uses which is why they are still being used, but I have yet to hear anything about a cellphone display being too slow.

Games and video are the big reasons why CRTs are still popular for desktops. If phones are going to continue to push into those fields then response time is going to be a factor.

5. Badly Blurs? Yeah right dude, keep telling yourself that. You're super sensitive to that, but yet blind to Android lag. Maybe if you take off your fanboy goggles you can see better.

"Android lag" varries by large amounts depending on what device you are using. I haven't seen anything that is native to the OS in terms of responsiveness. Unlike most people, I use both OSs on a frequent basis, how about you? I can tell you there are very laggy Andoid phones, but am not so ignorant as to blame it on the OS. I don't blame the iPhone's OS for laginess as I can't tell if it is a hardware or software issue. It also tends to be iOS devices hit their largest lag spikes in different spots then Android devices.

7. Uh you keep ignoring me when I say its better in some aspects, but not vastly.

What percentage better does it have to be to hit vastly to you? The contrast advantage is in the infinite range percentage wise, that isn't vastly better? IPS displays handle colors reasonably well, although not as well as OLED. So IPS panels have one area they aren't terrible in, and that makes them a good display? There is a big difference between the lesser of two evils and good.

9. What can I say, I'm not a fanboy like yourself.

So what Android phones do you currently own, and how many OLED displays do you own? I base my perspective on comparing devices I use on a daily basis.

 

[MrX8503]

1. 300dpi tends to be the minimum for magazine print, newspapers tend to be a decent amount lower.

2. My point was that given a choice between a display with higher resolution or a display with much better contrast and speed the majority of AV enthusiasts will take the resolution hit as long as it isn't severe. Telling the difference between 720p and 1080p with a decent source is very easy even from a reasonable distance, but the difference in contrast and speed is easier to see from an even greater distance.

3. When your option is a car that can go 5mph versus one that can go 2500mph the utility difference is quite large. Sure, you may never need to utilize the upper limits of what it can do, but 5mph on the highway certainly isn't going to get it done.

4. Games and video are the big reasons why CRTs are still popular for desktops. If phones are going to continue to push into those fields then response time is going to be a factor.

5. "Android lag" varries by large amounts depending on what device you are using. I haven't seen anything that is native to the OS in terms of responsiveness. Unlike most people, I use both OSs on a frequent basis, how about you? I can tell you there are very laggy Andoid phones, but am not so ignorant as to blame it on the OS. I don't blame the iPhone's OS for laginess as I can't tell if it is a hardware or software issue. It also tends to be iOS devices hit their largest lag spikes in different spots then Android devices.

6. What percentage better does it have to be to hit vastly to you? The contrast advantage is in the infinite range percentage wise, that isn't vastly better? IPS displays handle colors reasonably well, although not as well as OLED. So IPS panels have one area they aren't terrible in, and that makes them a good display? There is a big difference between the lesser of two evils and good.

7. So what Android phones do you currently own, and how many OLED displays do you own? I base my perspective on comparing devices I use on a daily basis.

1. Just stop. Newspaper uses the lowest grade paper, of course its not using 300dpi. You're reaching here.

2. I'm still not quite sure what your point is as it has morphed into Frankenstein. Anyway, I think there are many factors AV enthusiasts would be concerned with.

3. Bad analogy. Its more like the iPhone is going 80mph on the highway while an OLED has a top speed of 5000mph. Having that top speed has no utility.

4. I know why CRT's are being used and I'll say it again, those speeds aren't required on a phone. Even as an iPhone user I don't expect to be playing Modern Warfare on it.

5. I never blamed the Android OS for its lagginess, I merely stated that Android phones in general has more lag. Where the lag is coming from is up for another debate. I just think its funny that you're super sensitive to display response difference between IPS vs OLED, but yet you're blind to Android Phone lag. You think DroidX, EVO 4G, Droid 2 is fast? Think again, they are laggy as hell. Galaxy line is the only exception.

6. Vastly superior is when there is a considerable difference in the real world. In this case of IPS vs OLED, its not vastly superior. Now if it were OLED vs TN then I would agree with you.

7. I only own 1 phone at a time. I owned an EVO 4G and now I have an iPhone4. I also work on desktop IPS displays.

I can see where your loyalties lie, so there is no point. Especially since this thread isn't even about ips vs oled.

 

[BenSkywalker]

1. Just stop. Newspaper uses the lowest grade paper, of course its not using 300dpi. You're reaching here.

1. Never said 300dpi was the pinnacle, just that, this is the minimum for print.

5. I never blamed the Android OS for its lagginess,

You're super sensitive to that, but yet blind to Android lag.

If you're so sensitive to response time I'm surprised you put up with the lagginess of Android.

You can argue with yourself on those points, backpedaling/hypocrisy/FUD, whatever you want to call it, not really my game

2. I'm still not quite sure what your point is as it has morphed into Frankenstein. Anyway, I think there are many factors AV enthusiasts would be concerned with.

My point is simple, IPS is *VASTLY* inferior to OLED. In no uncertain terms.

4. I know why CRT's are being used and I'll say it again, those speeds aren't required on a phone.

If a phone does not use scrolling animations, does not play any games at all, does not play any video at all and only ever displays static images I would agree with you. IPS is good enough for a 2001 dumb phone I guess, still not ideal as its' contrast is still terrible, but for a nine year old dumb phone I guess it would be tollerable.

I just think its funny that you're super sensitive to display response difference between IPS vs OLED, but yet you're blind to Android Phone lag.

You did it again in a post you said you didn't do it, its' downright comical seeing you post

You think DroidX, EVO 4G, Droid 2 is fast? Think again, they are laggy as hell. Galaxy line is the only exception.

Which of those phones are you currently using? I can't speak for the the Droid2, haven't had one of those in my posession for a few weeks to make anything resembling an informed perspective, the others I have. The iPhone loses at least as often as it bests them. Is there lag scrolling through menus sometimes? Yep. Does that bother me as much as starting at a menu screen for five seconds waiting for it to respond, or waiting three seconds for the keyboard to pop up in a field? Nope. Either way, they are better with an OLED screen then IPS.

6. Vastly superior is when there is a considerable difference in the real world.

Even if we take into account you can't see the 500x difference in speed, what about the contrast difference? You keep ignoring this as no matter how bad your vision it, it is almost impossible to believe anyone could not notice the huge difference in contrast between the display types.

7. I only own 1 phone at a time.

I see where your loyalties lie. I spend time learning about devices first hand before cutting them up.

Especially since this thread isn't even about ips vs oled.

You brought it up. I stepped in to correct the FUD.

 

[MrX8503]

1. You can argue with yourself on those points, backpedaling/hypocrisy/FUD, whatever you want to call it, not really my game

2. My point is simple, IPS is *VASTLY* inferior to OLED. In no uncertain terms.

3. If a phone does not use scrolling animations, does not play any games at all, does not play any video at all and only ever displays static images I would agree with you. IPS is good enough for a 2001 dumb phone I guess, still not ideal as its' contrast is still terrible, but for a nine year old dumb phone I guess it would be tollerable.

4. You did it again in a post you said you didn't do it, its' downright comical seeing you post


5. Which of those phones are you currently using? I can't speak for the the Droid2, haven't had one of those in my posession for a few weeks to make anything resembling an informed perspective, the others I have. The iPhone loses at least as often as it bests them. Is there lag scrolling through menus sometimes? Yep. Does that bother me as much as starting at a menu screen for five seconds waiting for it to respond, or waiting three seconds for the keyboard to pop up in a field? Nope. Either way, they are better with an OLED screen then IPS.

6. Even if we take into account you can't see the 500x difference in speed, what about the contrast difference? You keep ignoring this as no matter how bad your vision it, it is almost impossible to believe anyone could not notice the huge difference in contrast between the display types.

7. I see where your loyalties lie. I spend time learning about devices first hand before cutting them up.

8. You brought it up. I stepped in to correct the FUD.

1. To cut costs, newspapers cannot have 300dpi, but everything else can. I can see you're lack of knowledge of print. Thanks for playing.

2. I think its better in some areas, but not vastly better. Also one of your points is that if you can see RD you can see OLED, which is not entirely true.

3. What dumb phone from 2001 has an IPS display? Read up over at HardOCP and know what a CRT is really for before pushing your ideas on other people on why a cell phone needs high response time. You keep pressing that a phone needs this just because OLEDs have a higher response time.

4. ...And you did it again, avoiding the question. You're super sensitive to milliseconds of response time yet blind to see Android phone lag. Now that is comical. Besides I was referring to "Android" being laggy as in the phones as a whole. I never said what causes the lag whether its software/hardware, thanks for taking things out of context for your benefit.

5. As I've said before, I can only use one phone at a time. I owned an EVO 4G (which you completely ignored), my friend owns a Droid X, a friend owns the original Droid, and I don't know anyone that owns a Droid2 yet. Guess what, all of those Android phones are laggy as shit. But! Apparently you have this super vision that can see milliseconds but blind to seconds of UI lag.

6. I have not been avoiding the contrast because I've already addressed it in previous posts. High contrast doesn't mean its a better display. From what I've seen so far from OLED phones, it exhibits oversaturation, untrue colors, and whites that have a blue tint.

7. So I have loyalties when I can only afford to own 1 smartphone at a time? You're not making any sense. Also don't pretend to be impartial when you're not. What phones have you owned? All Android?

8. Another user did and I said IPS displays are just as good. I'm basing this off of reviews that I've read of SAMOLED and IPS.

 

[TheStu]

You guys are keeping it clean, and civil, which is good. But you are kind of going in circles here I think.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Read up over at HardOCP and know what a CRT is really for before pushing your ideas on other people on why a cell phone needs high response time.

Wow, you are serious. If you have been educated about display technology reading Kyle's forums, not much point continuing this conversation.

 

[zerocool84]

You guys are keeping it clean, and civil, which is good. But you are kind of going in circles here I think.

Yea they are but hey, they're keeping the dream alive.

 

[TheStu]

Yea they are but hey, they're keeping the dream alive.

Want I should print this thing out in poster form? Hang it on an office wall somewhere as an inspirational thing?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

5. As I've said before, I can only use one phone at a time. I owned an EVO 4G (which you completely ignored), my friend owns a Droid X, a friend owns the original Droid, and I don't know anyone that owns a Droid2 yet. Guess what, all of those Android phones are laggy as shit. But! Apparently you have this super vision that can see milliseconds but blind to seconds of UI lag.

Android lag is terrible. I remember the Droid 1 on Froyo 2.2 video when it first came out. i was like WTF lag.

Then I installed 2.2 on my Milestone and in doing so you go back to 550mhz stock, and I almost cried.

Was the 3GS ever this bad? Nope. Heck even the iPod Touch 2G was very smooth with its ARM11 processor. Argue what you may want that those iPhones had lower resolution, but whatever.

Yes i know lot sof Droid users clock to 1ghz and also use better launcher replacements like Launcher Pro, but it's without a doubt that you can still see hiccups here and there even though things are much better.

Quite honestly even basic UI issues like this is a bit bad. HTC does a fine job using Sense and making sure the UI is smooth, but when everyone talks about Vanilla Android, I just think of how shitty choppy even the homescreens are.... even on a Nexus One.

I know this is why many of my friends are turned off by Android. It may be a shallow assessment and a bad reason to avoid Android, but a lot of times when they use my phone they complain that:

1) why is my home screen not as smooth
2) why is the browser so subpar (I use both Dolphin Browser HD and xScope).
3) Pinch zoom on Google maps triggers weird responses at times (I posted this once, and go look at XDA Developers. It happens on many phones).

It's just kinda embarrassing basic shit isn't fixed. But I guess you could say WTF to Apple regarding proximity sensor issues.

Wow, you are serious. If you have been educated about display technology reading Kyle's forums, not much point continuing this conversation.

Quite honestly, Kyle isn't all that there is on the forums. If you read the forums, many members are VERY educated regarding display technology. I've never seen a group of people more anal about banding and backlight bleeding and sending back 4 Dell 2707s before being satisfied. I'm quite turned off by the general stupidity of members on this forum regarding technical issues. Many questions are simply like "what CPU should I get" or "is my 350W psu enough." Come on. There's a lot of informative stuff on hardforums and a lot of the members are hardcore. I typically read XtremeSystems and HardForums when I have questions about hardware setups and tweaking. It's just a higher level of technical expertise, sorry AT.

 

[zerocool84]

Android lag is terrible. I remember the Droid 1 on Froyo 2.2 video when it first came out. i was like WTF lag.

Then I installed 2.2 on my Milestone and in doing so you go back to 550mhz stock, and I almost cried.

Was the 3GS ever this bad? Nope. Heck even the iPod Touch 2G was very smooth with its ARM11 processor. Argue what you may want that those iPhones had lower resolution, but whatever.

Yes i know lot sof Droid users clock to 1ghz and also use better launcher replacements like Launcher Pro, but it's without a doubt that you can still see hiccups here and there even though things are much better.

Quite honestly even basic UI issues like this is a bit bad. HTC does a fine job using Sense and making sure the UI is smooth, but when everyone talks about Vanilla Android, I just think of how shitty choppy even the homescreens are.... even on a Nexus One.

I know this is why many of my friends are turned off by Android. It may be a shallow assessment and a bad reason to avoid Android, but a lot of times when they use my phone they complain that:

1) why is my home screen not as smooth
2) why is the browser so subpar (I use both Dolphin Browser HD and xScope).
3) Pinch zoom on Google maps triggers weird responses at times (I posted this once, and go look at XDA Developers. It happens on many phones).

It's just kinda embarrassing basic shit isn't fixed. But I guess you could say WTF to Apple regarding proximity sensor issues.

Everyone knows that and it's just a simple matter of OS optimization. When you make something that has to support a wide range of hardware, it suffers in that area. Same thing with Windows vs OSX. Locking down the hardware/software makes it easier to optimize every part of the OS but you give up many things for that as we all know. Google updates Android a lot so they're getting better at it and faster phones are helping as well.

Every phone has issues. iPhone has tons of issues and Android phones have tons of issues. It's nothing new.

 

[MrX8503]

Desktop OSs are actually pretty speedy.

As for Android lag, I believe Google is addressing that in Gingerbread. I just don't understand how people think Android in its current state is "smooth"

 

[zerocool84]

Desktop OSs are actually pretty speedy.

They're speedy because our hardware power has provided that for us.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

They're speedy because our hardware power has provided that for us.

And? 1ghz processors are DAMN powerful on a smartphone. If the iPhone could do it with an old ARM11 processor, why can't Android?

Remember what kind of flak Microsoft got for releasing Vista? The system requirements quadrupled or something. Even 1gb was barely manageable on it.

Forward to Win 7. Compared to SP2 it's not that much different. However system requirements are roughly the same. Maybe Win7 can run on slightly lower hardware, but with the advancements in hardware in the 3 years since Vista, things kinda worked out for MS.

Well this is the point I'm making here regarding Android. I'm glad they will make adjustments in Gingerbread, but IMO it took too long. Even the hardware advancements we've seen since the early days of Android ON TOP of the custom launchers people have made that easily double or triple if not offer an even greater increase in speed of the basic UI is still not enough.

 

[zerocool84]

And? 1ghz processors are DAMN powerful on a smartphone. If the iPhone could do it with an old ARM11 processor, why can't Android?

I've already said, OS optimization. Apple controlling EVERY aspect of the phone allows them to optimize it easier and better. Not running background services etc allowed them to do it with slower processors.

 

[AkumaX]

Print is 300dpi, so its not overkill. Also just because it was easier for them to scale from 480x320 doesn't mean they were trying to trick the consumer. It was a smart move on Apple's part to decrease fragmentation.

This is why I believe the iPhone5, if it has a 4" screen, will sport the iPad's resolution at 1024x768, which would still keep the phone at ~326dpi. If such a screen exists in the future, trust me, people will be drooling.

It's not gonna happen, it's going to break too much stuff (or make things look awkward)

The original iPhone/iPod had a 3:2 ratio (480x320), and still has it in the iPhone4/iPod4 (960x640). All their games/apps are backwards compatible, they just have to scale up exactly 4x.

Have you tried an iPhone app on the iPad? It's 1024x768 = 4:3. When you do the zooming in, there are wasted black borders on the top and bottom.

Whatever the new resolution is going to be, it would still have to be backwards compatible w/ 3:2.

 

[coolVariable]

I've already said, OS optimization. Apple controlling EVERY aspect of the phone allows them to optimize it easier and better. Not running background services etc allowed them to do it with slower processors.

Considering all the other bugs in android, I would not be surprised if the OS could be 100x faster than it is now, if somebody just tweaked it a little.

Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think ANY android phone even uses the GPU to render the GUI.