Where can I get the residential wiring codes? Is it the NFPA-70 the global one with my state/city amendments tacked on?
K&T wiring "by itself" is not inherently dangerously. I know of some houses that are still running with this wiring and are fine. The problem with this wiring is the common asphalt soaked woven cotton or rubber insulators that are approaching 100 years old in some installs inevitably deteriorate and expose bare wires. The ceramic insulators have a practical unlimited life expectancy though.
The main issue with K&T wiring is the carter wiring system which is now banned. Carter was the defacto system during K&T heyday. K&T believe it or not is still a permitted as a new install in some highly specific constructions but cannot be done with carter wiring system. The problem with carter is that the supply and return wires are often not routed together (not installed as a pair). Troubleshooting this wiring layout requires a detailed electrical diagram and carries a greater risk that some components may stay energized because of the way wires are routed/connected.
I'd rip out any K&T if you intend to reside in a house. Most systems were designed for one or 2 lights in a room, sometimes an entire floor being on one circuit breaker/fuse. K&T systems can't take the demands of modern electrical devices and as mentioned before, don't mix well with insulation. I do know a guy that retained K*T wiring in his garage which was sufficient to power the interior lights and the garage door opener but in the rest of the house, the elec system was upgraded to modern standards
The main issue with K&T wiring is the carter wiring system which is now banned. Carter was the defacto system during K&T heyday. K&T believe it or not is still a permitted as a new install in some highly specific constructions but cannot be done with carter wiring system. The problem with carter is that the supply and return wires are often not routed together (not installed as a pair). Troubleshooting this wiring layout requires a detailed electrical diagram and carries a greater risk that some components may stay energized because of the way wires are routed/connected.
I'd rip out any K&T if you intend to reside in a house. Most systems were designed for one or 2 lights in a room, sometimes an entire floor being on one circuit breaker/fuse. K&T systems can't take the demands of modern electrical devices and as mentioned before, don't mix well with insulation. I do know a guy that retained K*T wiring in his garage which was sufficient to power the interior lights and the garage door opener but in the rest of the house, the elec system was upgraded to modern standards
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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A friend paid over $20000 after all was said and done to rewire a K&T house.
That was fine by them though, since their offer was low. Few prospective buyers wanted to deal with that. Depending on the location and the size of the house, I'd drop the offer by 5-digit $.
BTW, as for insurance, most of the insurance companies they called flat-out refused to insure them. One company agreed, but wanted a premium of 4-digit $. Yes 4-digit $. So, it only made sense to rewire.
That was fine by them though, since their offer was low. Few prospective buyers wanted to deal with that. Depending on the location and the size of the house, I'd drop the offer by 5-digit $.
BTW, as for insurance, most of the insurance companies they called flat-out refused to insure them. One company agreed, but wanted a premium of 4-digit $. Yes 4-digit $. So, it only made sense to rewire.
I've had three old houses with knob and tube wiring. As long as the electrical system is in good condition, there's really nothing wrong with it. I had no problems whatsoever.
Personally, I would have the electrical system inspected by a good licensed electrician. If he says it's good, I would go for it and not look back. Just make sure your smoke detectors are good for peace of mind at night.
Personally, I would have the electrical system inspected by a good licensed electrician. If he says it's good, I would go for it and not look back. Just make sure your smoke detectors are good for peace of mind at night.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Well the houses in this area are basically all going to have K&T unless they were updated since being built. Most homes here are pre 1970, with most being built right after WWII during that boom.
Unfortunately I need grounded outlets. Luckily most of the home is fairly easy to access from the basement, but it's partially finished so it means I would need to rip up some of the ceiling down there.
This home is 100A, which would meet my needs as of today. Especially since it's only me to start, with a potential roommate later on.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
You do have the "knowledge" - unless that Google thing is too difficult. If you have the capability to do what you said you did, you have the ability to install wiring. Meeting code is as simple as a bit of googling to see exactly what you need to do. "Gee, I'm going to rewire my kitchen" - it's not difficult to see where you need GFI outlets (counter), to see that you need a separate circuit for lighting, a separate circuit for a dishwasher, fridge, and garbage disposal (I think the garbage disposal can be on the same circuit as the dishwasher, but that didn't matter for me, since no garbage disposal), etc. A bit of google & some youtube videos, and anyone who can build their own computer from parts should be smart enough to wire their home. Then, there are the tips: NEVER use that backwiring crap where you insert the wires - always screw the wires down. Even though both methods meet code, the former leads to problems down the road too often (you'd find this with a few searches.) The spacing for outlets is very simple to find - and there's nothing in code about having too many outlets. E.g., the spacing is for the minimum number of outlets in a wall. But, even this has very little to do with actual fire safety - more indirectly, because it avoids the use of extension cords. If you wire your breaker box properly, and wire your outlets and switches properly, then you're extremely unlikely to have a safety problem.
I will say that I did make two errors - one: my stove has a bracket in the back that has a 4 inch large screw. Son of a bitch - when I angled that screw downward near the floor, I managed to have it angled just right to nail the wiring for the microwave. Had nothing to do with the wiring; more bad luck with installing the stove. The other blunder was a last second wiring decision. I KNEW I needed to run another line from a junction box in the attic to the light over the sink. Somehow, the thought popped into my head, "wait, there's still room (to code) in this nearby recessed lighting to hook up another light." Idiot - now the sink light can only be on if all the other lights are on. It's still to code, just not what I intended - I wanted that light to be able to be on by itself. I realized the blunder minutes later - and just after I had a few more rows of tongue and groove on the ceiling. I didn't want to risk damaging the ceiling to fix the error, so I'll do it from above when I put new roofing on (probably this fall or next spring.)
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,167
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Well, that kinda was what I was getting at. Around where my friend bought, nearly all of the original homes had K&T, but by the 21st century, most of the homes had been rewired, so those with K&T (or faked rewiring with a K&T backbone) would get significantly lower offers.
GFCI? It would get fairly expensive though, so another plus for rewiring.
I'm no expert, and I'm just guessing, but could this be a warning sign? ie. Could the house have been 60A, later upgraded to 100A with additional outlets added, but without taking the layout of the existing K&T wiring taken into account? If so, then that could make the K&T dangerous and uninsurable.
But like I said, I'm no expert and I'm just guessing.
Hmmm... I think this post demonstrates why one should hire a professional.
highland145
Lifer
- Oct 12, 2009
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Doc, I have the ability to learn the wiring code. I wired my shop lights/outlets but I don't live out there. So if it burned down I'd be upset but nothing like the house. There is a reason that the state requires electricians to be licensed. I'd guess trusting google-fu isn't on their exam.
I called the city today and verified that I can do DIY wiring replacement with a permit provided it's up to code.
This is something that I hadn't thought of, but I am going to have the electrician verify that nothing is overloaded. Thank you for that!
This is something that I hadn't thought of, but I am going to have the electrician verify that nothing is overloaded. Thank you for that!
The electrician who wired our house before we bought it did a hack job. The service panels were upgraded to modern one with breakers and larger capacity. However he just connected it all to existing knob and tube wiring instead o rewiring everything with romex. He installed 3 prong outlets but the ground prong is not connected to ground.
Yeah it looks like the panel here was done similar. Upgraded the service to 100A, panel to breakers, and then just threw the old K&T in. No outlets were converted however so I know nothing outside of the few things that have romex (like a GFCI near the wash basin or the garage that is rewired) are grounded.
Growing up we had 60A service and it didn't cut it so we switched the 15A Edison fuses out with 20A and some 30A. They still were blowing when we ran electric heaters in the winter. Time delay fuses would kill the power then turn it back on like a mini recloser. Then we tried mini breakers which looked like fuses with a button in the middle that pops out when tripped like the thing in the turkey that tells you it's done.
Not satisfied, putting a penny in the bottom kept the juice on all night. Now I'm no expert on the matter and know this is just plain dumb, but the place never burned down. We had a lightning storm and a bolt hit the pole on the street and FIRE came out of the box and actually pushed the pullout block out a bit! Both legs were open, just clicked in new ones and good to go.
Lost a JC Penny color TV but that was it! If that happened today probably a lot more shit would have given the goose. And before that pesky Westom comes clicking his heels, yes there was a great earthed wire probably 650MCM copper less than 10' from the peterbox...
So yeah you may want to get that shit updated by someone that knows something about wires and sparks!
Our insurance would not even cover an occupied space if it had INACTIVE k&t! That's pretty dumb but whatever. Yet the additions put in in '75 have copper clad aluminum and that is ok. The joys of living in a plantation house!
Not satisfied, putting a penny in the bottom kept the juice on all night. Now I'm no expert on the matter and know this is just plain dumb, but the place never burned down. We had a lightning storm and a bolt hit the pole on the street and FIRE came out of the box and actually pushed the pullout block out a bit! Both legs were open, just clicked in new ones and good to go.
Lost a JC Penny color TV but that was it! If that happened today probably a lot more shit would have given the goose. And before that pesky Westom comes clicking his heels, yes there was a great earthed wire probably 650MCM copper less than 10' from the peterbox...
So yeah you may want to get that shit updated by someone that knows something about wires and sparks!
Our insurance would not even cover an occupied space if it had INACTIVE k&t! That's pretty dumb but whatever. Yet the additions put in in '75 have copper clad aluminum and that is ok. The joys of living in a plantation house!
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
This is how it was at my sister's house as well. Plus they botched the service wire (nicking half way into each strand of aluminum while stripping and of course missing NoAlox)
I have converted ~80% to Romex, waiting to do the rest when she adds on to the house. I'll get around to fixing the service at the time too, and might get her up to a 150A service if I'm worried about the line load.
I'll echo the K&T is not necessarily a bad thing, but don't try to modify it either. Trying to work that old of wire with bad insulation is just asking for trouble. That includes changing devices, you might get lucky and the wire won't crumble, but it is not reliable.
And just
Imp
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2000
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lulz.. That's what the jackass whom daddy hired a decade or two ago did. He swapped the box cause the insurance company required it, but there was no actual ground in all the outlets. Still knob & tube in the walls too.
If you think that "professionals" don't routinely make far worse mistakes, and then just hide the evidence, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of extremely competent professionals out there. But there is almost no way, even as an informed consumer, to tell the difference between a competent professional and a sleazeball who just hasn't been caught yet. Way too many idiots leaving five-star reviews because they liked the price, or the punctuality, or the guy's face, never mind the quality of the work (which most people don't bother to check anyway).
I can't tell you how many times I've had to fix the mistakes that "professionals" have made on housing projects...
Just read the post right above this one and ask how much that guy got paid for the job.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Are you trying to claim you saved $20000 because you did the wiring yourself? $20000 for wiring a kitchen is horrendously overpriced.
I definitely understand that, having gone through a reno myself. It pays to have:
1. Well trained, experienced contractors, with lots of years under their belts. Sometimes it's hard for us to know, I know, but if you find a good general contractors, they can often point you in the right direction for other specific subcontractors like electricians. In fact, last general contractors I've dealt with won't do electrical themselves either. They say they can do it, but feel that it's better left up to master electricians.
2. Time to visit the site regularly, and ask questions. If the contractor can't or won't answer the questions, then it's time to get a new contractor.
3. Everything properly inspected, while the walls are still open. It's a requirement around here anyway.
DrPizza
Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
In my current house, while the former residents lived here (and long before they considered selling it - which they didn't, since they passed on), a "professional" switched the house over from a fusebox (I presume) to a breaker panel. Looking at and inside the junction boxes where the previous box had been, the work is neat enough to presume it was done by a pro. But, most of the wiring in the house wasn't switched over - some of the circuits were that older wiring where there's no blatant difference between which is supposed to be hot & which should be ground. (I.e., not black and white; rather, both wrapped in a fabric type of insulator.) Now, I can tell which wires were put in by the previous homeowner - when he built an addition of two bedrooms, he did a fairly sloppy job inside a junction box in connecting romex to the older type of wiring. Anyway, after the "pro" put in the breaker box: 2 bedrooms with reverse polarity. That's inexcusable by a pro (imho). AND, he made zero effort to balance the load. There were circuits that went to a single outlet. There were circuits that went to a single light in the house. He combined a couple of existing circuits in a junction box (2 or 3 in each junction box), then connected that to the new breaker box. Here's one circuit: EVERY outlet in the kitchen (every bit of electricity to the kitchen *except* the light over the sink. The light over the sink was on its own circuit - and polarity was reverse), the light for the stairs to the basement, plus two lights in the basement, the outlets and light in the bathroom, the outlets in the office, and the outlets in one of the bedrooms. Given the style of Romex that was used, it had to be within about 10 years of us buying the place, so there's no way code would have allowed those circuits to be joined together on one breaker.
I presume it was the homeowner who made these errors: - light in the kitchen was NOT rated for contact with insulation; but was covered with insulation. All of the plastic coating on the wires above the light was melted and fell off at the slightest touch - the ceiling joist was scorched from it. Miracle it hadn't burned down the house. In the basement, I'm not sure what the heck caused it, but 2 runs of romex were overlapped and stapled together on the sill plate. There's a long scorch mark on the sill plate where those wires were. And, an electrical inspector would have had a heart attack if he saw the basement wiring - the guy had a shop & reused old wiring. Old extension cords, cords from appliances, etc., all connected together using wirenuts, and stretched to outlets all over the place. Most outlet boxes not mounted to anything, but just dangling against the walls. The first weekend after we closed, we were putting in all new water supply lines throughout the entire house. Someone bumped one of those boxes, it hit the floor, sparks as it shorted. "Holy shit! That thing is live?!" We were extremely careful finishing the work. Shortly after, I added a new basement circuit for lighting in the basement, then would shut off the rest of the breakers in the house & started cutting out all that old wiring. I still have a lot more wiring changes to do (the bedrooms are still reversed polarity, but other than lamps, electric mattress pad, and alarm clock, they're not used (and occasionally a vacuum.) - that job will wait until I gut those bedrooms and the office to turn the 3 rooms into a master bedroom/bath with walk-in closet.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Well, that would never have passed inspection anyway.
Have you pulled all the permits, and got it all inspected? If so, then OK, but I see too many people claiming they know how to do it, and then never bother getting any permits or getting anything inspected.
Have you pulled all the permits, and got it all inspected? If so, then OK, but I see too many people claiming they know how to do it, and then never bother getting any permits or getting anything inspected.
The house service is just the rating for the home from the power company. You can have 2000amp service and still have K&T (safely even.) The individual leg breakers are what count. K&T is only dangerous know because it was often done with cloth wire which has fallen apart and often the lack of neutral and power coloring on the oldest stuff. In theory if the insulation is still good you could just pull grounds to outlets and make them "work." I wouldn't keep it if I was already in there working on stuff. I may not just auto rip it out either though.
mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
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Well here is what will probably end up happening. The sellers I don't think I'll be able to get to agree to an amount in escrow to renovate that. So it will be DIY which I'm ok with and the city allows (provided it's obviously up to code).
Now I don't need the whole house redone to move in there, just the room I'm going to use for an office and the living room for TV/electronics. However I do have a feeling that once I start on it I'll find one circuit goes to many things and it isn't going to simply be an easy one room at a time project. But the upstairs is going to be unused space at first so I don't need to wire that right away, and the master bedroom also doesn't need it right away since I won't have a TV in there or more than alarm clock and phone chargers. And the office is over the unfinished side of the basement which will be easy to get to. The living room is over the finished side unfortunately so I'll probably need to take down some drywall to replace.
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