How and why the right lies about Social Security - and the media repeat it

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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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People don't think so.

As was stated earlier, Obama has folded to the Republicans faster than Superman on laundry day.

And that fault lies where? With the GOP?

Regardless, he was handed the most shitty situation since the 1930's.

I strongly disagree. FDR had a far far shittier environment when he came into office all things considered.

Has he handled it very well? Probably not but what he has done is mostly continue the policies of the previous administration in tax cuts and the like and did increase spending, just as the last administration was doing at the very end.

And again, where does the fault lie here? With the GOP?

Regardless, he'll get the blame most likely and we'll start over with the same end results. A crumbling foundation of offshoring and removing decent jobs from the lower/middle classes and without them, you'll never get out of this mess.

As he should.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Yes, watched the Video.

Thanks.

Up until the Wisconsin fiasco I had never heard of the Koch Brothers. Apparently they were responsible for what happened in Wisconsin and now the people of the state are trying to get the state back from them.

I still don't know who they are or where they came from.

They're the sons of one of the co-founders of the John Birch Society, from whom they got a pretty warped ideology, and inherited a massive company, which is the second largest privately held company in the US; their combined wealth is third behind Gates and Buffet. They have a far-right libertarian sort of ideology, aligned with wanting to dismantle as much government and regulation as possible - allowing them to pollute and do other profitable things more freely, now getting a huge number of violations again IIRC.

Their tentacles go far beyond Wisconsin, being leading right-wing tycoons with ties to all kinds of right-wing political projects and organizations. Wisconsin is a tiny part, but they were Scott Walker's top donors, so it's no surprise he took their call when he was tricked by an activist. They've sponsored the tea party - events, busses, and much more - and worked their 'destroy the EPA' type agenda into the Tea Party platform.

Since they appear to be so anti-American how come Americans have not run them out of the country yet?

We don't 'run people out of the country' for being sponsors of evil, but it a failing of our society not to have put limits around their ability to buy our government and politics.

As the New Yorker said:

The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama

The Kochs are longtime libertarians who believe in drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation. These views dovetail with the brothers’ corporate interests. In a study released this spring, the University of Massachusetts at Amherst’s Political Economy Research Institute named Koch Industries one of the top ten air polluters in the United States. And Greenpeace issued a report identifying the company as a “kingpin of climate science denial.” The report showed that, from 2005 to 2008, the Kochs vastly outdid ExxonMobil in giving money to organizations fighting legislation related to climate change, underwriting a huge network of foundations, think tanks, and political front groups. Indeed, the brothers have funded opposition campaigns against so many Obama Administration policies—from health-care reform to the economic-stimulus program—that, in political circles, their ideological network is known as the Kochtopus...

Charles Lewis, the founder of the Center for Public Integrity, a nonpartisan watchdog group, said, “The Kochs are on a whole different level. There’s no one else who has spent this much money. The sheer dimension of it is what sets them apart. They have a pattern of lawbreaking, political manipulation, and obfuscation. I’ve been in Washington since Watergate, and I’ve never seen anything like it. They are the Standard Oil of our times.”...

The Republican campaign consultant said of the family’s political activities, “To call them under the radar is an understatement. They are underground!” Another former Koch adviser said, “They’re smart. This right-wing, redneck stuff works for them. They see this as a way to get things done without getting dirty themselves.” Rob Stein, a Democratic political strategist who has studied the conservative movement’s finances, said that the Kochs are “at the epicenter of the anti-Obama movement. But it’s not just about Obama. They would have done the same to Hillary Clinton. They did the same with Bill Clinton. They are out to destroy progressivism.”
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Sorry, to be clear, the commentary is partly describing the video and partly my own.

SS will never be "bankrupt". It will not be able to pay 100% if nothing is done - maybe 80%.

But nothing won't be done (that's a tricky phrasing, I should just say but something will be done.) The scare tactics are just for the reasons I mentioned - and are corrupt.

And thanks for watching the video. Any other reaction?

Well it spent way to much time talking about the Koch bros imo but a few comments:

1. Social Security does not have 2.7T in cash laying around. It has intragovernment securities which must be transferred into actual Treasury notes and sold on the open market. At current, especially with the market tanking, that wouldn't be difficult. That might not be the case when we need it though, especially with trillion dollar deficits as far as we can reasonably predict.

2. Means testing goes against the very spirit of the wildly popular and successful program that the Dems single handedly implemented and Reps are trying to dismantle purely for political points. The entire idea was for it to be "social insurance". You paid into it and they promised that you would receive the benefits. Same thing goes with removing the cap unless you also wish to remove the cap on payouts (which is determined by what you paid in)

3. The system was implemented when people might live a few years after they started receiving benefits. We are much healthier now and live much longer due to it. Most people can and do work a few years longer but the system wasn't designed to support people for 20-30 years. OTOH, we don't take care of our parents anymore and a lot of people have careers in fields that their body simply can't take the abuse for another 5-10 years. Not sure what to do about this but it is a problem. For the record, I am not about, nor have I ever been about, kicking Granny out in the cold.

4. On the larger topic of entitlements, we must have significant cuts in entitlement spending (along with a host of other things some of which you agree with and some of which you don't along with increasing revenue). The math simply does not lie.

5. Not sure if you realize this or not but the .gov is spending 40% more than it takes in. The truly wealthy like this a lot. Who do you think most of that money eventually goes to? Its not like people just stick it in a mattress. No, they shop at wallyworld, but gas, pay mortgages, etc... Deficit spending helps the rich just as much as it does the poor, probably more. The rich get richer because of it and the poor just tread water.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Yeah, I think it hilarious how the repubs have been doing every single thing possible to wreck anything the Dems have been doing toward fixing the mess the repubs made and then have the gall to deny any culpability whatsoever toward the stagnant state of affairs we find ourselves in whilst attributing all the damage they've caused on Obama.

Cute.

That was the plan all along. It's worked well for them before.

If you look back at Clinton, they tried to create huge dissatisfaction among voters - remember a lot lot of bumper stickers of terror of the federal government, 'men in black helicoptors' and all the rest - the impeachment, the shutdown, accusations the administration was traitorous, criminal, murderous, corrupt, liars - and look at 2000.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
NO Moodys doesn't like the divided gridlock that is our government which is incapable of acting in the best interests of the country. Any plan Obama puts forward only galvanizes those who oppose him at all costs.
If anyone is to blame for the shape we are in it is the severly divided electorate that elected Obama in 2008 then turned around and put the republicans in control of the house in 2010.

Wrong. Moody's view is the same as why S&P downgraded us.

Standard & Poor's announced that it had lowered the United States' long-term credit rating to AA-plus. The ratings agency cited political risks and a rising debt burden for its decision.
"The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics,"

Its all about debt.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Its all about debt.

I listened to the S&P guy and it's about debt but it's also about the complete lack of bi-partisanship in DC...The below was also in the statement reason to downgrade.

"More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011,"
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Well it spent way to much time talking about the Koch bros imo but a few comments:

Thanks for watching it. That's a fair comment, but not one that really is too bad about it.

1. Social Security does not have 2.7T in cash laying around. It has intragovernment securities which must be transferred into actual Treasury notes and sold on the open market. At current, especially with the market tanking, that wouldn't be difficult. That might not be the case when we need it though, especially with trillion dollar deficits as far as we can reasonably predict.

The point is, though, that's not a Social Security problem; that's a government problem, of having borrowed every dollar fro the trust fund, because it's politically beneficial.

Cutting Social Security benefits to pay for the government's other spending is backwards.

2. Means testing goes against the very spirit of the wildly popular and successful program that the Dems single handedly implemented and Reps are trying to dismantle purely for political points. The entire idea was for it to be "social insurance". You paid into it and they promised that you would receive the benefits. Same thing goes with removing the cap unless you also wish to remove the cap on payouts (which is determined by what you paid in)

You're right. But look at the larger picture - the wealthy have had decades of shifting wealth from the rest of society to themselves, so the wealthiest 1% have gone from 10% to over 20% of income, they own 40% of all wealth, they have taken practically all of the economy's growth that doubled its size after inflation - so it's very important we reverse some of that for the benefit of the country. If the politically practical way to do that is to do some tiny bit of shift back with tis change, it's a good idea.

This just some 'fairness' question like everything is fair before we do it. We're in a hugely unfair situation in their favor.

As I understand it, it's a temporary measure to get past the baby boomer bubble.

I'm ok with the 'impurity' of shifting a tiny bit of wealth back, after they've shifted far more.

3. The system was implemented when people might live a few years after they started receiving benefits. We are much healthier now and live much longer due to it. Most people can and do work a few years longer but the system wasn't designed to support people for 20-30 years. OTOH, we don't take care of our parents anymore and a lot of people have careers in fields that their body simply can't take the abuse for another 5-10 years. Not sure what to do about this but it is a problem. For the record, I am not about, nor have I ever been about, kicking Granny out in the cold.

While it 'wasn't designed to', it can and should. It can for decades without change, and after that with relatively small changes.

4. On the larger topic of entitlements, we must have significant cuts in entitlement spending (along with a host of other things some of which you agree with and some of which you don't along with increasing revenue). The math simply does not lie.

The question is how. 'Medicare for All' would provide both massive savings AND massive benefits, by putting the huge waste of our private insurance system to use for the public.

Harry and Louise are unfortunately convincing to too many Americans we should continue to throw away trillions to benefit a few wealthy interests.

5. Not sure if you realize this or not but the .gov is spending 40% more than it takes in.

I am. Other than the short-term recovery policies, that needs to change.

The truly wealthy like this a lot. Who do you think most of that money eventually goes to? Its not like people just stick it in a mattress. No, they shop at wallyworld, but gas, pay mortgages, etc... Deficit spending helps the rich just as much as it does the poor, probably more. The rich get richer because of it and the poor just tread water.

It's not that simple. The truly wealthy like parts of it a lot, but they like really slashing it, and slashing the American people's wealth, so they own an even larger share, even more.

The wealthy can be very short-sighted in demanding 'more now' from society over a long-term stronger economy. Companies want OTHER companies to hire creating consumers for their products, but to hire as little as possible themselves. People forget that business was finally asking FDR to implement many of his policies as they came to better recognize the need for a stronger economy. They just wanted their competitors blocked from doing wrong too, which meant regulation.

FDR was actually passing a lot of his liberal policies as compromise measures to avoid more liberal measures the then-strong socialist movement wanted.

The cycles of high and low inflation, boom and bust, are more complicated about how they can redistribute wealth to the top. The wealthy are now hoarding cash - and if the rest of the economy crashes and assets become cheap, that cash will allow buying up a ton more wealth, which is what happened in the Great Depression. One wealthy man who did this said, 'I can buy companies more cheaply than their products'.

While I say it's complicated, just watch the bottom line of the distribution of wealth. Is it stable, or shifting towards or away from the wealthy?

It's had a radical shift to the wealthy for decades.

Look at what the wealthy support - it's 'austerity', not the big spending you mention benefits them - for the public, that is.

People often say 'the economy is based 2/3 on consumers'. That's a statistic that reflects a middle class strong enough to have that large consumer role. It can change.

Anyway, did you have any other comments about the video? It was about the propaganda for the public.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
I listened to the S&P guy and it's about debt but it's also about the complete lack of bi-partisanship in DC...The below was also in the statement reason to downgrade.

"More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011,"
They are upset that there is lack of bi-partisanship in CUTTING the debt.

They want us to get control of our entitlements before they kill us.

They look at our ballooning debt and our long term obligations and are worried that we will not be able to cover all our debt.

Again, it is ALL about the debt and the fact that we have TOO much of it.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
They want us to get control of our entitlements before they kill us.


That's not what they said at all. They're concerned about the lack of balance between revenues & expenditures which has been created largely by repub tax cutting over the years, particularly the Bush tax cuts for America's wealthiest. I linked the comments of John Chambers, head of the S&P sovereign debt division, over in the debt downgrade thread-

John Chambers, the head of sovereign ratings at S&P, told CNN's Anderson Cooper that the political brinkmanship over the debt ceiling proved to be a key issue, with "the U.S. government getting to the last day before they had cash-management problems."

Few governments separate the budget process from the debt-authorization process as the United States does, he noted.

And, though the budget deal that finally was reached will deliver at least $2.1 trillion in savings over the next decade, that will not suffice, he said. "It's going to be difficult to get beyond that -- at least in the near term -- and you do need to get beyond that to get to a point where the debt-to-GDP ratio is going to stabilize."

Asked who was to blame, Chambers said, "This is a problem that's been a long time in the making -- well over this administration, the prior administration."

Congress should shoulder some of the blame, he said. "The first thing it could have done is to have raised the debt ceiling in a timely manner so that much of this debate had been avoided to begin with, as it had done 60 or 70 times since 1960 without that much debate."

Chambers added that his agency's decision is likely to have a long-term impact. "Once you lose your AAA, it doesn't usually bounce back," he said.

He pointed to the decision by Congress about whether to extend the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts as one crucial area. "If you let them lapse for the high-income earners, that could give you another $950 billion," he said.

They don't give a damn how much we spend or how we spend it- they just want better balance, and even suggest *raising taxes* on America's wealthiest to achieve that. The Horror!
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Right! :biggrin:

If congress hadn't conducted an 8 month pissing contest repeatedly showing their asses, and had just uncerimoniously raised the debt limit like they have done in the past there would have been no downgrade.
You are an idiot!!

It has been clear for months that S&P wanted a $4 trillion reduction in future debt.
We gave them $2 trillion.

If we had done what we had done in the past they STILL would have dropped our rating.

NYTimes:
S.& P. had prepared investors for the downgrade announcement with a series of warnings earlier this year that it would act if Congress did not agree to increase the government’s borrowing limit and adopt a long-term plan for reducing its debts by at least $4 trillion over the next decade.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ser...lobwhere=1243942957443&blobheadervalue3=UTF-8
The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if we see that less reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government debt trajectory than we currently assume in our base case.
Standard & Poor's takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures that Congress and the Administration might conclude is appropriate for putting the U.S.'s finances on a sustainable footing...
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
They don't give a damn how much we spend or how we spend it- they just want better balance, and even suggest *raising taxes* on America's wealthiest to achieve that. The Horror!
They want less debt.

We can raise taxes or cut spending, they don't care which one, but they want LESS debt.

Obama and the Democrats wanted MORE debt. They wanted a CLEAN bill with no debt reduction.

If the GOP wasn't in control of the house they would have gotten their clean bill and we still would have been down graded.

That is the point that all you leftists are missing.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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In writing for you fools. S&P wanted $4 trillion in cuts. We gave them half that and we had to fight tooth and nail to get to that point.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245315237257
We expect the debt trajectory to continue increasing in the medium term if a
medium-term fiscal consolidation plan of $4 trillion is not agreed upon. If
Congress and the Administration reach an agreement of about $4 trillion, and
if we to conclude that such an agreement would be enacted and maintained
throughout the decade, we could, other things unchanged, affirm the 'AAA'
long-term rating and A-1+ short-term ratings on the U.S.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
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In writing for you fools. S&P wanted $4 trillion in cuts. We gave them half that and we had to fight tooth and nail to get to that point.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245315237257

Err...

Since we revised the outlook on our 'AAA' long-term rating to negative
from stable on April 18, 2011, the political debate about the U.S.'
fiscal stance and the related issue of the U.S. government debt ceiling
has, in our view, only become more entangled. Despite months of
negotiations, the two sides remain at odds on fundamental fiscal policy
issues. Consequently, we believe there is an increasing risk of a
substantial policy stalemate enduring beyond any near-term agreement to
raise the debt ceiling.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
199
106
Obama and the Democrats wanted MORE debt. They wanted a CLEAN bill with no debt reduction.

One shouldn't be linked to the other. Democrats DID want less debt, they wanted it through increased revenue AND less spending. But since they talked about tax increases the republicans rejected it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
They want less debt.

We can raise taxes or cut spending, they don't care which one, but they want LESS debt.

Obama and the Democrats wanted MORE debt. They wanted a CLEAN bill with no debt reduction.

If the GOP wasn't in control of the house they would have gotten their clean bill and we still would have been down graded.

That is the point that all you leftists are missing.

Such a shill you are! And a shameless one at that- whoring for the repubs as always, jumping for thread to thread to spread the same disinformation-

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...on-deficit-reduction-in-12-years-or-less.html
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Such a shill you are! And a shameless one at that- whoring for the repubs as always, jumping for thread to thread to spread the same disinformation-

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...on-deficit-reduction-in-12-years-or-less.html

Such a shill you are! And a shameless one at that- whoring for the democrats as always, jumping for (sic) thread to thread to spread the same disinformation-

lol linking an article from 4 months ago! And guess who never delivered Obama's wishes....Democrats AND Republicans. And as we all know, Obama has said ALOT of things he never delivered on.

Get it ya fuckin moron? It's BOTH parties who failed.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Such a shill you are! And a shameless one at that- whoring for the democrats as always, jumping for (sic) thread to thread to spread the same disinformation-

lol linking an article from 4 months ago! And guess who never delivered Obama's wishes....Democrats AND Republicans. And as we all know, Obama has said ALOT of things he never delivered on.

Get it ya fuckin moron? It's BOTH parties who failed.

Obama was the advocate of the big deal, the "let's solve the problem while we have a chance deal" all along, and was thwarted, forced to make a lesser deal to avoid default. If you think this downgrade was bad, default would have been worse, much worse.

Yeh, I linked an article from 4 months ago, when the negotiations began, when Obama still thought he was dealing with rational people who had the best interests of the country at heart. He was wrong, of course, and should have figured that out long ago -

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/18/995602/-Middle-Man-and-the-Debt-Ceiling-Debacle?via=blog_1-
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
SS will never be "bankrupt". It will not be able to pay 100% if nothing is done - maybe 80%.

uh, that is bankrupt.

bank·rupt
   [bangk-ruhpt, -ruhpt] Show IPA
noun
1.
Law . a person who upon his or her own petition or that of his or her creditors is adjudged insolvent by a court and whose property is administered for and divided among his or her creditors under a bankruptcy law.
2.
any insolvent debtor; a person unable to satisfy any just claims made upon him or her.
3.
a person who is lacking in a particular thing or quality: a moral bankrupt.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Obama was the advocate of the big deal, the "let's solve the problem while we have a chance deal" all along, and was thwarted, forced to make a lesser deal to avoid default. If you think this downgrade was bad, default would have been worse, much worse.

Yeh, I linked an article from 4 months ago, when the negotiations began, when Obama still thought he was dealing with rational people who had the best interests of the country at heart. He was wrong, of course, and should have figured that out long ago -

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/18/995602/-Middle-Man-and-the-Debt-Ceiling-Debacle?via=blog_1-

I agree that Obama was trying to spur non partisan cooperation. That wasnt my point.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
The agenda for this is at least threefold:

- Simple politics: the Democrats created it and get credit, so destroy it to reduce their support. This is the 'Democrats invent free energy, so destroy the info' school of politics.

- Reducing the wealth of the public makes the wealth of the rich more valuable. This is basic 'concentration of wealth' agenda. Money not spent on them, can go to the rich.

- Privatization would create many, many billions of dollars of profit in fees for administering Social Security, while putting the retirement funds of Americans worth trillions into the hands of Wall Street to invest and leverage - fueling the bubble of the day, more than they already can with their massive resources, including the other retirement money, 401(k) and pensions. Wall Street is willing to spend to lobby for that.

Liberal lies. The first part is so rediculous it doesn't even deserve a comment. The second one doesn't even make sense. And the third is somewhat true. There is profit available and you can only assume Wallstreet would screw up SS more than the Government already has.

Oh, and BTW, it was the Republicans that brought attention to the trouble SS was going to be facing. Democrats just wanted to keep kicking the can down the road.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
uh, that is bankrupt.

No, it's not.

First, it's not going to happen.

Second, the scare mongers use phrases like 'you won't see a penny from it'.

Third, Social Security doesn't have any fixed amount it's 'guaranteed' to pay, in a 'just claim'.

People equate 'bankrupt' with 'you won't see any money from it'. Even 80% is far from that.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Thanks for watching it. That's a fair comment, but not one that really is too bad about it.

Shrug, I don't know much about the Koch brothers and I don't really give a shit about finding more out. Only so much time in a day and there are far more pressing people/entities who are screwing us far worse right now.

The point is, though, that's not a Social Security problem; that's a government problem, of having borrowed every dollar fro the trust fund, because it's politically beneficial.

Cutting Social Security benefits to pay for the government's other spending is backwards.

First of all it doesn't matter whose problem it is, the fact is it is a problem. Saying that social security has 2.7T is misleading at best. It does not, we spent that money on other shit. Its gone, poof, buh bye, nada, etc.... It is filled with non-marketable IOUs which means that we have to sell real treasury notes in order to repay the so called trust fund. If there is an appetite for those bonds at reasonable rates then so be it as it doesn't really effect our "debt" (its already counted towards our debt ceiling). It does however prevent us from playing accounting games with the debt such as when/how we pay the interest owed.

You're right. But look at the larger picture - the wealthy have had decades of shifting wealth from the rest of society to themselves, so the wealthiest 1% have gone from 10% to over 20% of income, they own 40% of all wealth, they have taken practically all of the economy's growth that doubled its size after inflation - so it's very important we reverse some of that for the benefit of the country. If the politically practical way to do that is to do some tiny bit of shift back with tis change, it's a good idea.

Shrug, I don't care either way. Something must be done that is sure but I think you are playing a very dangerous game when your side starts destroying the "intent" of the program and institutes things like means testing. As I always say, eventually the other side will be in power and it gets real easy to start lowering the standards to qualify. All of a sudden it starts excluding the middle class instead of just those rich bastards. I imagine it would politically be easier to lower the means testing then to raise the retirement age as the means testing would impact FAR fewer people (voters).

As I understand it, it's a temporary measure to get past the baby boomer bubble.

Lol, come on Craig. You know it won't end up being temporary. You are talking about forever changing the intent of Social Security and how it works. I don't care if they claim it will be temporary or not, just like the current money they will plan to spend all of the money in the future too. They won't be able to afford to reverse it.

I'm ok with the 'impurity' of shifting a tiny bit of wealth back, after they've shifted far more.

Ok.... I didn't realize this was about transferring wealth but whatever floats your boat.

The question is how. 'Medicare for All' would provide both massive savings AND massive benefits, by putting the huge waste of our private insurance system to use for the public.

Again I ask, why can't we provide Medicare for all with what we currently spend on Medicare? Correct me if I am wrong but using the per capita spending of other 1st world countries with similar UHC shouldn't just what we currently spend cover us all? If so I am all for it.

Harry and Louise are unfortunately convincing to too many Americans we should continue to throw away trillions to benefit a few wealthy interests.

I am. Other than the short-term recovery policies, that needs to change.

Yet no one has a plausible and politically viable plan to actually do it. See the problem?

It's not that simple. The truly wealthy like parts of it a lot, but they like really slashing it, and slashing the American people's wealth, so they own an even larger share, even more.

The wealthy can be very short-sighted in demanding 'more now' from society over a long-term stronger economy. Companies want OTHER companies to hire creating consumers for their products, but to hire as little as possible themselves. People forget that business was finally asking FDR to implement many of his policies as they came to better recognize the need for a stronger economy. They just wanted their competitors blocked from doing wrong too, which meant regulation.

FDR was actually passing a lot of his liberal policies as compromise measures to avoid more liberal measures the then-strong socialist movement wanted.

I am going to beg to differ on this one. It IS that simple. The .gov is currently providing 12% of GDP with borrowed money. That is money that is not taxed from the economy (largely coming from the rich) BUT that the rich get a very large portion of at the end of the day when it is spent. One thing about the truly wealthy is they are usually very good at math. Getting a slightly larger piece of a pie that is 12% smaller means they get far fewer actual dollars. On top of that they get to turn around and take that money and loan it back to the .gov to keep it safe and make another penny or two. Its a win/win. They have absolutely no reason to want the .gov to stop spending money that they (the rich) are not putting up but are in fact benefiting from in the long run.

Now if we actually balanced the budget you would have a very good point. We ain't gonna do that anytime soon though.

The cycles of high and low inflation, boom and bust, are more complicated about how they can redistribute wealth to the top. The wealthy are now hoarding cash - and if the rest of the economy crashes and assets become cheap, that cash will allow buying up a ton more wealth, which is what happened in the Great Depression. One wealthy man who did this said, 'I can buy companies more cheaply than their products'.

The wealthy didn't get that way by being stupid. Its not a bad idea to horde cash right now. The stock market has been a rather dangerous investment for some time (little upside potential and huge downside risk), the economy sucks ass so who in their right mind wants to expand business to make more stuff that people can't buy, the economy looks like it will suck ass for some time to come, etc...

And for the record, a very large chunk of that "horded cash" has/is being used to fuel our governments deficit spending. Notice the price of treasuries lately?

While I say it's complicated, just watch the bottom line of the distribution of wealth. Is it stable, or shifting towards or away from the wealthy?

It's had a radical shift to the wealthy for decades.

I don't think you should be looking at the "wealthy" persay but certain segments of the economy that have been draining an increasing amount of money from the economy as a whole. One example of that is the banking/finance sector. Ironically the banksters are usually the ones that do really well in the "bust" periods (funny how it seems to be almost the exact same companies time after time isn't it).

Look at what the wealthy support - it's 'austerity', not the big spending you mention benefits them - for the public, that is.

Is there a United Rich Fuckers union or something that is supporting austerity that I am unaware of?

I simply do not see how the math supports that austerity will help the rich bastards. Currently they are not paying for the benefits but they are in fact profiting from them.

Anyway, did you have any other comments about the video? It was about the propaganda for the public.

Shrug, I don't really pay attention to "propaganda". I do my own math if it is a subject that I care about enough. Personally I think that the videos author used a bit of misleading information as well (such as the so called surplus which in reality has been blown already). I really can't grasp why some rich bastards end goal would be to destroy the Federal Government because the Federal Government is making and allowing them to get richer. That is a pretty big claim to make without backing it up with hard evidence (and them supporting studies on select programs or trying to get certain policy changes does not equal destroying the Federal government). Propaganda to battle propaganda isn't a valid tactic in my book but thats just me. Perhaps calling it propaganda is a bit strong but I know for a fact a few things stated are intentionally misleading and a few others don't make much sense when looked at objectively. Of course I could be wrong about the intentions of the Koch brothers so take that as you will.