House with knob and tube wiring

[DisgruntledVirus]

I've put in an offer on a house and everything is going well. I did the home inspection today which revealed that about 90% of the home is wired with knob and tube. Having worked in the home insurance previously, I know that this can be a problem. So the question becomes do I ship it back to the sellers saying that they have to replace it before releasing the home inspection contingencies or do I get the home and redo the wiring at that point (with an electrician friend)? This is obviously assuming an insurance provider will insure it, which is up for debate since the attic has blow-in insulation that is surrounding the K&T wiring which is a no-no.

Anybody have any thoughts?

 

[fstime]

I would throw a lower offer at the owners with your explanation and have the work done yourself.

I would want the work done by my own electrician to my own standards.

 

[xSauronx]

i wouldnt rewire a house to sell it, were i the owner. a lower offer is the way to go. are the walls plaster and lathe, too? thats a pain in the ass, some friends just re-did part of a house with plaster and lathe walls and knob and tube wiring and it was a huge pain in the ass.

 

[MotionMan]

1. Get an extension on the contingency.

2. Bring in the three biggest rip-off electricians in town (your real estate agent should know who they are) and have them give you written estimates for the job.

3. Ask for the average of all the estimates or middle estimate as a reduction or credit on the price of the home. the seller will likely give you the lowest estimate.

4. Buy home and get the work done.

MotionMan

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

I would throw a lower offer at the owners with your explanation and have the work done yourself.

I would want the work done by my own electrician to my own standards.

That's the route I'd probably go. But it's a decent out of pocket up front cost to do it, which is why I was thinking about having it done prior to move in.

i wouldnt rewire a house to sell it, were i the owner. a lower offer is the way to go. are the walls plaster and lathe, too? thats a pain in the ass, some friends just re-did part of a house with plaster and lathe walls and knob and tube wiring and it was a huge pain in the ass.

This was also a concern as I doubt they would rewire it either. I don't think they are plaster walls and believe they are drywall, but I forgot to check today. I'm 95% sure they are drywall.

1. Get an extension on the contingency.

2. Bring in the three biggest rip-off electricians in town (your real estate agent should know who they are) and have them give you written estimates for the job.

3. Ask for the average of all the estimates or middle estimate as a reduction or credit on the price of the home. the seller will likely give you the lowest estimate.

4. Buy home and get the work done.

MotionMan

Not a horrible idea.

Is it worth the added work to get it in the contract? I personally believe it is, but figure others might have more experience.

 

[MotionMan]

Is it worth the added work to get it in the contract? I personally believe it is, but figure others might have more experience.

There should be a form for such things that makes it part of the contract. In California they use an "Addendum".

Ask your agent.

MotionMan

 

[sjwaste]

I'd ask for a credit that is absolutely sure to cover the rewire or I'd walk away. It's 2013, I see no reason to purchase and move into a home that still has knob and tube wiring. Purchase, sure, but not move into. And yes, I'd do it as an addendum to the contract. I'm sure your realtor has a form. Get some estimates and go from there.

 

[highland145]

I'd ask for a credit that is absolutely sure to cover the rewire or I'd walk away. It's 2013, I see no reason to purchase and move into a home that still has knob and tube wiring. Purchase, sure, but not move into. And yes, I'd do it as an addendum to the contract. I'm sure your realtor has a form. Get some estimates and go from there.

Cost me $5K in my little 1937 house. No way the OP should try and cover it. Insurance, most likely, won't.

 

[T9D]

I'm sure it was already known and priced in with the home price. I hate when I sell a home and people are alike.....well this and that we found and want paid. Like 3 freaking weeks into it. Well that was already obvious before you offered and it's in the paperwork and disclosures, the whole reason the house was $20k lower was because of that. I didn't negotiate and they bought the house. I threw in some minor things here and there I'd fix myself though. But that's why I say no refunds of earnest money after 3 weeks. You get it inspected soon and make a decision. People will try to drag crap out for a long time so you'll do stuff just to finally get it closed. I really think it's a sleazy tactic.

 

[Imp]

Cost me $5K in my little 1937 house. No way the OP should try and cover it. Insurance, most likely, won't.

More than double that for our 1915-ish house.

 

[DrPizza]

Cost me $5K in my little 1937 house. No way the OP should try and cover it. Insurance, most likely, won't.

Cost me about $250 in my moderately sized house from the same era. The difference between do it yourself & hiring someone is amazing.

Anyway, knob and tube wiring isn't inherently dangerous. In fact, it's quite safe. The problem is that it's inadequate for today's needs.

 

[Greenman]

Lead and asbestos should be a greater concern than knob and tube wiring.

 

[Triumph]

Why all the hate for knob and tube? If you need more power, add more lines, don't go tearing up the old house to remove something that has obviously worked fine for what, the 75 years that it has been there?

But yeah, nothing wrong with squeezing the seller for more money, that's the whole point of negotiations. I'd squeeze for money then not do the work after I bought it.

 

[jaedaliu]

Cost me about $250 in my moderately sized house from the same era. The difference between do it yourself & hiring someone is amazing.

Anyway, knob and tube wiring isn't inherently dangerous. In fact, it's quite safe. The problem is that it's inadequate for today's needs.

Yeah, like when the rental agent tells you that the apartment you're renting has completely upgraded electrical lines, so I run an air conditioner from the nearest outlet. Only to lose power to half the apartment.

I'd throw in something to the OP about how if it can't be insured, it's not passing inspection, so don't buy until it's been addressed satisfactorily, but there are lots of good replies already.

 

[bruceb]

Get a credit for the work that will need to be done. A pro electrician can charge about $6K or more for that job, including removing all the knob and tube and being sure no live wires are still in the walls. Also on a home that old, you will need a new 200Amp electric panel, meter and wires to the utility company. Knob and Tube must be removed as it has the potential for in wall fires and the old outlets are not and can not be converted to grounded outlets. So from a safety standpoint, it has to go.

 

[highland145]

Cost me about $250 in my moderately sized house from the same era. The difference between do it yourself & hiring someone is amazing.

Burn my house down and/or kill my family because of some dumb ass mistake and have insurance refuse to pay....I'll pass. I did upgrade the service panel but that was inspected and approved. Saved about $1K.

 

[jaedaliu]

Burn my house down and/or kill my family because of some dumb ass mistake and have insurance refuse to pay....I'll pass. I did upgrade the service panel but that was inspected and approved. Saved about $1K.

If you can wire a panel, you can upgrade your wiring. Well, moot point. Your wiring is already done.

 

[highland145]

If you can wire a panel, you can upgrade your wiring. Well, moot point. Your wiring is already done.

It was just replacing the meter box, the wire into the meter box and going out to the inside panel. Some work but really only 6 lug nuts. Wiring a house to code, how many wall plugs, wire gauge, what requires a dedicated circuit (microwave, bathroom), ground faults.......I don't have the knowledge.

 

[Aharami]

Burn my house down and/or kill my family because of some dumb ass mistake and have insurance refuse to pay....I'll pass. I did upgrade the service panel but that was inspected and approved. Saved about $1K.

If you have it inspected, there should be no issue with diy

 

[Number1]

Knob and tube, wow, I had to look it up. How old is the house?
The type of wiring in the house would/should have been disclosed in the real estate listing so I wonder why suddenly it's "discovered" in the house inspection?

 

[bruceb]

If you have it inspected, there should be no issue with diy

This is probably correct in most cases. I would also suggest, if you do it yourself, be sure and get any needed permits from your city / town / village. The insurance company can not complain, if you did all the work in the manner it should be done in.

 

[Aharami]

This is probably correct in most cases. I would also suggest, if you do it yourself, be sure and get any needed permits from your city / town / village. The insurance company can not complain, if you did all the work in the manner it should be done in.

right, that's what I meant. Getting all necessary permits before work begins, and getting it fire/electrical/etc inspected by township inspectors throughout the duration of the work.

 

[SunnyD]

If you have it inspected, there should be no issue with diy

AFAIK, where I live you can't even touch electrical without a license.

Yeah, I want to put in a few pot lights in my kitchen and a few pendants over the bar. Not a terribly difficult task... but I haven't done it because I don't have the money to pay a licensed contractor to do it, and it won't get signed off on without a licensed contractor doing it.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Cost me about $250 in my moderately sized house from the same era. The difference between do it yourself & hiring someone is amazing.

Anyway, knob and tube wiring isn't inherently dangerous. In fact, it's quite safe. The problem is that it's inadequate for today's needs.

I sent a PM asking about more information on this as it was the original plan to re-do the wiring myself.

Lead and asbestos should be a greater concern than knob and tube wiring.

Lead in this area on a home of this age is basically a guarantee, although there was a lot of work to redo the home which might have removed the lead. In either case, unless I start licking the walls it isn't a big deal (especially since I don't have kids). Asbestos is a concern as you mention, however from what is visible it does not appear to have any in the home. Without ripping things up you can't know for sure though.

Why all the hate for knob and tube? If you need more power, add more lines, don't go tearing up the old house to remove something that has obviously worked fine for what, the 75 years that it has been there?

But yeah, nothing wrong with squeezing the seller for more money, that's the whole point of negotiations. I'd squeeze for money then not do the work after I bought it.

A few issues with K&T. One is no grounding which is a major concern of mine as I have a lot of things using a ground (electronics). Second is sure it's worked fine for the 60+ years since it was probably originally installed, however K&T becomes brittle (more accurately the insulation does) and that's when problems start. Then there is the question of if it was 1) installed correctly and 2) has it been modified since (and if it has was it done properly). Finally the house has blown in insulation in the attic which covers parts of the wiring, that can cause fires according to the insurance industry.

K&T works fine if a lot of conditions are met: 1) it was installed correctly, 2) it was not modified from install, or if it was then it was done properly, 3) there isn't insulation covering the wiring which prevents it from dispersing the heat that it needs to dissipate, and 4) it isn't overloaded which is possible with the electrical demands of today.

 

[twinrider1]

Cost me about $250 in my moderately sized house from the same era. The difference between do it yourself & hiring someone is amazing....

Does that price include the permit and inspection? :biggrin: