Housing: 2007 Thread.

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Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Originally posted by: Vic
A little clarification on some of the usual media misinformation. AHM was not a player in the subprime markets (IIRC they didn't even have subprime offerings on their wholesale channels), and not even so much in the Alt-A market. What they were a big player in was the Jumbo markets, i.e. an otherwise Fannie Mae "conforming" loan but with a loan amount that exceeded the conforming limit of (currently) $417,000 (for 1 unit properties in the lower 48).
Jumbo just basically collapsed right into the dust, so if you happen to live in a market where the median value is near or above the $417k limit, well... it ain't gonna be pretty.
I have said here many times that those hyper-inflated markets are the ones that were going to see the greatest amount of suffering. OTOH, those markets with medians well below the Fannie limit, and particularly those below the FHA limits will see the least (and some not at all).

Oh yeah, cant wait for those East Bay homes to come down off the 800K median. F'n ridiculous.


 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: mshan
Wow! Did you just see that Stop Trading segment with Jim Cramer on CNBC?

I know he probably still has some allegiance to other hedge fund managers, but if it's really as bad as he describes...

video is here: http://www.cnbc.com

I like how he's begging the Feds to cut rates to save his buddies. Great idea, cut rates, tank the dollar, save your rich buddies, screw the majority of Americans.

What an asshat.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Hey Vic, looks like you're right about the jumbos.

Melissa Cohn, chief executive of Manhattan Mortgage, a New York mortgage broker. She said Wells Fargo & Co. is charging 8% for a prime jumbo 30-year fixed-rate loan that carried a 6 7/8% rate late last week.

Now that the banks have to take the risk themselves, they're not so excited about doing so.

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Hey Vic, looks like you're right about the jumbos.

Melissa Cohn, chief executive of Manhattan Mortgage, a New York mortgage broker. She said Wells Fargo & Co. is charging 8% for a prime jumbo 30-year fixed-rate loan that carried a 6 7/8% rate late last week.

Now that the banks have to take the risk themselves, they're not so excited about doing so.

It's getting ugly. Wells has even tightened up their prime stuff. I mentioned the Alt-A tightening up above specifically mentioning the jumbos, that could have been the large wallet finance forums, not sure.

Bear got hammered again despite their conference call saying they have ample liquidity. As the call went on their stock kept selling through. Lehman, Bear, BoA, Wach, Barclays are all knee-deep in this crap. Somehow they are hiding the worst of the damage, could be some type of SPV stucture that accountants and lawyers cooked up, we'll see.

The last 3 there should come out pretty well since they are very diversified in other areas, mainly retail banking. However, the big i-banks who are mainly dependent on underwriting, advisory, broker fees are going to be bruised and battered.

AS somebody at work said a few min ago, it's amazing how the last 6 months it was a bunch of rumbling and now the bottom has fallen out.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Interesting how Larry Kudlow isn't claiming today his rigid dogmatic mantra that subprime is contained and the economy is still in Goldilocks (all of his commentary always seems to based from the perspective of a souless corporation).

His guests, including some former Fed govenors, aren't agreeing with his new plea that the Fed publically reiterate it's role as lender of last resort. Everyone else is saying right now this is a necessary repricing of risk and the investment banks, etc. need to come clean on the extent of toxic waste they truly own.

EDIT: one former Fed Governor said the Fed didn't bail out Long Term Capital Management in 1998, but just gave all of these investment banks a room at the Fed to meet and told them to work the problem out themselves. Is this true? http://www.usagold.com/derivativeschapman.html
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
My SRS is up 40% in under 2 months. How about them apples? I keep hearing people say this or that is contained, but it's all baloney. This thing keeps getting bigger and bigger. Even so called prime borrowers would in many cases be well advised to foreclose on a house that is too far underwater, unless they have a lot of equity built up.
Every time real estate index has a small bounce, it gets its legs cut out from underneath it with more bad news.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: mshan
Interesting how Larry Kudlow isn't claiming today his rigid dogmatic mantra that subprime is contained and the economy is still in Goldilocks (all of his commentary always seems to based from the perspective of a souless corporation).

His guests, including some former Fed govenors, aren't agreeing with his new plea that the Fed publically reiterate it's role as lender of last resort. Everyone else is saying right now this is a necessary repricing of risk and the investment banks, etc. need to come clean on the extent of toxic waste they truly own.

EDIT: one former Fed Governor said the Fed didn't bail out Long Term Capital Management in 1998, but just gave all of these investment banks a room at the Fed to meet and told them to work the problem out themselves. Is this true? http://www.usagold.com/derivativeschapman.html

That is true. The problem here is that everybody is wrapped up in this one. Well, almost everybody.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
No story just yet, but the rumors are that Aegis and Novastar both just closed their doors this morning.
Also, I received an e-mail this morning that a major prime lender has stopped taking applications for any 2nd mortgages claiming that no investor is purchasing them.

Way to go, shorters!

And on that note:
How Speculators Exploit Market Fears
by Ben Stein

Posted on Thursday, August 2, 2007, 12:00AM

Here's a fact: The speculators and hedge fund managers who run today's stock market need market volatility in order to make money.

They can't make enough money if the market stays flat or moves only a bit, so they like extreme and unexpected price movements. They especially like sudden, surprise movements down, when they can make money off stocks they borrow and sell -- or, as they say, "sell short."

Money Lust Satisfied

That's what's been happening the past couple of weeks. But it's not interesting to say that the speculators are whipping the market around to satisfy their money lust. So the speculators themselves make up reasons for why the market is fluctuating, flog those reasons to the media, and then profit if some other speculators believe the jive reasons and jump in the way the manipulators want them to.

Supposedly, the market is "correcting" because of worries about the housing slowdown, and also because of fears that the debt markets that support mergers and acquisitions is drying up.

These are interesting theories, and people who don't know a lot about the stock market or the economy might find them beguiling. What follows are a few truths that show how shallow these "reasons" for the stock market moves are.

Housing a Theory

Yes, the housing market has slowed from a spectacular bubble level to a simply pretty good level. Housing sales and starts are now about what they were in 2002, and no one thought we were in a housing depression then.

In any event, housing is only about 5 percent of the economy. If it falls by 15 percent, that would represent a fall-off of about .75 percent. That's not trivial, but it's also not the stuff of which recessions are made.

The fact is that there is no recession. The economy is suffering from a labor shortage, not a surplus of unemployment. The Fed is worried about excess demand, not slack demand.

Corporate profits set new records every day. Whatever's happening in residential sales and building is simply not slowing down the economy. Why should a Boeing or a Merck or a Pfizer have any reaction to housing at all? Because the speculators sell everything they can when nervousness sets in -- and for no other reason.

A Minor Major Mess

Subprime is a mess. But it's a small mess. Subprime mortgages account for roughly 20 percent of mortgages even in the most heavily exposed states. About 20 percent of them are delinquent in some way. That's 4 percent of mortgages.

Of these, maybe half, or 2 percent, will go into foreclosure. There will be roughly 50 percent recovery on sale of these. This is a loss of 1 percent in the mortgage market -- a sum the lenders have already made many times over because of the hefty fees on those deals. In the context of the size of the U.S. financial sector, it's nothing.

And why should a crisis in subprime drive down stocks in Mexico and Thailand? Again, because the speculators seek to create panic to make money by selling short, and they sell short everything.

There's simply no connection between subprime and developed or developing nations' stocks. This by itself shows the thin context of the selling wave late last month.

Money's Still Cheap

What about the supposed drying up of loans for mergers and acquisitions by private equity firms? Well, here's a good, simple test of just how valid that explanation is for stock market moves: The majority of private equity takeovers are financed with junk debt.

If there really were a major shortage of funds for these deals, the interest rate on the junk would skyrocket. Instead, while the rate has risen by about 150 basis points in the past month, the spread between junk and investment grade is now about 290 basis points, according to leading junk analyst Martin Fridson.

This is a lot lower than the year-end average of the spread from 2002 to 2006, and far below the almost 800 basis point spread during a true interest-rate crunch like the one after the tech meltdown in 2000-2002.

So that's phony, too. Interest rates have risen, but not anything like what they've done in real crises. And besides, the Dow fell by about 550 points the week before last, yet not one of the Dow stocks is involved as either acquiror or acquiree in a private equity deal.

In short, money is no longer virtually free the way it was for private equity deals in the past year. But it's not expensive by historical standards, either.

Spreading the Fear

In other words, it's all the speculators trying to panic us so their sell programs will make money. And they'll make money as long as they can spread their panic. When they can't do that any longer, they'll work the long side -- and make up reasons for that, too.

In the meantime, the economy is strong. Profits are great, and interest rates are low and will stay that way. Don't sell. With all the shrieking about the market, it only fell to what it was about five weeks ago -- and we didn't think we were poor then.

So let the speculators shout "fire." As of right now, they're not blowing anything but smoke.

I have said this many times. There is a significant difference between warning of danger and spreading fear. It is one thing to be concerned about the future but quite another thing to actively want the worst to happen so that you can be proven right. Any single cow could rightly claim it didn't start the stampede, but then where did the stampede start?
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Hi Legend Killer:

What do you think of this commentary?:


"I would submit you are now seeing the unwinding of the [carry] trade slowly but, this could speed up," says one emerging-market money manager, who asked to remain anonymous. "Many more funds, banks, insurance companies, etc., as well as investors in the U.S. and globally, including Japanese housewives," could now become involved.
The source is bullish on yen and gold, but negative on equities. "It would not surprise me to see the U.S. markets down a minimum of 20% by October," he writes. "We see problems and issues and traps."

http://www.thestreet.com/s/asi...gmarkets/10372573.html


EDIT: (second article excerpt added)
"Brokerage firms may not want to make a market in certain securities when they know there are likely more declines. The month-end process of prime brokers marking to market hedge funds' portfolios, filled with derivative securities like credit default swaps and leveraged loans, won't be completed until at least Aug. 15."
http://www.thestreet.com/s/sto...features/10372718.html
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Vic
No story just yet, but the rumors are that Aegis and Novastar both just closed their doors this morning.
Also, I received an e-mail this morning that a major prime lender has stopped taking applications for any 2nd mortgages claiming that no investor is purchasing them.

Way to go, shorters!
Yay!!! We win. Market needs to get to reasonable valuations, banks are smart not to take overvalued homes as collateral.
I have said this many times. There is a significant difference between warning of danger and spreading fear. It is one thing to be concerned about the future but quite another thing to actively want the worst to happen so that you can be proven right. Any single cow could rightly claim it didn't start the stampede, but then where did the stampede start?

Some of us have been warning of this danger for years, even before we started shorting the real estate market. A few of my friends were itching to buy a house last year with ARMs, and I talked them out of it. It wasn't easy to convince young professionals with families who in a sane market should be buying houses, and who were telling me things like "it's just going to keep going up." But now, they are sure happy I did. And I told them about SRS, so they can make some money off of it too. They aren't "scum" they are hard working educated people who actually make good money and should be able to afford a house for their families without putting themselves at financial risk, if it wasn't for the stupid speculators and their financial enablers who bid up this market into the stratosphere where it's financially reckless to buy. The quicker this pyramid scheme folds, the better.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: mshan
Hi Legend Killer:

What do you think of this commentary?:


"I would submit you are now seeing the unwinding of the [carry] trade slowly but, this could speed up," says one emerging-market money manager, who asked to remain anonymous. "Many more funds, banks, insurance companies, etc., as well as investors in the U.S. and globally, including Japanese housewives," could now become involved.
The source is bullish on yen and gold, but negative on equities. "It would not surprise me to see the U.S. markets down a minimum of 20% by October," he writes. "We see problems and issues and traps."

http://www.thestreet.com/s/asi...gmarkets/10372573.html


EDIT: (second article excerpt added)
"Brokerage firms may not want to make a market in certain securities when they know there are likely more declines. The month-end process of prime brokers marking to market hedge funds' portfolios, filled with derivative securities like credit default swaps and leveraged loans, won't be completed until at least Aug. 15."
http://www.thestreet.com/s/sto...features/10372718.html

I don't know enough about the Yen carry trade to comment too much about it. I do know that many people say it's added a lot of profit to the banks, but I do not know how much. It supposedly will also result in a lower valuation of the dollar.

As far as the mbs securities. It's certainly the case, there's a lot of stuff out there that needs to be marked. The truth is in the "marks" at this point. I know that a few banks have been using some accounting gimmickry to reduce the affects of the marks, but it has to go somewhere. I do know that the ABCP market is out of whack. Looking at the spreads, they are trading as wide a they do during the end of the year, when everybody wants out of the market and when all funded conduits need money, so spreads widen, and during the middle of the year when the same happens, we are currently even higher than those very high points. That says that the market is wondering how bad things will get for warehouse lines.

It's an odd market right now, people aren't sure how to bake in risk. After a while the chaff will be sorted from the wheat and things will settle down. However, I think some banks, mortgage companies, and perhaps a few large institutions are in for a very rough ride. There'll be some good buying opportunities in the coming months.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Thanks for your insights!

EDIT: you probably already know this, but there was a report on CNBC today that some hedge funds were created over the weekend to do the same thing that Citadel did to SoWood Capital. They apparently raised a lot of capital, so your company might have competition trying to pick up distressed paper at pennies on the dollar in the coming months.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
Originally posted by: mshan

EDIT: (second article excerpt added)
"Brokerage firms may not want to make a market in certain securities when they know there are likely more declines. The month-end process of prime brokers marking to market hedge funds' portfolios, filled with derivative securities like credit default swaps and leveraged loans, won't be completed until at least Aug. 15."
http://www.thestreet.com/s/sto...features/10372718.html

I used to do this, and it's true, pricing out the derivatives and mortgage backed assets was always a real bitch. Always took at least 2 weeks to cut an NAV. One dirty little secret is that we would frequently use prices from the fund managers. It never seemed like a big deal because the prices seemed very stable. Now this month, **** must be hitting the fan.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
8-21-2007 U.S. Foreclosures Rise Sharply in July - Georgia 1 out of every 299 homes lost

Foreclosure filings rose 9 percent from June to July and surged 93 percent over the same period last year, with Nevada, Georgia and Michigan accounting for the highest foreclosure rates nationwide, a research firm said Tuesday.

In all, 179,599 foreclosure filings were reported during July, up from 92,845 in the year-ago month, according to Irvine-based RealtyTrac Inc.

The national foreclosure rate in July was one filing for every 693 households, the firm said.
====================================================

and just before this implosion the President and the resident Republicans were touting how they were responsible for the highest home ownership in the U.S. ever. :laugh:
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Accredited Home selling $1 billion mortgage loans

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Struggling subprime mortgage lender Accredited Home Lenders Holding Co on Tuesday said it agreed to sell $1 billion of home loans to an unnamed investor, a move it said would limit its exposure to margin calls.

Accredited shares rose as much as 9.8 percent, a day after private equity firm Lone Star Funds asked a Delaware judge for permission to back out of its $400 million agreement to buy the lender.

San Diego-based Accredited said it sold half of the loans last week, and expects to sell the rest by October. It has an option to buy the loans back in November, but that the investor may keep them under most circumstances if it does not.

"If the market improves to a rational level, our intention is to repurchase these quality loans by mid-November and sell or securitize them," Chief Executive James Konrath said.

Accredited on August 11 sued Dallas-based Lone star in Delaware Chancery Court, seeking to force it to complete its buyout, which valued the lender at $15.10 per share. The shares now trade at less than half that level.

Lone Star, in response, said Accredited hasn't met conditions needed to close, and may be entitled by contract only to a $12 million breakup fee.

Accredited shares have lost about three-quarters of their value this year as losses mounted from rising homeowner defaults and credit market conditions tightened.

Accredited shares rose 51 cents to $6.95 in morning trading on the Nasdaq, after earlier rising to $7.07. The stock began the year at $27.35.

(Reporting by Jonathan Stempel)

Shares up 4.5% as of 1:35pm ET

Looks like the MBS market is restarting. Rumor is that the price was terrible, something like 95, but this certainly shows that investors are interested again, and that the market has found a floor.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,036
4,677
126
July 2007, exsiting home sales and price data is in.

More and more people put homes on the market, while the number of homes sold stays at a multi-year low. The result, is that the supply of homes for sale has risen dramatically in the last month. Prices still are about what they were last year (down just 0.6%), but I'm not sure prices can stay high if the supply of homes for sale keeps rising.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86

The typical players said what they needed to. It was interesting that only one person who could be considered on the "other side" (shiller) was included, yet so many RE heavyweights were added in. Naturally Yun, Lareah, and Corcoran took their go-go approach, Yun pulling out that great little bit about "wealth", which is heavily skewed due to several factors, which he forgets to mention (such as "owners" including those who have paid off their house, are older, have greater affluence...etc, all of which skews the data significantly).

Frankly, I think their all full of crap and just want to keep supporting their empires while everybody else crumbles.

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86

The proverbial sh!t hasn't even started to hit the fan. There's plenty more pain coming.

Heck, I was reading a Sun Sentinel article about Orlando having a 2yr supply of condos, Miami having a 3yr supply at 23,000 units, with another 25,000 units being completed in the next year.

It's crap like that that really makes this whole thing seem so ridiculous. When I lived in Orlando I knew things were way out of hand when I saw a Howard Johnson go into condo conversion status.


 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
I am loving this. I don't know why people all of the sudden thought the housing problem was over, but I used that as an opportunity to add to my real estate short position on the cheap.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
It is because, as I predicted, almost no one can get a mortgage right now. So good luck in that bargain hunting you've been looking forward to!
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Vic
It is because, as I predicted, almost no one can get a mortgage right now. So good luck in that bargain hunting you've been looking forward to!

I won't be bargain hunting for the next couple of years at least. I will be shorting real estate. The people bargain hunting now are suckers catching a falling knife.
After that I will be bargain hunting. I will have no problem getting financed if banks are still in business.
My ultrashort position is growing twice as fast as house values are sinking, so my down payment is going to be a pretty good chunk of the price when it's time to buy. Only an idiot wouldn't finance me with 25%-50% down.